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tblack

1917 buick d45

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On ‎9‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 10:24 AM, Brian_Heil said:

Talking fan belts.

 

Years ago, my 1923 came with a brand new leather belt.   Looked great.  Fun to watch that metal staple seam go round and round. 

 

First all day tour in the rain and the belt stretched and slipped and got 'thrown' and bent my fan.  Next stop was the NAPA store and a wide, flat, modern, 'rubber' serpentine belt.  Not very long, and the part number has worn off long ago, but I pointed to the one I wanted hanging on the wall and we matched it to the leather one by eye and it has been running without incident for 20+ years.

 

Made me wonder how they made the old leather belts work back in the day.  Maybe today's cows are not as waterproof?  :P

 

I also have a NAPA serpentine belt on my truck.  The only way to go IMO and others that drive their cars & trucks.

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My 2nd fan belt is here on monday and the gas tank maybe late next week....then ready to fire it over and maybe  take a ride......I found a pair of matching 1918 NY plates for your car I give them to you then. I put up the top..it needs some repair and the side curtains are in pretty good shape.  Last evidence that the car ran was a 1976 car show tag.

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You are welcome to the ohio plate but it looks as though it is a 1916.  There was some confusion when this car was first registered and it was registered as a 1916....the numbers though clearly place it in 1917.  Another delay today as I found  the upper radiator hose connection is pretty rotted away so it is off to the shop to join the gas tank for some rehab!!!  These things take time.

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Right now it has a 1926 Illinois plate on it. I broke the spare tire holder trying to straighten it, so I used the spare tire holder from the other car, and it had that plate on it. It's been on that spare tire holder since 1926, the year they abandoned that car in a wheat field in Illinois. Did you get that push rod to fit?

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I was wondering if the back windshield was period correct. Apparently it is

"JH" Tonneau Shield Co Inc

518-522 W 5th St New York NY

pat Feb 28, 1912 June 1, 1920

 

Hoping to start the car soon as all the parts and pieces are back in placecontent.thumb.jpg.6f317258004a712f32e92278ea8c4da7.jpg

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Well I got it started today but it will take some work for it to run decently. I was looking for a project and I guess I got one.

 

I had unstuck 2 valves and 1 of them restuck. Need to look at all the valves but the cages are really stuck they have been soaking in PB Blaster for at least 3 weeks no go. I'm going to pull the upper block and then drive them out.  Pending on what I see I may look to find proper valves and springs, maybe new rocker stands and see if the push rods are original.   The valves presently are modern valves with wedge split keepers.  The rocker stands are shimmed with 3 washers on each stud and 2 of the 6 rocker stands have repair welds.

 

I'd like to return to original...on the 225 engine for 16 and 17 all the cages are the same size. In 18 they went to 2 size cages with the 246 engine.  Were the smaller of these cages the same size as the 16 and 17.  If so are they interchangeable. Do the smaller cages on 18 to 23 the same and would they work?

 

Cage valves are great concept but when they are stuck after 50+ years of sitting it is a challenge.

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On 10/9/2018 at 7:15 PM, tblack said:

 

I'd like to return to original...on the 225 engine for 16 and 17 all the cages are the same size. In 18 they went to 2 size cages with the 246 engine.  Were the smaller of these cages the same size as the 16 and 17.  If so are they interchangeable. Do the smaller cages on 18 to 23 the same and would they work?

 

Cage valves are great concept but when they are stuck after 50+ years of sitting it is a challenge.

 

 

On my 242 engine from '18 the intake cages are 2.065 inches and the exhaust are 1.685, don't know if that helps if they aren't coming out. My buffum tool is broken, all I can say is, I got my cages out by soaking them in 50/50 mix of acetone and brake fluid.

Edited by Morgan Wright (see edit history)

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10 hours ago, Morgan Wright said:

 

 

On my 242 engine from '18 the intake cages are 2.06 inches and the exhaust are 1.70, don't know if that helps if they aren't coming out. My buffum tool is broken, all I can say is, I got my cages out by soaking them in 50/50 mix of acetone and brake fluid.

