Howard Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 This is not a Packard question per se, but I thought someone out there in Packardland might have the information I seek. I know that Packard used the Bendix Treadle Vac power braking system during 1950's, up till the 1956 model. I know that a number of other makes, in addition to Packard, used the Treadle Vac units as well. My question, I'm assuming the units all worked the same way and had the same internal components. Is that the case? Were the units the same size(ie bolt patterns on firewalls ect) for all the cars they were used in? Were the units all the same external size? For instance, would a Treadle Vac for a Packard fit say, a Lincoln of the same vintage? Thanks for your insight. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Howard, from the Treadlvacs I have observed, they do not appear interchangeable at least among Packard, Lincoln (1956), and Edsel (1958) as far as mounting scheme and bolt pattern. As you know, the Packards bolt through the floorboard whereas the Lincoln and the Edsel bolt up high MUCH easier to get to and deal with. But, I have only seen "one kit" advertised for Treadlvacs that "appears" usable for all models, but I have not confirmed that. Physically the outside of the Ford product cars looks different than the Packard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 recently, at a local 'cruise in' i saw a 56 chevy with a TV unit that looked identicle to the Packard unit in everyway. BUT, it mounted High on the firewall not down at the toe board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 I believe 57 Chevy mounted the TV unit up high also - they look identical to Packard version.YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 I took apart my treadle vac today since I had the rebuild kit from kanters, just to sort of take a look and see what was inside and also since i have had to replace all the wheel cylinders due to leaking or stuck pistons. Once i opened it i was glad i did as i found about 3 oz of brake fluid in the vaccuum section which i know did not belong there. I did find some rust spots on the piston which all did polish out with som emery paper, and the used some crocas cloth to polish it back up. I just have to wait to install it on the weekend and have to get replacement front shoes for the Patrician and i should be back in business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 Albert, Someone recently posted that they had put an extra vacuum can in series with the vacuum hose to the carb base so that any brake fluid that was leaked into the TV cylinder would not be sucked into the intake. I'm trying to determine whether this is a good idea (works) or not.I had a machinist friend make a new piston as the original got eaten away right at the seal - small job no charge.YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardi Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 Albert - What order of magnitude was the cost if the treadlevac kit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 My vaccuum lines did not have any brake fluid in them yet, as i did not fill up the booster far enough yet, the kit was $49 from Kanters but that did not include the leather seal or a new pushrod boot, which kanters also sells as and extra (boot $8 and the leather seal $25) I know what you mean about the piston thought there is not mush to it, an i think if i had to replace it i would make it from a piece of stainless instead of the steel being crome plated which does become pitted. The vaccuum chamber i also had to run the cylinder hone through to clean up a few rust spots. I did see on e-bay a float assembly that went into the brake fluid to monitor the fluid level to a light on the dash, which might be a better idea to monitor the fluid level, and when it starts dissapearing to rebuild the master again. I was also thinking of making an adapter plate that would bolt to the bottom of the treadle vac so a regular master cylinder would bolt to it and we would end up with a split system, just a matter of finding a car that only has a 5/8 bore master cylinder to give the same pressure for stroke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Brian, I remember Power Brake Exchange in Pgh asking me that question and then he said it didn't really matter. The only reference I have found is for 1955 vehicles on page 10 and page 293 under group 1.327 Packing kit. For 1956 they only list one packing kit. The P2 or P3 is stamped on end of master cylinder on the outside. I'm not sure I can define the term "Packing Kit" to my own satisfaction, let alone others.YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Packards1 Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 Rather than machining a piston, you could contact Ed Strain in Florida. He has made them in stainless steel. I rebuilt my unit and put one in just because I could. I have his number if you need it. Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardi Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 Re Treadle Vac piston --I'd like to have the number, too. You can send it to me at bernardi11@comcast.net if you don't wish to publish it on the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 I would not mind finding out about another piston as well, min i had to polish down to the steel and now missing the chrome plating in spots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCraigH Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Caveat emptor (let the buyer beware) you guys on the Bendix Treadle-Vac.As I've stated before and I'll state again, the B.T-V is a [color:"red"]fatal accident waiting to happen. I don't care who overhauls it, the B.T-V is a flawed design. It was superceded by [color:"red"] EVERY major manufacturer with their own power brake setup by the end of the 1950s. There is