So Tesla is tanking... your thoughts?

[charlier]

If I read the following article correctly, the $35,000 base model Tesla Model 3 will not be available for 6 months (ie 1st Quarter 2019).

The current Model 3 starting price is $49,000. IMHO, at that starting price, the Model 3 is not available to the more average incomes.

Even less so with the reduced tax credit effective January 1, 2019. 

 

Lest some people here forget, Tesla started taking reservations (and money)  for the Model 3 starting in March of 2016. In 6 months that will be almost  THREE YEARS that people who signed up for the "affordable" Tesla will have been waiting. No wonder why some of those people have run out of patience while they watched Tesla make and sell the more expensive Model 3s all the while Tesla holding onto their hard earned deposit money. 

 

Tesla's $35,000 Model 3 is still coming and with a new battery module design

 

 

Charlie

[mercer09]

John,

regarding Delorean and the cocaine. I believe the gov backed him into a corner and desperate people do desperate things. Not saying what he did was right, but I dont agree with entrapment.

 

Under the right amount of pressure, I believe everyone is capable of murdering someone. Humans only have the ability to endure so much..........

 

WACO also comes to mind, but completely off topic.

[TerryB]

Tesla started delivery, slowly, of Model 3 in July of 2017.  When they took deposits for the car at a refundable $1000 each down payment they had over 400,000 people place deposits.  I can’t think of any modern car that even comes close to that number.  Of the 400,000 it’s inevitable that people who placed a deposit will over time change their mind.  There is no provision to factor into that number the people who have now joined the ranks to be put on the list.  Even at $49,000 this is still a more entry level than a model S and in line with many EV prices from the competition.  The link you provided does indicate the $35,000 model is coming as the battery prices drop due to improvements in their manufacturing process.

 

As countrytraveler indicates, cars are indeed being shipped to delivery points.  Elon Musk personally was at one of those delivery places to prep the cars and welcome the new owners.  With all his recent antics in the news that can be eithergood or bad for business.  Regardless of all the naysayers, cars are out there and they are being purchased. 

[Ronnie]

This is a long thread and about everything has already been said but I thought I would add my 2 cents.  I hope I don't offend anyone. Just expressing my opinion about electric cars that are being sold today.

 

I have never understood why anyone would want an electric car in their current form. Tesla or otherwise. They are not an economical car. They are too expensive to buy due to their complex technology,  they are very expensive to maintain if you count the cost of battery replacement, and if you think you are saving the environment by driving one you are fooling yourself. There should be a sign at all of those squeaky clean charging stations, even the free ones, that show a photo of what is powering that charging station.

 

This power plant was the site of one of the largest environmental disasters in the history of the U.S.  It cost about 1 Billion dollars to clean it up.  We are collectively funding these plants even if the charging stations are free. If you want to see more of these plants, buy more electric cars.  

 

[maok]

3 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

This is a long thread and about everything has already been said but I thought I would add my 2 cents.  I hope I don't offend anyone. Just expressing my opinion about electric cars that are being sold today.

 

I have never understood why anyone would want an electric car in their current form. Tesla or otherwise. They are not an economical car. They are too expensive to buy due to their complex technology,  they are very expensive to maintain if you count the cost of battery replacement, and if you think you are saving the environment by driving one you are fooling yourself. There should be a sign at all of those squeaky clean charging stations, even the free ones, that show a photo of what is powering that charging station.

 

This power plant was the site of one of the largest environmental disasters in the history of the U.S.  It cost about 1 Billion dollars to clean it up.  We are collectively funding these plants even if the charging stations are free. If you want to see more of these plants, buy more electric cars.  

 

 

@Ronnie even it you charge an EV from the most dirties coal powered electricity, it is still more efficient and less polluting than a petrol power vehicle.

 

Why? A petrol powered vehicle only converts 25-30% of the fuel to movement, where as an electric motor is about 90% but probably down to 50-60% with losses in transmission of the power to the charging point,  losses in charging the batteries  and in delivering the power from the batteries to the electric motor/s.

