Castings

[HarryJ]

Recently I have been looking into recasting cylinder blocks for "L" model Lincolns, as the originals have been allowed to freeze and crack plus even if they have been well cared for they tend to rust out from the inside. I would like to know if anyone has explored recasting blocks for early automobiles and what has been their experience. Given the great advancement in metalurgical science since WWII, what is the best alloy, should I explore investment casting, or stick with modern sand casting with modern sands? Is there a technology that can laser read the exterior of an exsisting casting into a computer then feed it to a robotic mill which will adjust for cooling shrinkage and carve out an investment wax copy that can be cast; or can a set of patterns be produced from a CAD system to quickly facilitate custom casting parts in small quantities? Are there CAD or other systems out there that can mill out parts that duplicate die castings of the past? Obviously, these need to be somewhat cost effective.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Hi, Harry...WOW!! What a plate full.

It's getting late here. I'll digest your post tomorrow and get back.

I have been in the green sand foundry/machining business for 32 years and will tap my staff's resources, too.

Regards,

Peter J. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest stude8]

I know of a person in Vermont who has successfully recast some early Duesenberg inline 4 cylinder race engine blocks but it was a very expensive project and had the resources of an experienced pattern maker after dissecting a donor block to determine water and oil gallery cavities.

I am sure a Laser scan / data entry system exists but the hourly rate would be only acceptable with a NASA budget.

A now deceased friend worked for a major exhaust pipe manufacturer and we had access to their "Tracer" system that followed the contour of a sample pipe and documented every angle and change in direction from end to end then logged the data into a reproducer file that then made an exact copy of the orginal pipe on a CNC tube bender machine. Neat way to make your 1930 pipes in stainless. Stude8

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Hi, Harry...sorry it took so long to respond.

Breaking down your questions by line item:

--My company has not explored re-casting/reproducing cylinder blocks. It is not within our market niche (we produce a wide range of grey iron and ductile iron castings up from ozs-to-200#.

--Alloy for blocks: ASTM A-159-83. This is a Class 30 (30,000 p.s.i.) grey iron with a pealitic microstructure suitable for automotive blocks, flywheels, heads, pistons, medium duty brake drums, and, clutch plates for example.

--Investment Castings: Produce a very accurate casting as compared to sand castings which have as-cast tolerances of .030 +/- up to 4" length, .045 +/- up to 6" lengths, .060 up to 12" length, and, progressive.

The problem with investment castings is recouping the cost of the dies. You would have to have a large volume production run to justify it to my knowledge.

--Sand castings, as we produce, I would think the best route. Our average pattern equipment runs:

Metal plate with a urethane impression: $3-7,000

One corebox in urethane with wood backing: $2-5,000 (oil or gas sand)

Metal plate tool steel pattern: $10-12,000 on average

Cast Iron corebox: $8-10,000 (for shell cores to withstand the natural gas heat.

Now, for a cylinder block, which, is heavily cored, the cost is higher. If you plan to start out with a small pace, you could look at Wood Patterns & Coreboxes. To find a foundry to run them could be a task, but, short run foundries are still around, for now.

--We do not have laser in our pattern/engineering departments. Rather, we do "reverse engineering" constantly. Take a sample of a casting, take all dimensions off the casting, usually using a print, or, CAD Model provided by the customer. When the 3-D computer model is finished, it is transferred to the CNC mills and the pattern, or, corebox is cut from tool steel. We have also done this with urethanes.

To cut a wax copy to be used in investment castings is a norm. However, cost.

CAD Systems are great. You can have a sand casting machined out of stock to replicate it, however, again, depending on the complexities of the part, cost goes up. In all the cases I cite, except wood patterns, the engineering (modeling) time is a major cost factor.

--Here is a concept, of which, worked out well for some Cord Club folks quite a few years ago:

A nice gent stopped by the office holding an exhaust manifold for a Cord auto. Asked if we could reproduce it. Told him about the pattern costs and he was a little pale at that point.

Suggested he go back to his fellow club members (customers in your case) and see how many people were in need of the manifold. He did his homework, having gone to other Cord owners who wanted some for possible future needs. Anyway, he came up with about 70, or, so, people, hit them for $100 each, ordered the patterns, and, we made the castings. They were a happy bunch of guys, I'll tell you.

Based upon this scenario, find out how many people have a need for the cylinder heads, or, possbibly in the future. Hypothetically, you find 30-40 customers, take a down payment for their casting order to include amortizing the pattern cost into the casting cost.

