Oldsmobile Demise

[Dynaflash8]

In case you don't think the world is changing, did you ever think you'd live to see Oldsmobile go the way of Auburn, Graham, Hupmobile and Packard? I sure didn't.

[Guest BruceW]

With the hierchy of GM (least to most expensive):<P>Chevrolet<BR>Pontiac<BR>Oldsmobile<BR>Buick<BR>Cadillac<P>I would not have thought that the mid range price Oldsmobile would be the one to get the ax. I kinda thought if GM was to discontinue a make, it would either be Pontiac (because of its closeness to Chevrolet price range) or Buick (because of its closeness to Cadillac range). Then again..I don't get paid the big bucks to make such descisions.<P>Ooops! I should never have said that about Buick while Mr. Beauchamp is still recovering!

[Dynaflash8]

Tis okay Bruce. I suspect they kept Cadillac so the Politicians would have a car to drive, and Buick for the old white haired guys who can't step up to Cadillac, and Pontiac for the teeny-boppers who like to drive fast and whip in and out of traffic and Chevrolet for the anti-Ford fanatics. I guess Olds was splitting it's fandom between the teeny-boppers and the old folks. And further, last year there was no big Olds for us old folks.

[Guest BruceW]

The Oldsmobile was a car with a lot of history behind it. Just a few bits of its history include:<P>Oldsmobile was Michigan's first automobile manufacturer with a factory built specifically for the production of automobiles.<P>The 1901 Curved Dash Olds was the first massed produced automobile.<P>The 1901 Oldsmobile was the first automobile to feature a speedometer.<P>Oldsmobile introduced the first fully automatic transmisison in 1937.<P>The 1949 Olds 88 is considered by many to be the first real muscle car.<P>Prior to its recent demise, Oldsmobile was the oldest car brand still in operation.

[John N. Packard]

Could the culprit here be proliferation of models across the product lines? You can essentially buy most every GM model in each line. Same is true of Chrysler and Ford.<P>jnp

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

Amen John. One of my co-workers not-so-affectionately refers to his '99 Ranger as a Mazda. You have to get real close to tell the difference. Close enough to read the name.

[Dynaflash8]

Bruce: I think the first real muscle car was the 1941 Buick straight 8 with dual two-barrel carburetors and ram-air induction

[Guest SalG (Sal Grenci)]

Will Pontiac be next? I have thought that GM had too many look alike cars for years. You can not take the same body and just change chrome, grill and tail light, and possiblely the hood and call it a different car with a gib $ increase forever. SalG

[Dave@Moon]

G.M. has gone from 60% of the American car market to 29% in less than a quarter century. If this were a beer manufacturer we'd all be sitting around waiting for the inevitable take-over bid. Autoweek today reported G.M.'s loss on keeping Olds afloat for the last year to be $120 million, which apparantly has been in keeping with it's losses over the last few years. <P>We've had a very strong thread discussing this issue on the BCA side of this forum for the past 2 weeks now under the name "Buick/Oldsmobile". I encourage everyone to stop by and take a peek. I just posted message #59 on it.<P>What truly amazes me about this whole thing is the seeming lack of interest from much of the Oldsmobile collector car community. I checked out several Olds forums (forii?) and found almost no reaction. The biggest one I know of, at classicar.com, had one thread with 5 postings a week after the announcement. <P>I can't believe how little play this is getting in the hobbiest and general press as well. Autoweek covered the whole thing in a 1/2 page sidebar. <P>Is it just me, or is Oldsmobile not getting it's due here? I seem to remember a good deal more interest in the passing of Plymouth last year. Maybe none of these "brands" matter to anyone anymore.<P>(By the way, there are reports in the industry repeated in several magazines now of strong rumors that Daimler wants to pull the plug on <I> the whole </I> of Chrysler car production, leaving Dodge, Chysler and Jeep as truck/commercial manufacturers only (minivans, SUV's and PT Curisers are nominally trucks) <P>p.s. Bruce, on your hierchy you forgot Saturn, whose place in that line has never been clear (probably deliberately so).<p>[This message has been edited by Dave@Moon (edited 12-22-2000).]

