Chrysler Engine

[Guest]

I'm looking at an engine with the label: Chrysler Industrial Division. Model #30 1518-1. Its a flathead six that looks like the 218. Is anyone familiar with this engine and where I might find out more about it?

[Jon Robinson]

Dave:

You're right that it looks like a 218, but chances are, it's a Dodge 230. The Model 30 was the small-block Chrysler six that you would ordinarily find in a Dodge or Plymouth. The Model 33 was the big-block Chrysler six found in Chryslers and DeSotos.

The 230 has a 3 1/4" bore and a 4 5/8" stroke.

You can still get complete engine rebuild kits through NAPA Auto Parts stores, Terrill Machine in DeLeon, Texas, or a good forklift repair/supply shop. Because so many of these industrial engines ran on propane, you can get chrome piston rings, hard valve seats, and stainless steel (Stellite) valves. I run all the hard stuff in my 1950 DeSoto with no worries.

JON

[Guest]

Jon, thanks for the info on the chrysler 230 engine, I'll continue to check it out to see if this engine will be a good replacement for the 218 I have in my 36 dodge

Dave

[Jon Robinson]

Dave:

The Industrial 30 should work in your '36 Dodge. (Thanks for keeping your Dodge stock, by the way.) Chrysler brought out the full-length water jackets in 1935, I believe, and the back of the engine block should be the same on the industrial engine and your Dodge's original engine. In fact, depending on the year, the industrial engine may acomodate the later, more modern rear main seal and allow you to eliminate the pesky rope seals that are held against the crank by little C-shaped brackets bolted to the block. Some of the later Chrysler sixes will take either, and the gasket kit usually comes with both.

JON

[Guest]

Jon, again thanks for the help. I going to see this engine again this week. Its going to take a day to dismantle the engine from the hobart welder it is connected to now. I never considered anything but stock for this car, I wish the original engine was still salvageable, but I plan to use all the bolt on parts and keep the engine 6 volt if it works out. My 19 year old son wants flames on the sides but I think not....Dave

[Jon Robinson]

Dave:

My 1950 DeSoto is all stock, too, and I've driven it something like 140,000 miles in 13 years. It crosses the country at least once a year and makes smaller several-hundred-mile trips all the time along with being driven around town quite a bit. I've driven more miles with a Chrysler flathead six and than I have with anything more modern. I've driven more miles with a six-volt system and a generator than I have with anything more modern.

There's only one change I've made to my DeSoto, and I highly recommend you consider with for your Dodge. All of these cars were made at a time when the roads were terrible. Many of these old cars never saw a paved road, and consequently, they have terribly low-geared rear ends in them. The good news is that changing the rear end to one of the same design does not alter the car at all. Your Dodge probably has a 4.11 rear end which will make speeds over about 50 MPH very hard on the long-stroke engine. My DeSoto originally had a 3.90 rear end, and when I changed the differential to a 3.54 unit from a '48 Chrysler, it felt like I rebuilt the whole car. I can't describe the difference reducing the RPM by 10% made. After driving it that way fo a few years, I found a 3.36 rear end from a '57 Dodge, but I couldn't just install the differential in my axle for design reasons, and I had to put the whole rear end assmbly in my car, but even the ouside of it was the same, and it didn't alter the car at all. It just changed the number of teeth on the gears.

Reducing the RPM by using the rear end of the same design from the same company doesn't hurt the car's originality, and it's a bug step toward preserving the originaly engine by reducing the over-revving, and it helps the car keep up with modern traffic, which makes it safer.

A 3.54 differential from a '40s Chrysler should bolt right into your present rear axle housing, and will really help the car. If you want more specifics on how to do it, let me know.

jrobinson@mscomm.com

JON

[Guest imported_BaronvonR]

Hi Jon,

As you may remember I have a 51 DeSoto and a 50 Imperial, are you reccommending that the rear ends be changed in these as well, I have driven the Imperial around New England and find that it does well at 65. I am planning on driving the DeSoto out to Akron this August and want to be sure nothing will deter the trip. Thanks ...you are always such a great help for us MoParphiles:)

[Jon Robinson]

Baron:

Sorry I haven't gotten back to you before this about the rear axle ratios in your cars, but I had some kind of comptuer glitch that wasn't allowing me to reply in this forum. I had to clear my temporary internet files to fix the problem, and it's fine now.

The rear axle ratio subject is a big deal to me and very frustrating in a way. Back in the 1930s, Chrysler had low-geared rear ends because of the roads of the time, but they made up for it by making overdirve easy to get on all the cars and standard equipment on quite a few models. In the 1940s, in the effort to compete with GM's automatics, they undid this, which I guess thay had to do to sell cars. Thus, you have all these Fluid DRive cars running around with 3.90 rear ends for no reason other than Chrysler wanting to make the cars quick and convenient enough to compete with the Hydra-Matic. The engineers must have been pulling their hair out.