I do not know if any of this helps, but, it could open more dialogue.

Regards,

Peter J. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[HarryJ]

Hi Peter.........Wow, This is alot of information to digest! I grew up in Birmingham, Ala. and was arround foundries, steel mills, blast furnaces, forges etc. It seems that there should be a way to reproduce castings at a cost that is somewhat affordable. You mention ASTM A-159-83 as the type of iron for casting blocks; I read that Hudson used a type of iron in the early fifties that was superior to previous types ~ possibly with some nickle in it. Is the ASTM-159-83 better than this? I talked to a gentleman out in Texas or Oklahoma that ran a foundry and machine works that supposedly did work for Caterpillar,manufacturing castings on small runs. He indicated that in order to manufacture a casting such as an engine block drawings would have to be created and patterns produced. Once this process was complete, the actual casting process would be easy and somewhat inexpensive. I figured if the pattern cost could be reduced parts could be reproduced at a reasonable cost. This is why I thought about lasers and CNC proceses. Given that I am willing to pay the costs to manufacture say 500 engine blocks what would be the price, prior to machining? How many copies is the pattern good for? I am intent in figuring this problem out, because as time passes more and more cast parts for older automobiles will be required to keep them on the road. All of these will be required in small quantities. It seems we need to develope methods to address this issue.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Hi, Harry...

In the 1940's - 50's era, phosporous in engine blocks was around .1% from what I have found. Problem with such a high level of Ph is eventual, or, the possibility of eventual cracking of the casting. (In the early 90's, my company made a mission of reducing the Ph to .01% as we had industrial casting complaints about castings cracking, either during the vibration of machining, or, actually in the field cases. It was not rampant, however, we saw a trend and took proactive measures.

--Chrome: Today's engine castings incorporate a high level of chrome for the wear characteristics. As for my industrial castings, we do not want to see "any of it"!!! Difference: Our customer base is not automotive, rather, industrial pumps, gear boxes, valves, etc. Chrome in my iron would have me on the road fielding machining complaints until I die.

Chrome has also changed the scrap scene for my foundries. At one time, we utilized quite a bit of broken (crushed) engine blocks and heads. As the automotive folks increased the chrome levels to unacceptable heights, we had to cease using this scrap.

ASTM A-159-83: Fine in my opinion, however, with a high chrome content. You mentioned Hudson innoculating Nickel. I know nothing about this, but, the chrome scenario I mentioned.

--As I mentioned earlier, I have to agree with your friend who did work for "Cat" that prints would be mandatory. If prints were not available, re: what I mentioned about "reverse engineering", of which, a sample head would have to be sectioned after the O.D. dimensions were taken, to obtain the I.D. dimensions, especially, for the internal cored passageways.

--As for "raw" casting price of a cylinder head, I cannot venture to say. Foundry quotes are, in fact, time consuming, as I have done them many times. Each casting has its particulars. The molding and core machines to make the part have to be studied, size of casting and pattern to the applicable molding line, gating & risering come into play as they take up a lot of room on a pattern, the mold yield ($$$)is critical, and, so on...

Pattern life (number of castings generated), all depends on the pattern material. Sand moldings is abrasive. We have metal, and, urethane patterns that have withstood 90,000-120,000 cycles on "automatic molding lines". Now, with a wood pattern, it all depends on configuration (any high profile, sharp corners would naturally wear down more quickly than a flat surface). Wood patterns, properly maintained, and, "from my experience in industrial castings", normally last about 2-300 molds in "manual molding" before major maintenance, patching, filling in fillet cracks. Wood patterns also have to be stored in a cool, dry area. Don't have to mention that the wood can warp, or, crack just hanging on a hook for a 1-2 years.

Harry, I will private e-mail to you the name of one of our metallurgists, who, is extremely experienced in heavily cored castings. I am not intentionally slighting anyone reading this thread as I can not take the liberty of plastering his name and phone number all over the web. Should Harry opt to phone him, it becomes our responsiblitiy (Harry's and mine) to share the information my people can suggest on this thread to our AACA members.

Regards,

Peter J. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Sorry, folks...forgot "Cores".

If wood coreboxes are used, I would highly suggest "Oil Sand" cores.

Should CO-2 cores be used, it is imperative that the "sugar" content be around 25%. The sugar assists in the core breaking down. With little, or, no sugar, you would have a nightmare trying to chisel out the remaining core once the casting cooled. Actually, you would be lucky to even access it in a coolant passageway, let alone chisel it out.