10 hours ago, Morgan Wright said:

 

 

On my 242 engine from '18 the intake cages are 2.06 inches and the exhaust are 1.70, don't know if that helps if they aren't coming out. My buffum tool is broken, all I can say is, I got my cages out by soaking them in 50/50 mix of acetone and brake fluid.

Morgan thanks for the info ...I also spoke to Terry Weigand last night.

 

on the 16 and 17 all cages were the same smaller size for both intake and exhaust...Starting with 18 through the end of the cage valve era in 23 they are as you say small exhaust (same as 16 and 17) and larger intake. Per Terry If I can aquire exhaust valves and cages from 18 to 23 then I could use them as either intakes or exhausts in the 16 or 17. This narrows it down a bit.

 

I am pulling the upper cylinder block and will drive the valves and cages out.  Found this works without damaging the old parts.  Also I get a chance to inspect the pistons, rings and get an initial" feel" on the connecting rods and wrist pins with the cylinder block off and the pistons dangling.

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I got the upper cylinder block off, Drove out the pistons and cages without further damage. Pistons stand tall and bearings seem tight so I'm not looking for trouble on that end.  I re-aquired a 23 engine and will compare the cages and valve set up.  If I stay with the valves as boogered together in the 50's then I need 2 new ones or I could take 2 valves out of the 23 and group them in one cylinder and adjust the rocker tower for that new set up.  #5 cylinder has a groove worn in the cylinder from some drifting wrist pin some where in its past. That problem seems to have been corrected and the oil it might burn was dealt with by using a dual electrode plug in that cylinder. In an ideal world this engine might get rebuilt but it will work for my purposes.

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I used my more accurate caliper and found that the exhaust valve cages for the 242 engine are 1.685 inches diameter. I also have a couple extra bronze rings as Terry sent me 8 and I only needed 6.

 

Let me know if you can use the cages. They are in the spare engine which you saw, it's also a 242 engine from 1918. Obviously you can't use the intake cages. The springs, according to Gary, are too rusty to use. It seems a previous owner cleaned off the black oxide and spray painted the springs red. An idiotic move. Black oxide prevents rust, red paint flakes off and rust happens. You can use your old springs I think.

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I laid everything out and measured.

 

The 1923 exhaust valve cages are not interchangeable with  1917.  They are of proper diameter top 1.68 Inches but their length is from upper bevel to to lower valve seat is 1/4" longer than the 1917 cages.  The locking nut would not screw down far enough to hold the the cage in properly.   This in itself could be overcome with some machining but the valve stem diameter is considerably larger and the spring pressure is probably too great for the 17  rocker towers and pushrods to handle.

 

Using the bathroom scale it takes 60 lbs to open the the 23 valve and 30lbs to open the 17 valves.

 

With that being said I have 2 cages that the valve guides are broken. Both of these each have bent valves and one has a mangled spring. Seems as though my earlier suspicion that the valves they used years ago were exhaust valves from a chevy 283 engine might be correct.

 

Anyone have two 16 or 17 valve cages??  If so I think I can make them work continuing with the 283 set up.

 

Stems on the 283 valves are .341  not sure what the original valves were . The stems on the 23 valves are .375

 

Also does anyone know what the spring pressures were for 16 and 17?

 

Any thoughts on whether the old cages with broken guides could be refitted with 283 valve guides??

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

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I had a look at my spare '18 cages.

 

If you were to bore out the original cast in guides and press in new giudes, I'd be pretty nervous. There would be almost nothing left to support the new guides.

You might be OK if you were to open up the original guides bores, leaving some support metal, and machine the OD of new guides to fit.  However since your original guides are cracked, this might not work.

 

I admit to having no experience with modifying the Buick cages.

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Don thanks for the input.....From what I can gather from various sources. The 18 exhaust cages would have used a a valve stem approximately .375  while the 16 and 17 would have been closer to .31

Trouble is mine have been opened up to fit 283 chevy valves stems .3415 no bushing . Using a 283 valve in an 18 cage would be bushing with bronze sleeves down to the 283 stem size.