 

But the future will bring more and more renewable energy production to the grid.

[Uncle_Buck]

Charging stations:  The wife and I go to the same sea-side resort every year, owned by a high-end hotel chain.  It caters to folks well above the median national income and it is wonderful, but pricey.  3 or 4 years ago, they installed Tesla charging stations in the parking garage in desirable, close-in spots.  In the last 2 years, we have seen a Tesla or two in that garage area, but in the charging stations there would be most anything - accept cars that needed a cord, particularly as the evening wore on when parking spots become scarce.  Tesla’s were effectively blocked from access to allow their vehicles to be charged.

 

I’ll cut to the chase here; how long will it be until the owners of a gas fueled vehicle and a Tesla engage in some sort of headline-making, police involved altercation over that parking spot(s) carved out of a parking garage that have now been reserved as Tesla ‘charging stations’ ?

[John348]

9 hours ago, capngrog said:

 

According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, the load on the U.S. grid has been essentially flat since about 2006.  Assuming that the U.S. population has increased significantly during this period, this means a drop in per capita electric energy consumption.  Electrically-powered vehicles will shift the demand from liquid fuels to electricity, meaning an increase on the load/demand on the U.S. electrical grid.  At least that's the way I understand the below graph:

 

https://www.eia.gov/electricity/data/browser/#/topic/0?agg=2,0,1&fuel=vvg&geo=g&sec=g&linechart=ELEC.GEN.ALL-US-99.M~ELEC.GEN.COW-US-99.M~ELEC.GEN.NG-US-99.M~ELEC.GEN.NUC-US-99.M~ELEC.GEN.HYC-US-99.M&columnchart=ELEC.GEN.ALL-US-99.M~ELEC.GEN.COW-US-99.M~ELEC.GEN.NG-US-99.M~ELEC.GEN.NUC-US-99.M~ELEC.GEN.HYC-US-99.M&map=ELEC.GEN.ALL-US-99.M&freq=M&start=200101&end=201806&chartindexed=0&ctype=linechart&ltype=pin&rtype=s&pin=&rse=0&maptype=0

 

Cheers,

Grog

 

Hey Grog,

I am shocked by that graph. I had seen the LED lighting had such a large impact on the demand of these high rise commercial buildings I was under the assumption that these changes were going on all  across the country. Very interesting thanks for bringing it up and sharing it. 

 

 

4 hours ago, mercer09 said:

John,

regarding Delorean and the cocaine. I believe the gov backed him into a corner and desperate people do desperate things. Not saying what he did was right, but I dont agree with entrapment.

 

Under the right amount of pressure, I believe everyone is capable of murdering someone. Humans only have the ability to endure so much.........

 

Hey Mercer,

I agree he was set up, but I thought  Delorean was a much smarter man than that. To get involved with drugs with that kind of money common sense should say those guys are very capable of murdering, and if something goes down it is going to be a big prison sentence.  The famous scene in the Godfather, even though it is fiction (based on some truths) Don Corleone wanted nothing to do with drugs for the problems it brings with it. I heard something about Elon Musk was smoking a joint on some webcast, that is a far cry from conspiracy to distribute narcotics.  What Musk is doing to devalue his stock is wrong  and I don't agree with it all all.   

 

13 hours ago, countrytravler said:

They are working on one for the Indy.  Big Daddy has a rail that does over 200 in a 1/4/ The car I rode in car blow the doors off a HellCat straight and cornering. 

 

Hey Traveler,

I have a house near Garlits place in Ocala FL This past winter I took a friend of mine who was visiting to visit the museum. That day Don Garlits was doing a tour and said that the NHRA banned his electric car because they were afraid that they would loose automotive sponsors. Thinking about it I can see that becoming a problem.

 

I personally have no desire to ever own a Tesla or any other electric car for that matter, it jut does not fit my lifestyle and it is just too much of a change, If we look at a few generations younger then us they have to have a charged cell phone and always will. They are already used to plugging in things, so plugging in a car will be just another part of their life.