Oil Sand cores break down nicely to create a free and clear passageway.

The most desired coring method for blocks, heads, exhaust manifolds, etc., is "shell cores". The automotive guys have used them for years, as well as my plants. Shell sand breaks down nicely, generates a great finish. Cost is the question: Our shell coreboxes are all out of machined tool steel to withstand the temperatures of natural gas heat.

Regards,

Peter J.

[Guest imported_oldmitchell]

Harry, Harold Coker in Tn. has been doing castings for folks for several years now. I have seen his castings and they are very nice. Bear in mind that what you will get is a raw casting. EVERYTHING will have to be machined and is very expensive. If you decide to pursue any of this contact me and I will point you toward local Atl. machinists that can help with this.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Hi, Harry...

I have been pondering this for awhile. Must have had a short circuit in the 'ole memory bank...

At one time, we worked with a Marine Manifold specialty account. Marine manifolds are about the most devilish of castings (some 2-4 feet in length with very narrow cooling chambers/passageways.

My company ventured into supplying the shorter length versions, a lot of researching, sampling, then, came to the realization, it was not our area of expertise.

During the above exercise, our customer was dealing with Decatur Foundry, Decatur, Illinois, of whom, specialized in heavily cored castings.

Go on line to "Decatur Foundry" and see what they can do. With the quantities you plan to produce, and, Decatur's utilization of wood patterns could be the solution to your project.

Hope it works out. I will keep pounding the memory bank.

Regards,

Peter J. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Harry...Are you out there somewhere?

Just wondering if you checked out Decatur Foundry, or, ?

Some effort was extended by a few of us into assisting with your query, just wondering. Extend a little courtesy with a response...

Would be nice for an update on your project so it retains attention and respect, of which, will continue to generate interest, especially, as you put it, there will be a problem with "casting sources" for the future hobbyist.

Thanks in advance,

Peter

[HarryJ]

Peter...I apologise for the delay, several other issues have taken precedent in my life. I spoke to the gentleman at your foundry who was quite helpful, and had meant to contact you directly; however, I have been covered up with fighting a rezoning near me, trying to make a living, and getting a business off the ground I recently purchased. These are my excuses. By the way, I spoke with Bluetaxi from the Studebaker site who was inquiring about recasting aluminum heads for Studebaker light sixes. This gentleman is a friend of mine.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Great, Harry...

As you appropriately mentioned previously, replacement castings is and will continue to be a critical availability issue with this hobby.

Let's keep this going within our capabilities for the current and future old car nuts.

Have to put in a plug for the "Search" icon within the header for anyone reading this thread. Castings (Exhaust manifolds, heads, odd-ball parts) has been discussed at length over the years, and, the very interesting comments, or, experiences of many knowledgeable forum participants sits there awaiting your view. (Not just castings...whatever your query, check it out.)

Regards,

Peter.

[HarryJ]

Thanks Peter.......I would like to work out a way to more efficiently poduce castings.

[HarryJ]

Oldmitchell........Thanks for your reply. Read my excuse above, I will contact Mr. Coker when things slow down.

[A. Woolf]

Here is a company that has an interesting looking casting process. It appears that it might be suited to small production runs. I have no experience or knowlege of the company. Someone just pointed me to their website.

Soligen

ASW

[Guest Ken G]

I wish I had known about Soligen three or four years ago. My cousin needed new aluminum pistons for the Rover that I now own, and eventually had them turned from the solid. Soligen's technique would have produced closer replicas to the originals, and possibly less expensively. Has anyone actually any experience of Soligen?

Ken G, 1925 Rover 16/50 (San Francisco)

[A. Woolf]

For pistons there is a better option. Ross Pistons custom makes forged pistons at a very reasonable cost. A friend had a set made for his 1914 Chalmers and he was happy with the product.

ASW

[HarryJ]

A.WOOLF.......This is amazing technology! Thanks for the referal. I am going to look into this further.