a reason for this.Use one at your own (serious) risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Harlin Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 CRAIG I usually agree with you but not with this subject. Yes, all were superceded but so were a lot of other parts. We beat heck out of them dirt track racing. More abuse than any owner would consider doing, and never had a failure. We ran a 52 2dr in a 26 hour marathon on 1/2 mile dirt, on & off the brakes at least twice every lap. No problems. When Ed Strain did our TV I asked him if he got reports on this & he said no. He does around 1000 every year. I just dont think they need to be replaced if every thing is done right. I do respect you for what you are doing, OK Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCraigH Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Jack,I would agree that the BTV [color:"red"] usually works as advertised. Hey, one could probably go 100K miles and not have problem, except...I personally had 3 failures. I've talked to six other Packard owners who had similar failures.The problem is that a worst-case failure will happen without warning! One drives along, stepping on the brake as usual, when all of a sudden: pedal to the floor and [color:"red"] NO BRAKES! Hey, you pay your $$$ and you take your chances...with your life.I don't have a BTV on my 55 Pat or my Panther. I have three which I [color:"red"] refuse to sell to anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Craig, I'm interested in what you replaced the BTV with. I'm right at the point of having the brakes on my '56 worked on. Is there something I should do instead of bebuilding the original system. I've always found your suggestions well thought out and very practical. The only concessions I'm willing to make on my car are those made for safety reasons -- steel belted radials, electric window wipers, seat belts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 i'm using a nearly identicle Masters master cylinder and power unit that craig has. Mine came from a 1989 Honda Civic. It is small and compact and only requires minor changes to the toe board for mounting. Go to Craigs web site (link provided in most of his posts) to take a look at his set up. Craig has also done a disk brake conversion on his cars. My 56 Executive has all stock from the factory brakes EXCEPT for the MC and power unit as described above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 What might be also an idea is to put a fload switch on the master to a dummy light on the dash to let one know when you are getting low on fluid, i have also though of making up and adapter plate to fit the tredle vac so i can install another master cylinder to the treadlavac, I have found one master cylinder that has a slightly larger bore to give a similer amount of boost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCraigH Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 tfred:Here's the link to the conversion: BTV conversion Remember that the stock pedal lever ratio is 1:1. With drum brakes, which are self-energizing, this is probably adequate. PackardV8 can verify this about his setup. With disc brakes, the 1:1 is [color:"red"] NOT adequate. I had to fabricate a 4:1 pedal lever arrangement, which moved the pedal position down. It takes a little getting used to, but has proven to be fine in service.Brake Pedal repositioned, trial fit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Harlin Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 CRAIG I was pretty sure you wouldnt feel offended or wouldnt have writen it. Thanks.I dont blame you after 3 bad failures for not trying to avoid the 4th one & improve them, which you have done. That along with the adjustable links, & methods to R & R them with out using the special tool. BRIAN I did like you, replaced complete brake system. I would feel better with a duel master cyl. as you mentioned. If one is located that will work, I would like to kmow. Like been said theres no warning, & the emergency brake & shifting into reverse (Ultramatic) only choice left. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 someone wrote:" have also though of making up and adapter plate to fit the tredle vac so i can install another master cylinder to the treadlavac, I have found one master cylinder that has a slightly larger bore to give a similer amount of boost."BE FORWARNED! That the service manual defines the BTV as a " 1 inch" master cylinder. IT IS NOT. (or someone needs to explain it to me). The Bendix TV has a .655 (call it 5/8) inch plunger that displaces fluid. it is NOT like a normal master cylinder with a piston of full contact to the bore of the cylinder. The BTV master cylinder is in reality a 5/8 bore cylinder IN FUNTION. This is why Packard could get away with the 1:1 pedal ratio.The 89 Honda Civic unit i am using has a 13/16 PISTON. So it is as close as i could get for a retro. However, the pedal travel is lessened due to a lesser allowable stroke designed into the Honda unit. THIS MEANS that the brakes must be kept in constant correct adjustment.So, any retro fit power unit must have at MOST a 13/16 (or better yet a 5/8) inch bore and liberal stroke in order to replace the BTV unit precisely.My Honda civic units works just fine. BUT, i would like to improve to something better and very interested in disk conversion like Craigs but i am leaning more toward retro fitting some production disk units rather than a custom design. Just a different approach with same results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 I have found a few other master cylinders that are 11/16 dia, one fits and 85-85 Subaru i will take a look at, and a few others but mainly on the japanese cars as the cylinders are mostly Nabco and Tokico makes. I have an illustrated reference Guide of the Wagner Brake Products manual which