I'm a huge believer in keeping these old cars original, and I despise streetrodding, but one way to preserve the original engines is to reduce unecessary RPM with rear ends of the original design that fit the cars without alteration. Usually, a rear end of the same design from a different year will do with trick.

You can reduce the RPM on your Imperial only 5% with a 3.36 rear end, but it may be worth doing if you drive the car a lot because it's 5% of millions of revolutions with time. The huge axle size on your Imperial limits you to using a rear end from a 1940s eight-cylinder Chrysler. You may need to have a welder move the leaf spring brackets outward a little to set it into your Imperial, but it'll go in there with no alteration. You could also just pull the axles out and install the 1940s differential in your 1950 housing. When I reduced my DeSoto from 3.54 to a 3.36, I could defintely feel the difference.

Your DeSoto needs this change more desparately. I'm sure it has a 3.90 rear end which really winds up those long-stroke engines on today's highways. It really is hard on them. For this car, find a 1957 or '58 Dodge or Plymouth that originally came with one of the big engines. It's the same rear end and will not alter your car, but you can't just install the 1957 differential in your 1951 housing because of the stud pattern on the housing. Take your '51 rear end and the '57 rear end to a welder, and have home move your '51 leaf springs brackets to the '57 rear end at the proper measurement. Then, install your '51 U-joint yoke on the '57 rear end. You'll need to remove the nut that holds it on with a big impact wrench and torque in on with a big torque wrench to something like 200 foot-pounds. Your '51 brakes will bolt right on to the ends of the '57 axle housing becasue the '57 brakes were attached the same way. The leaf spring brackets, the U-joint yoke, and it sets into the car. There's nothing to it, and I'm sure the engineers would have done it this way if the marketing of the time had let them.

My 1950 DeSoto came with a 3.90 rear end, and I installed a 3.54 differential from a '48 Chrysler. I liked it, and I installed a 3.36 rear end from a '57 Dodge. I set the speedometer needle on 55 MPH, and the car is actually doing 65. I still marvel at the difference it made.

A friend of mine who is now deceased, collected '33 and '34 Dodges and Plymouths. Early-1960s Valiant and Dart rear ends fit perfectly in the early-1930s cars with only a change of the U-joint yoke. The leaf spring brackets are even the same. Al used to drive his stock Dodges and Plymouths on the Los Angeles freeways at 65 and 70 MPH.

When it comes to you trip to Ohio, I'm actually more worried about your DeSoto's valves. I remember you describing them as being completely silent, and that worries me because it probably means they're not closing all the way. They're supposed to make noise. Adjusting the valves is really easy, and if they're really quiet, I would urge you to do it.

Jack up the car, take off the passenger's side front wheel. The inner fender is made to be easily removed for valve adjustments. Once you have the fender out of the way, you can remove the valve covers. Set a cylinder to the beginning of its combustion stroke when both valves are closed, and adjust the space between the lifter and the end of the valve stem. The adjuster is a tight fitting screw in the top of the lifter, and you just grab th lifter with a 1/2" wrench and adjust the screw with a 7/16" wrench. The old specs said to adjust the valves to .008 on the intake and .010 on the exhaust with the engine hot, but this is really, really tight. The valves get hotter than they used to on today's gasoline, and they were only adjusted that tightly to keep them as quiet as possible on test drives. Again, marketing trumped engineering. With the engine cold, set all your valves to .015, and you can climb the grades between New England and Ohio fearlessly. The valves will click, but it's nothing that will bother you.

If you want more tips on any of this, let me know. Tell us how your trip to Ohio goes.

JON

[Guest imported_BaronvonR]

Jon,

WOW...thats alot of info.....the problem is that i do not have access to the parts you mentioned, nor do I have someone who can do the necessary moving of parts. So I'll just putter along at 55 and enjoy the cars as they stand. The DeSoto convention in Akron is only 500 or so miles away so I'm allowing about 10 hours for the trip. I think The DeSoto should be able to do that if I keep the speed to 55. I have gone through all of the mechanicals so I'm confident of that. The next project I'm tackling is replacing the windshield gasket so in case of rain it wont leak:)

Thanks for all of your help, it is GREAT!!!!

Baron

[Guest]

What kind of intake-exhaust manifold does the 230 engine-welder have on it? Looking for a downdraft with the exhaust exiting out the top front or dual out the sides. Thanks...

[Doug McKay]

Iam rebuilding a 1928 Chrysler "72" as a Le Mans type special in the spirit of the '72s' which came 3rd and 4th after the Bentley and Stutz in the 1928 race. My car has a very light body and a modified engine so needs a higher differential ratio than standard.I solved the problem by having a new crown wheel and pinion machined to give me a 3.5/1 final drive ratio.It cost a bit but was simple to achieve.Many American cars can have their road ability transformed with a higher rear end ratio.You are mad not to do it.Not only will you save your engine but you will have a much nicer long distance drive and really enjoy your car rather than either crawling along at low speed or getting impatient and wearing out your engine.