[HarryJ]

Peter....Well Christmas is behind us, I hope you and yours had a great one. In the interim I have been trying to do some studying on the matter of the casting issue including reviewing the "Search" section as you suggested, rereading your comments and trying to gain some additional knowledge through the internet by reading some papers posted on "The Iron Casting Research Institute" web site. I must admit I am getting a knowledge base that is probably more dangerous than helpful. I intend to contact both Decatur Foundry and Soligen Inc. in the next week or two if life gives me the pleasure. I am some what leery about signing up buyers for products (like the Cord example) I can't reasonably guarantee delivery on. I have on the other hand, polled "L" Lincoln owners to an extent that I feel there is a demand for the product. As with all products, price will be a strong determinent in the number and velocity of sales. I am prepared to fund an initial production run if the costs can be contained within certain levels. The important point is to get a system in place to produce quality castings to supply a small market at a reasonable cost. I feel if we and others put our heads together this can become a reality.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Hi, Harry. Likewise, hope you had a great Holiday.

When I get back to the grind after 1/1, I will be tabling running old auto restoration castings with Don, and, all of my management. At least I peaked Don's attention to the problems past, present, and, future hobbyist are facing.

I will be back on this topic soon.

Regards,

Peter J. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[HarryJ]

Peter/everybody...........I spoke to gentleman with Soligen, and am to send him pictures and dimensions to give Soligen an idea of what I would like cast. He said CAD models would have to be produced. Once these are produced, patterns can be fabricated. Also, once the pattern is digitized, copies can easily be made any time in the future.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Sounds great, Harry...keep us posted on various aspects along the way. I will continue, likewise, on my end to keep you folks up to speed on the venture with my company.

Regards,

Peter J. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[HarryJ]

Peter/everybody..........I spoke with the folks at Decatur Foundry; as with Soligen they need pictures and a basic description of the part to be cast in order to talk with me. In the next week or two I am going to prepare a package to foward both companies. I will try to post it on this site.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Hi, Harry...

Great news forthcoming. Had some rather high profile meetings with my company's management this week. We are already producing industrial castings that are in the same environment as "old car" castings. We have made heavy truck replacement parts for years, so, this is a known to us.

Again, we have been reverse engineered many castings.

The owners of Donsco see the need of we hobbyist and gave me free rein to go for it, not to mention the blank checks.

Will keep you posted.

Regards,

Peter J. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[HarryJ]

Peter......I will foward you a copy of the package I am preparing for prelimanary quotes. I invite Donsco to make comment and quote.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Thank you, Harry...we'll take a good look at it and get back. Will keep everyone informed within this thread so all can learn.

As noted above, sources for replacement castings are steadily deminishing within the foundry business. It would be to your benefit to include as much as possible information to assure accuracy in part replication:

--Most of our industrial customers send in CAD Models, prints, or, samples. For the hobbyist, these items are more than likely unavailable, or, not practical. In lieu of the aforementioned, as many digital or 35-mm shots from "all angles" would be great.

--Dimensions: As many as you can provide. This is important.

--Part weight: Extremely important for accurate quote. Most foundries will over-estimate the weight to keep themselves covered should you send in a "guesstimated weight". Find a way to weigh the part.

--Do you have an extra part, or, a broken part that could be used possibly as the molding impression? Extra/broken part that the foundry could slice up to make it easier and more efficient to obtain internal dimensions (cored areas).

--Quantities: To drive down any pattern shop work, pattern costs, again, contact friends, marque club members, etc. If your 1909 Watchamacallit needs an exhaust manifold, chances are more than likely another owner would want one.

There will always be an old auto owner who needs just one casting, I fully realize this and we'll assist them as best we can. Keep in mind, just because it is a casting does not guarantee it will be conducive to any one foundry. (A parallel example: Our casting weight range is ozs-to-220# =/-. Send in a 300# casting quote request and we will "no-quote" it. There are other foundries set up to handle heavier parts.)

Again, we are and have been set up to assist the hobbyist. In the process of introducing my guys to what old auto hobbyist are all about, our hobby's long range problems to keep the autos on the road, and, so on.

Have accumulated some manifold photos to inform them of the wide range of part designs that could come down the pike.

This tread will remain in the Tech Questions area as its sole purpose is to assist all of us with an increasingly important facit, of which, many have inquired over the years. With the ever depleting resources, especially, salvage yards, we must address the growing problem now.

Regards,

Peter J. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[HarryJ]

Peter/everybody.....Just today I took 48 pics of the block and have started to get up some dimensions to create rough drawings. Thanks for the pointer as to the weight, I was wondering about this. These blocks have 5 core requirements that seem somewhat complex. I will try to describe them as best as I can in the drawings. This project may take some time; but, if we all put our heads together it might become possible. Yes, I have 2 blocks that can be sacrificed (cracked beyond repair) to cut up; allowing closer inspection of the interior sections. As to quantities, I feel 200 to 400 units would meet the needs for the immediate future.