gives the bore size as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCraigH Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(snip) BUT, i would like to improve to something better and very interested in disk conversion like Craigs but i am leaning more toward retro fitting some production disk units rather than a custom design. Just a different approach with same results. </div></div>For a different, but equivalent result, Paul in Las Vegas retrofitted a 1972 Ford 1/2-ton pickup front disc brake on PackardHe also fitted a 1972 Lincoln power steering & power brake (hydraulic) to his Exec. Neither of these conversions is for the casual hobbyist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardi Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 A local (Pittsburgh, PA) restoration shop sends the Packard spindle to some place in one of the Carolinas to be modified and fitted with a completely new disk setup, including braided stainless steel brake lines. The cost is somewhere in the $1,500 range. I haven't seen one, but it sounds good, tho a bit more costly than the ones described here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardi Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Continuation -I believe a new master cylinder and power unit are part of the installation, but I have no details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 ok. i'll check around for a Subaru unit. I've never been comletely happy with the Honda Civic unit but close enuf. Keep us posted on anymore units u reseach that are close to the 5/8 AND short enuf to fit the restricted space. That 11/16 bore should do the trick provided the power diaphragm is big enuf. I saw a real small unit on a Geo-Metro but the power unit looked very tiny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Craig. thanks for the tip on the 72 Ford 1/2 ton disk conversion. I'll study it further when i can get a 72 F unit. Did he have to do any precision machining to fit it or could be done with files and die grinders??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCraigH Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 PackardV8: email me and I'll provide Paul's phone #. He's the authority on that (Ford P/U) conversion, plus I'm sure he'd be pleased to discuss it with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karlel Posted April 3, 2004 Share Posted April 3, 2004 I'm thinking of installing a Honda Civic (1987 - 1991) booster + master cylinder in my 1953 Clipper. My treadle vac works fine but it's better to be sure. Reading the story of Craigh makes me worry. I've got several questions:1. Is it possible to install a remote brake fluid reservoir (like Craigh did)instead of the fixed reservoir on the master cylinder? So the fixed reservoir on the master cylinder must be removable and replaced by two adapters which can be connected to the remote reservoir2. Are there any changes necessary in the connectiion of the accelerator pedal to the Honda power brake unit?3. I'm thinking very simple: if questions 1 and 2 are no problem it's just a matter of:a. removing the treadle vacb. drilling new holes for the Honda boosterc. new brake lines to the wheel cylinders d. installing adapters in the brake lines(the new connectors won't fit the wheel cylinder threads)e. removing the fixed fluid reservoir of the master cylinderf. installing 2 new adaptors in the master cylinder (remote fluid reservoir - master cylinder) [color:"black"] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted April 4, 2004 Share Posted April 4, 2004 Take a look around the scrap yards , as there are quite a few cars that are now using remote tanks. You may have a problem with the mechanical advantage with hooking a civic booster to the stock location on the brake pedal as the Honda civic booster has a 13/16 bore and the tredal vac has a 5/8 bore which would give you less hydraulic pressure to the wheel cylinders for the same stroke of the pedal. as far as the master being metric threds that is not a problem , they sell adapters that allow sae fittings to be connected without a problem. the only other thing you may need to install on the master is a residual pressure valve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted April 5, 2004 Share Posted April 5, 2004 The Honda Civic power unit and mastercylinder work just fine on my 56 Executive and i drive the car at speeds above 50 mph most of the time. HOWEVER, u will find that t he Honda unit will give a somewhat harder brake pedal especialy under high speed stops at 40+ mph. We really need to find a master cylinder/power unit with something closer to the 5/8 that Packard originaly used. Someone in one of the threads (maybe this one) indicated such a unit i from a Geo Metro if i remeber right. A few answers:1. i tilted my civic unit so that the reservoir is pointing toward the fender antenna on an angle. BUT, i eliminated the fresh air tube that runs from the front of the car to the firewall because i have air conditioning. If the fresh air tube is not eliminated then u will probably have to go with the remote reservoir.2. connecting accelerator pedal to brake unit???? I have no idea what u are talking about but then again this might be a 54 question and i am not familiar with 54's.I did not replace ANY brake lines on my executive. I put an imperial fitting on the HONDA brake line at one end and connected to the existing PACKARD brake line with a union. NOTE that on the 56 the rear Packard line and the front are seperate lines with seperat fittings so i just adapted to them and to each port on the HONDA MC.I used no proportioning valve or anything else. Just run the front Packard line to the front port of the MC and the rear to the rear.Keep us posted on your progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karlel Posted April 6, 2004 Share Posted April 6, 2004 I will