[Guest]

Dave, I wonder if the automobile in today's world has not become just a form of transportation and not the love affair it once was. It was once everyman's high tech marvel. Now we are sitting in front of the high tech marvel of the 21st century. <P>Forgive me for getting philosophical on here. Anyone care to follow up on the above thought. ~ Howard

[Guest BruceW]

Mr. Beauchamp,<P>It is interesting what you said on the 1941 Buick straight 8 with dual two-barrel carburetors and ram-air induction. I am not saying you are wrong or that I am an expert on Oldsmobile either. <P>I based my comment on articles that I have read in the past. Just about every book I have read on Oldemobile states that the 1949 Oldsmobile 88 with the 303-cid 135 hp "Rocket" high compression, overhead valve V8 engines are considered the first "muscle car". These engines were evidently contenders in the NASCAR racing circuit.<P>However, I am always open to new information and have been known to be wrong more than once.<P>Mr. Moon,<P>You are correct that I forgot Saturn. I grew up in the 60s and 70s long before Saturn when the only GM makes for decades were the five I listed. Thanks for correcting me on my mistake.<BR>

[Al Smeraldo]

Oldsmobiles, Buicks muscle cars? I thought muscle cars were light cars with big engines. My vote is for the 32 Ford. Any way I'm sorry to see the Olds go.

[Guest BruceW]

HVS<P>I wasn't around in the 30s, 40s and 50s. I am wondering..were the cars then also just a form of transportation? Perhaps the love affair with the automobile was one grown of neccessity? One needed it to go to the store.. to go to work. Maybe its constant need and presence was what developed the love affair.<P>Now as you pointed out, the computer is the high tech marvel where you can shop and even work without leaving your home. Now the need for the automobile is deminishing. Perhaps one day the automobile will be put out to pasture as the horse was when the automobile emerged.<P>Gosh..here I go philosophying now. Guess I better stop before I go sticking my foot in my mouth again.<P>

[Dynaflash8]

Buick developed the "light car, big motor" concept with the introduction of the 1936 Buick Century. They carried that to a high in 1941 and then backed off. Oldsmobile was the next "hot car" in '49 and for awhile reigned in NASCAR, only to be challenged on the NASCAR circuit by none other then Hudson Hornets with a huge six cylinder engine and, again, dual carburetion (H-Power).<BR> According to all I've ever read, America's "Love Affair" with the automobile goes back to the Model T, which for the first time in our history gave the average person "freedom" to come and go, men and women to court somewhat scandously and soforth.<BR> Design and styling took over from mechanical achievement in the 1930s; although these two sciences ran neck and neck into the 1950's when yearly styling changes carried the automobile to its height of desirability among new car buyers.<BR> As for what passes for styling in the year 2000, it's about as exciting as a coke bottle. There is a lot of high tech electrical gadgetry which is kind of neat, but styling, ugh. I just purchased a 2001 Buick Park Avenue out of necessity. It hardly looks any different from the 1991 PA my Dad bought new. It does have gushy power and high gas mileage though.<BR> The PT Cruiser is something that GM could learn from. Build something different and desirable and you won't lose $120million or whatever on an Oldsmobile. Build five versions of the same yuck and some of them won't be able to be sold. <BR> As Howard would say, that's just my opinion.<P> <p>[This message has been edited by Dynaflash8 (edited 12-22-2000).]

[Dynaflash8]

It's part of a great overall loss in America, the loss of interest in and appreciation of TRADITION. The loss of Olds, and Plymouth too, is just the affect of that in the automobile industry. But it's happening all over. Today the question is, "don't tell me what you did for me yesterday, what did you do for me today?"

[IndianaCarGuy]

Blame it on about three generations of corporations who fail to value people, each other, or anything but the almighty dollar.<P>There isn't much you can do to keep people interested in traditions, when they are losing so many everyday. It's enough to make you want to toss out the TV, the computer, and keep a player piano for entertainment. <BR>RS

[86 2dr.ltd]

Wheres Bill Mitchell today. Theres a man with vision and the spine to see it out.Do you realize if these idiots were in charge in the 60's the negetive affect on history it would have made.<P>If you cant bewitch'em with brillance<BR>baffel'em with Bull----<P>Whats the legacy these types are going to leave behind.<P>Nough said

[Guest]

Christmas eve,1944,I got out of my GMC 6 by 6 near Liege.Belgium,We were sent there to prepare the Ford-Powered Sherman tanks to shoot it out with the Krauts.The best 2 engines we had in Europe were the Ford GAA aluminum V8 and the 270 "Jimmy".I was in charge of fixin the "Jimmies so they would RUN.We were subject to court-martial if we disturbed the seal on the governor,so I lifted up the carb and took the throttle plate off the governor.We would come down those mountain so fast I would instinctively pull my feet back!We drove them so hard I expected a flywheel to come up through the floorboards!The "Big Three" made about everything we had in Europe Without our auto industry,we would probably now be saying "Seek Heil" to the man who started the slaughter of 50 million souls.Remember that when you buy your next car! The Old Sarge

[Guest]

Another philosophical musing <P>Historically, what made America great was that we made product and people wanted to come to this country and to be Americans.<P>Today we make hamburgers and shuffle paper.<BR>Making a fine product means nothing to the bean counters, just how much money can be made off of it and with how few people.<P>Corporate leaders are more interested in positioning for the next takeover than they are about making a quality product. Labor becomes cynical and therefore loses incentive to make a good product. <P>Class warfare ensues egged on by the politicians.<P>The people of this country become hyphenated Americans and the land of their origin is placed before the word American.<P>Enough to make you sick isn't it.<P>Bah Humbug! ~ hvs And to all a goodnight.