[Guest Kestas]

If I may jump in here, I'd like to present some information for reference. Ford Motor Company recently embarked on reproducing one of the original Model T's. Their goal was to make six copies. As noted in the previous postings, the engine block is typically the most difficult (and expensive) part to reproduce on any antique vehicle. They used medical imaging techniques to get a 3D snapshot of the block, which was then (somehow) converted to print.

I've also seen reverse engineering methods used at Roush Racing in Livonia, MI, and at Daimler-Chrysler to model formed parts and produce patterns that can be used in sand molds. One of the methods involves laser scanning. The patterns are made by building up paper-based layers that are laser-cut. I don't think these methods can handle parts that need cores.

[Guest bkazmer]

stereolithography (fancy name for 3-D models from slices) can handle cores. Think about an engine block cut in horizontal slices. If there is an internal hollow spot, slices above and below are solid, slices in that area have a hole. Stack-em up.

[HarryJ]

Kestas.....Thanks, The Soligen system is based on the MRI/printing technology you have heard about. I would like to know more about the laser technology you mentioned.

[HarryJ]

Here are some pics of the block I am attempting to have cast.

Here is #1 of 4.

[HarryJ]

Here are some pics of the block I am attempting to have cast.

Here is #2 of 4.

[HarryJ]

Here are some pics of the block I am attempting to have cast.

Here is #3 of 4.

[HarryJ]

Here are some pics of the block I am attempting to have cast.

Here is #4 of 4.

[HarryJ]

Picture #1 is of a look perpendiculiar to the machined top of the casting. The "L" Lincoln was equiped with a 384.8 ci V-8 in 1928; two indentical 4 cyl cast iron blocks bolted to an aluminum crankcase. The engine was originally designed by Henry Leland and his engineers in 1920. When first introduced it was 3 3/8" bore displacing 357.8 ci. The "L" Lincoln was produced from 1921 to 1930 inclusive, with running engineering improvements. Picture #2 is a bottom end view, valve guide, water jacket, and exhaust port views. Picture #3 shows the block laying on it's side showing the bolting flange and the water jacket connection. Picture #4 shows a perspective of the overall unit. There are five cores required to produce this block.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Good photos, Harry.

Printed them out and will hold a meeting with my people this week.

Have you checked the actual weight? One of the samples you have would be great to actually see how we would "tie" the cores together internally. This is important from a quoting standpoint as 5 separate cores would be more expensive than say 3, if we can eliminate 2 coreboxes via CAD modeling and pattern layout.

Will be back on here this week.

Regards,

Peter J. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest Kestas]

The laser scanning involves an articulated arm referenced to a base, such as a table or car parked next to it. The laser light sweeps back and forth very quickly over the contour of the part. The line produced by the sweep is recorded and referenced in all three (X, Y, Z) directions. It's like a person taking pencil to paper and scribbling back and forth. I imagine once the lines are dense enough, the computer can produce an electronic planar part.

Roush uses this technology to scan a car into a computer and perform crash simulations to determine weak points for their clients. The cars I saw worked on were production vehicles bought from dealers, stripped of all trim, and were in their "body-in-white" condition.

Again, I was given only a one-hour demonstration by a colleague.

[EdA]

Looks like you've got some good leads here in USA, but I thought you might like to check out a vendor who has experience in casting head for very old and very expensive cars. I just bought a newly cast head for my 1934 Rolls Royce from Finnes in the UK. This was to replace the badly cracked original cast iron head. They produce several models of heads for the vintage Rolls Royces out of modern alloys. You might want to contact them for some information on what they use and how they prepared original molds. Their work is top rank - very smooth surfaces, well machined, clean water passages - really looks as if Rolls Royce had made it. Look at their site http://www.fiennes.co.uk/ .

Best wishes on success.

Ed Albert 1934 Rolls Royce 20/25 hp

[HarryJ]

EdA....Thanks for the lead. I will try to contact these folks for a quote also. I have heard of these English Co.'s that reproduce early technologies at an afordable rate.

[Tom M]

It would be great if they can do this for any head or block.

I use a cad program for piping models so it should not be that difficult to create a cad model if you can get all the dimensions off the original block.

Here is a site for 3D Modeling

You will have to login to see tour....