sure keep you posted, but at the moment I first want as information as possible before I start the job. It is still nasty and cold weather here (Netherlands)so it'll take about 2 months before I can start the job.Thanks so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBL Posted April 6, 2004 Share Posted April 6, 2004 If you do a search...you may find how I had done my coversion. I was able to use a booster from a 1985 ford LTD. It has one offset stud but this can easilly be modified. The master cyl used is from a 87 ford econoline. They bolt right up. If you pull off the resevior you can make your own remote fill setup. CHEAP to do.TimMBL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBL Posted April 6, 2004 Share Posted April 6, 2004 Here is what I had done as posted in an earlier thread:Ok... Now we're getting somewhere. I went back to that junkyard. I found that there are some 70's Ford trucks that came stock with a remote fill setup. I believe it was a Ford Courier. Whatever that is. So here's the deal. Ford to some extent had standardized the mounting of the master/booster. So I was able to mate a master from an 87 Ford econoline and a booster from an 85 Ford LTD. This booster is the same one placed on mustangs of similar era and newer. This booster has a very similar bolt pattern to the streetrod booster but one of the studs is offset. This is not enough to cause a problem. Now because the length of the master compromises clearance on the left side of the master (there is a framerail in the way) The brake line fittings need to go in on the right side. Hence the need to use the 87 Econoline master. I installed the booster and master after adding some reducer fittings to each port of the master. The Econoline master has a larger size line going into it. Couplings and additional line were used to attach the stock brakeline to the master and it is done. Now, the 87 econoline master has two rubber gromets that sit on the inside of the fill cup. These gromets are the perfect size to allow the elbow fill fittings and thier rubber gromets to fit inside. Make sure that when you take the elbow fittings out of the ford Courier you also take the rubber gromet that goes with them. This means... You take the nylon fill elbow,(brass is used on the streetrod aplication) then take the rubber gromet that holds it in place from the stock applicaton. (they will probably have to come out separately) Fit the Ford Courier elbow into its rubber gromet and then push it into the econoline master which has its own gromet. One will fit into the other and the grooves in each will hold it in place. Also while you are there take the remote fill reseviour; it will be on top of the firewall. This is a comversion that is very cheap to do and the donar vehicals will almost always be present at the junkyard. I will see if I can get pictures for everyone who would like them but it might take a while. If you need any more of the specifics e-mail me or post on the thread. Tim MBL P.S. Some changes here. I hope it makes more sence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Yes! i would like to see pics. What is the diameter of the MC u used??? Does this set up seem as powerful as the original treadle vac?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Harlin Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 HI: How much have you driven your car since making this conversion? I think Craig mentioned long ago about more than normal pressure required to stop? Wondering if similar to none powered brakes? Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBL Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 I haven't....still waiting to get the tranny in. The work so far shows a decent movement of the shoes when applied. I will keep all posted when I get it on the road finally. The booster has a bit more volume than the one used with the street rod booster. I could only estimate that it would require a bit more pressure than the original but possibly less pedal travel...based on the difference in the leverage point on each booster's original application. If that makes any sense.TimMBL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karlel Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Packard v 8, I just took off a power break unit from a Honda Civic, in very good condition. Like you said, I don't need to replace the brake lines, just some adapting. Thanks for the tip.I'll have to place two adapters in the two brake linings coming out of the Honda master cylinder. The thread in the Honda master cylinder is no problem but I don't know the tread and size of the lining connector that goes into the Treadle vac. UNF or UNC, what size? When I know that, I can start looking for the right adapters.Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 It is some special thread used in tubing applications BUT the fitting (i think it is called a male junction fitting) is readily available at any GOOD parts store. Worse case situation u will have to buy one of those short ready made brake lines (for American car) and cut the line to rob the fitting and use it on your Honda tubing. I got a union fitting at Car-Quest a local parts store that carries fittings. Note that i discovered that the honda tubing is the same diameter as the Packard tubing despite the thread difference of the fittings. I'm not familiar with your experience level but NOTE that brake line tubing MUST be flared as a DOUBLE INVERTED FLARE and NOT a single flare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 Just out of curiosity, what is the number (a fractional number) on the side of the Master Cylinder u have???? What year Civic?? And the info from the tag on the power cannister. I'd like to compare that info to mine just for kicks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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