[Steve Moskowitz]

ok guys. if you want some oldsmobile comments i guess i am the one that should give them. i am one of the 63 remaining exclusive olds dealers, restorer (just finished a 1908), columnist for olds club magazines, historian etc. it really is a very sad time for the hobby and what once was a great company. the curved dash really started america driving and olds has been an innovator ever since. from our days in selling over a million cars to the announcement on the 12th is a long way. we did have great muscle cars with our 4-4-2's and hurst olds (we had linda vaughn, too). i served on oldsmobile's national board for four years just a few years ago and i can tell you that from my perspective as a dealer, hobbyist and 52 years of experience that it would have been impossible to have found more inept people in marketing and advertising than oldsmobile had. almost every article you will read will pretty much concur that we have great products...sadly, the folks at gm just did not know how to go about telling the story. the fact that olds was losing money is somewhat mis-leading as we were not the only car division losing money. figures don't lie but liars figure...i could go on with a whole lot of detail and furthur diatribe but they have broke this guys heart and passion for a great car company. i am assisting olds in restoring several cars presently and help purchase a dozen cars last year. we have been working feverishly at upgrading the collection at oldsmobile and now i wonder what will become of those cars. when bean counters who have no passion for the product start making decisions look out...those that love cars are sadly missing from gm today. for that matter, they are starting to be culled out at other companies to.

[novaman]

Dynaflash8: You are correct except with you question. You posted "Today the question is, "don't tell me what you did for me yesterday, what did you do for me today?". It should be "Today the question is, "don't tell me what you did for me yesterday, what are you going to do for me tomorrow and for the next year?"<p>[This message has been edited by novaman (edited 12-24-2000).]

[Dynaflash8]

Nova I can sing and play the fiddle, but I can't ever remember the words to the songs. So, your comment is right on course for me,

[Steve Moskowitz]

howard, you are right on the money. ron zarella, the guy i blame personally for all the faults with gm amrketing apparently has had the attitude that he wanted all gm people to be loyal to gm. he felt it not in the corp's best interest to have loyalty to olds, caddy etc. when i worked for olds and over the last two decades the olds dealer group as well as the other divisions enjoyed their sense of pride, teamwork and healthy competition between divisions. my guess is that zarella was the last guy to be picked when choosing up sides in school and now is going to make everyone pay! the good people at gm have been mostly driven away and instead there is this cold, passionless group that seems in many cases to be going thru the motions. i hope i am wrong but i can not help but feel that the current path that gm is taking will lead to a monumental downfall for the company. there are a lot of great products due out by the other divisions in the next few years but they still need people to make it "happen." the recent lack of success and failure by several on-line car brokers is a testimony that most people still like getting old-fashion good service with a smile.

[Dynaflash8]

well Howard you might not like C&W either, which is what I sing, on rare occasions. With this injury tho, I may never have enough wind to sing again. <BR>Oldscarnut you scare me. I just bought a new Buick. You make it sound as if it'll go the way of Packard and I'll own an orphan car.<BR>I thouoght I'd switch to Lincoln this time until I drove one. Besides, one of the last things my Dad ever said to me was, "a Lincoln! Humph! You're gonna be a big shot now huh? Every time I even looked at a Lincoln I remembered him saying that.

[Guest]

Earl, I like C&W. And if you are going to live in Wyoming, you better darned well like C&W. Howard<P>PS: You are NOT a Lincoln person. Your dad was right, and don't ever forget it. H<p>[This message has been edited by hvs (edited 12-24-2000).]

[Dave@Moon]

I just posted this information for oldscarnut on the BCA forum, but it bears repeating here, too. According to Autoweek GM has budgeted $5 billion to dismantle the Oldsmobile organization, $2 billion of which is for the settling of lawsuits from former Olds dealers for pulling out on them. <P><I>"....and I say to myself, what a wonderful world. Yes I say to myself, what a wonderful world!" </I>

[Guest]

You know Earl, in the almost 40 years I have known you I have never heard you sing, But you sure can play the fiddle. Howard