Doug McKay.

[edy]

I have the same engine from early 60's in a forklift I just got. I want to tuneup but don't have fireing order or any specs. Where can I get a service manual ?

Appreciate any help for Chrysler 6 cyl flathead industrial engine. Thanks

[55 dude]

what years did they produce the model 30? i have forklift and would like a manual for it. thanks

[Rusty_OToole]

I have seen manuals advertised online, I think someone is reprinting them. A search should turn something up.

A good source of parts is Vintage Power Wagons, they used the same engine and they have lots of spares.

[55 dude]

just hoping to nail down way to tell what year my engine is so i purchase the correct manual since i'm not familiar with these industrial engines. i made a few calls to folks that deal with these engines and would like more possible info before spending any cash. Vintage Power Wagons sounds like good source and i will check them out.

[Guest Bob Call]

55 Dude

The manuals for industrial and marine engines are specific to and identified by model number. I don't know about the 6 cylinders but on the V8's there is an ID plate riveted to the rear of the block that has the model number and engine serial number and other info. Check for that ID plate on your engine.

I have bought used manuals on ebay for V8 industrial and marine. The main thing I got from them was the differences between I/M and car and truck versions. Often the V8 car and I/M and truck had different oil pan sumps, and, intake and exhaust manifolds. In the V8's some truck versions are the same as the I/Ms, might apply to some of the 6 cylinders also. Chrysler used these flat head 6's thru 59 in cars and thru 68 in trucks. Also, another thing to consider is the original application for the engine. Some were used where they ran at a constant speed and might have a different cam profile than a car or truck engine. I believe you said your engine was from a welder. It probably has a governor that maintains a constant speed under load and then returns to idle when the welding arc is broken. One V8 industrial I bought had the governor built into the distributor so that distributor was not desirable for a car application.

Manual http://vintagemoparts.com/product.php?id_product=17

Flathead Info http://www.allpar.com/mopar/flat.html

Edited May 6, 2015 by Bob Call (see edit history)

[55 dude]

on the tag it says model is 30! link to manual would be great if it covered model 30. thanks.

[55 dude]

Vintage Power Wagons had manual for earlier engines and mostly for the vehicles but it was worth a try. i have seen manuals online just want one for my engine. my lift is ex navy and could have different vintage engine in it.

[Guest Bob Call]

Dude

Here is link to ebay listing for operator's manual for models 30, 31, 32 and 33.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHRYSLER-6-CYL-INDUSTRIAL-ENGINE-30-31-32-33-OP-MANUAL-/230491757721

Chrysler also published a Maintenance Manual that covers most of the 6 cylinder industrial.

https://books.google.com/books?id=W8wjuAAACAAJ&dq=inauthor:%22Chrysler+Corporation.+Industrial+Engine+Division%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hKZKVcboOIGzUfWGgJAP&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA

There will not be a manual for Model 30 only. It will cover all similar models.

I don't know what the difference is between the two types except to say that maintenance manuals I have for the V8's are like the shop manuals for cars.

[countrytravler]

Have one in our library.

[Rusty_OToole]

Valves are NOT supposed to make noise. Solid lifters should be dead silent for the life of the engine especially a flathead, if they are kept adjusted.

I had a slant six with 160,000 hard miles in a pickup truck and the valve gear was so quiet with the hood closed you could not hear the engine. It had done plenty of hard work but the owner never neglected valve adjustments and oil changes.

Flatheads are even quieter.

If someone tells me they are supposed to be noisy I always ask to see his engineering degree and ask why he thinks he knows better than the engineers who designed the car, tested it for hundreds of thousands of miles, and had millions of miles of customer feedback to go by?

Noisy valves that are not adjusted will eventually get so peened over and mushroomed that it becomes impossible to adjust them properly. This is why old engines are noisy and cannot be made silent, damage to the valve gear by neglect and improper adjustment.

[55 dude]

mine runs quiet and i'm hoping this electronic conversion will have my lift running properly because it sure is handy!

[Hudsy Wudsy]

I just want to offer one small thought regarding increased highway speeds from the differential change -- I had a neighbor who swapped a late '40s Chrysler product (I think '49 Dodge, but I can't be sure) complete rear end into his '36 Dodge sedan. The newer rear end assy  came with 10" brakes, rather than the stock '36 9" brakes. As a bonus, he was able to easily swap out the front brakes to 10", as well. The backing plate bolt pattern was identical. As I said, I don't know the specific source of the later rear end, but I just thought I'd offer that a swap might provide an opportunity to increase stopping power for a little extra safety at the higher speeds.