This has been a very POLARIZING subject (pun intended)  let's just try to leave the politics out of it. Just think of all the technology that came from these cars. 

Edited September 21, 2018 by John348 (see edit history)

[countrytravler]

Trains run on electric power. They have its own charging station. Diesel runs the generators, in turn, produces the electricity for the electric motors on the axle. 

 

 

 

 

[countrytravler]

 

[countrytravler]

https://electrek.co/2017/11/17/tesla-semi-walmart-order-new-electric-trucks/

[capngrog]

8 hours ago, John348 said:

 

Hey Grog,

I am shocked by that graph. I had seen the LED lighting had such a large impact on the demand of these high rise commercial buildings I was under the assumption that these changes were going on all  across the country. Very interesting thanks for bringing it up and sharing it. 

 

 

Hey John,

 

I think that LED lighting and other more efficient electrical devices/appliances have actually had a large impact on overall electrical demand, hence the flat demand line in the face of rising population and proliferation of electrical gadgets.

 

As to high rise buildings with constant occupancy (both class and numbers), I'll bet there have been significant savings with the new electrical devices.  Overall, we in this Country are much more efficient in out energy use, what with the mandated efficiencies of electrical devices/appliances and improved building insulation etc.

 

The point I was trying to make is that there will probably be a significant increase in demand on the overall electrical grid as electric-powered vehicles become more common.  Of course, technology might improve to such an extent that vehicle roof-top solar chargers will be able to supply a significant portion of the power required by the vehicle. 

 

Cheers,

Grog

 

 

[8E45E]

23 hours ago, capngrog said:

As to high rise buildings with constant occupancy (both class and numbers), I'll bet there have been significant savings with the new electrical devices.  Overall, we in this Country are much more efficient in out energy use, what with the mandated efficiencies of electrical devices/appliances and improved building insulation etc.

 

 

The other side of the coin, is most electronic devices are powered up 24/7, therefore, still consuming some electricity.  Even though they have an 'off' switch, power is still retained within them for the memory, and alarms, etc.  Back in the old days, only refrigerators and electric clocks ran 24/7.  TV's, radios, appliances, and office equipment in the workplace were truly 'off' when they were not in use.

 

Craig

Edited September 22, 2018 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[Frank DuVal]

And most every electronic device that runs on low voltage internally and plugs into the wall has a little transformer internally or externally (wall warts I call them) that is never disconnected from the AC line (Mains). Feel them, they are warm, so that is wasted electric power (unless it is heating season ?).

 

This is way I never want to install those cute duplex receptacles with the built in USB jacks. Always consuming some power.  I do unplug my wall wart after charging my phone, tablet, whatever.

[8E45E]

12 hours ago, countrytravler said:

Trains run on electric power. They have its own charging station. Diesel runs the generators, in turn, produces the electricity for the electric motors on the axle. 

 

 

 

 

"Daddy, what does THIS button do?"

 

Craig

[keninman]

Just a couple of shots, first, why would anyone want an electric vehicle? This would have been a great question to ask about petrol vehicles at the very early part of the twentieth century. Second, about the electricity grid, well technology is changing very quickly. Indiana has dropped to 8th for coal production. As the grid continues to diversify there will be more opportunities for smaller production facilities, even home production because of better distribution control and affordable equipment. We are at  a cusp like the one that occurred in the late nineteenth century and early twentieth. It is indeed a great time to be alive. 

 

As for Tesla, its namesake, a not so poor immigrant who with the help of Westinghouse took on Edison, harnessed the power of Niagara Falls, lit the 1893 World's Fair in Chicago (even though Edison refused to sell them any bulbs) and won the, "Battle of the Currents" which is why we now have an electric grid based upon AC which can be transmitted over long distances instead of the localized DC power stations Edison championed. History is repeating itself only a bit different. While I cannot afford a Tesla automobile I damn sure support what they are doing. 