 

Ive got 6 1923 valve cages, springs valves etal and with minor machineing I can make these work.

 

I will probably go that route and use the best six of the 16 valves. I'll continue looking for complete 18 to 23 cages valves etal and reinstall those in time.

 

thanks

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Master Parts List:

 

Exhaust and Intake valve 21750 ----------------> fits 10, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 24, 25, B-24, B-25, C-24, C-25,  D 6 Cyl. except 54, 55

Exhaust and Intake valve 23079------------------> fits D and E 4-Cyl.

Exhaust valve 32353------------------------------------>fits B-36, B-37, B-38, B-55, C-36, C-37, C-54, C-55, C-4 truck, D-54, D-55, D-4 truck,

Exhaust valve 47240 ----------------------------------> fits E, H, K, 1921, 1922, 1923  6-Cyl.

 

 

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Interesting research on the valves.  Any master book info on springs?

 

Does anyone have a valve  handy to measure.   Face diameter, Stem diameter, length and size and location of the keeper hole?

 

Also does anyone have an original spring to measure  Free length, Wire size wire material ,number of coils and spring diameter.

 

Given the spring info I can use an online  spring calculator to back figure the lbs rating.  Has anyone purchased replacement springs ?  From who?

 

The valves I have are 283 chevy I think...length 4.825 "  stem  .3375"  face diameter 1.48" modern keeper fits almost flush with the end.  

The springs I have are free length  2.125 " wire diameter .15" Spring diameter 1.125"

Pressing the cage to open position it takes about 30 lbs.....the 1923 valve cage took about 60 psi

 

Original spring I'm guessing would have been  longer  Maybe closer to 3" length, diameter  could be be as much as 1.3" and still fit inside the lock nut and the wire size was probably a little heavier.

 

So if anyone has anything definitive to measure it would be greatly appreciated.

 

Short term I'm cleaning up the upper block that I removed  and I'm pulling the pan to verify that the connecting rod bearing fits are tolerable.

 

Turning out to be a project!!!

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Master parts List

 

Valve spring 23100-------------->D-E  4 cyl

Valve spring 30498-------------->B-36, 37, 38, 55, C-36, 37, 54, 55, 4, D-54, 55, 4

Valve spring 33845-------------->F, 2A, 10, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 26, 27, 28, 29, 4, 30, 31, 38 , 39, 40, 24, 25, 3, 4, B-24, 25, 36, 37, 38, 55, C24, 25, D 6 cyl except 54, 55

Valve spring 36270-------------->E 6 cyl

Valve spring 153686------------>All H, K, 1921, 1922, 1923 6-Cyl. 1922, 1923, 1924 4-Cyl.

 

So your spring goes all the way back to model F

 

Edited by Morgan Wright (see edit history)

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I notice that E 6 Cyl has unique springs, that were replaced by a spring for H, K up to 1923, even though the valves and cages were not changed. Why did they change the spring but not the valves and cages? Maybe they improved the spring for the H series and I can use them for the 3 springs in my car that are not original.

 

Let me look and see if they changed the push rods or rocker arms between E and H, or more importantly, the cam shaft. A faster cam would require a stronger spring especially with roller lifters.

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Wow. They changed the camshaft much more often. Here are the different camshafts for 6 cyl:

 

B-54, B-55, C-54, C-55, D-54, D-55

E 6 Cyl.

H, K 6 Cyl.

D 6 Cyl. except 54, 55

1921-1922 6 Cyl.

1923 6 Cyl.

1924 6 Cyl., 1925-1926 Master, 1927 Ser 120-128

1925-1926 Standard, 1927 Ser 115

 

So basically my springs are unique and I can only use that one

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Push rods are even more often changed. This lists only 6 cyl around this time:

 

Type Y:

11  1/4----------D 6 Cyl. except 54, 55

12  27/32------C 54, 55, D 54 55

10  11/16------E 6 Cyl.

 

Type X

12  21/32------H-K-1921 6 Cyl.

12  29/32------1922 6 Cyl.

14  19/32------1923 6 Cyl.

 

So the push rod I gave you is too short for your engine.

 

 

 

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