[Bhigdog]

I notice generic electic vehicle commercials running in prime time. The fine print mentions VW. Till now tesla was little more than a pimple on the butt of the major makers. If the majors put on a full court press in electrics i,m guessing tesla will end up being a niche player or road kill........bob

[brasscarguy]

Mercedes just announced the availability of their Tesla Killer. You get a real Mercedes 100% electric beginning at $54k. You get the backing of a real world wide automotive company with over 100 years of service. Unlike Tesla who is running out of money and is on a path to being broke in 6 months. Mercedes will be around long after Tesla is a distant bad memory.. Remember how many millions Obama poured into Fisker and how long did they last. The poor duped customers that bought Fiskers are now holding a bag of no value, the same will be true with Tesla after they go belly up.

 

Jaguar has just offered a full electric in the same price range as the Mercedes, yet another Tesla killer. Just try and get you deposit refunded for non produced and unavailable Tesla cars, fat chance!!!

 

Want a quality electric with decent resale value, buy it from a reliable well financed manufacture, Mercedes, Jaguar and Ford has one almost ready for market. Don't waste you money on a company like Tesla with non existent future financing.

 

just sayin'

 

brasscarguy

[John348]

15 minutes ago, brasscarguy said:

You get the backing of a real world wide automotive company with over 100 years of service. Unlike Tesla who is running out of money and is on a path to being broke in 6 months........................

Mercedes will be around long after Tesla is a distant bad memory..................................................................................................the same will be true with Tesla after they go belly up.

 

Jaguar has just offered a full electric in the same price range as the Mercedes, yet another Tesla killer. Just try and get you deposit refunded for non produced and unavailable Tesla cars, fat chance!!!

 

Want a quality electric with decent resale value, buy it from a reliable well financed manufacture, Mercedes, Jaguar and Ford has one almost ready for market. Don't waste you money on a company like Tesla with non existent future financing.

 

just sayin'

 

brasscarguy

 

 

Hey  Brasscarguy,

By any chance do you loan out your crystal ball? seems like you are pretty certain about the future, I just need it for a few games this Weekend, I will give you 10% if it is certain as you make it seem , even predicting the resale market! pretty darn good I just want it for three games, and I will never have to ask you again,

 

maybe some people refuse to buy foreign cars.... just sayin

[maok]

@brasscarguy How many electric cars has MB and Jaguar have built? Where will they get the batteries?

 

 

If Tesla did not make electric cars, the others would be stalling for decades more.

[brasscarguy]

Having been in the automotive business for nearly 50 years I have a bit of an insite, you know the old adage if its to good to be true it prolly is.. However the most telling signs are as follows.

 

Tesla has no dealers they are all company stores, therefore all personnel are company employees.  As advertised on line their techs are abandoning the sinking ship . Hardly a day goes by that we don't get an on line listing for Tesla techs looking for work. That is a very basic premise of financial troubles. Next the Federal government is now involved in a congressional investigation regarding stock manipulation. In fact check it out there are 2 investigations regarding financial practices  on going. So adding all those things together plus the constant delays in production plus the fact that the "trades" are chattering about vendors being forced to negotiate lower prices or not get paid for the monies already owed, just adds yet another nail in the coffin. Not an investment I would be making in this climate. Oh just another thought the stock has dropped damn near thru the floor from its overinflated highs a while back.

 

just an old mans opinion,

 

brasscarguy

[John348]

12 minutes ago, brasscarguy said:

just an old mans opinion,

 

brasscarguy

 

 

So you don't have a crystal ball! Darn you were pretty convincing about the future, I had my hopes up, only to find out it was just an opinion...I'm let down.

 

Also you might want to check that info I believe stock manipulation is an SEC investigation, (at least the were)  which is not Congressional 

 

Edited September 22, 2018 by John348 (see edit history)

[TerryB]

While all the other brands talk about bringing cars to market the only brand shipping thousands of cars to customers right now is Tesla.  A hard fact to overlook.  As for the technicians, there are no oil changes to do, no engine teardowns,  no check engine lights to deal with just simple repairs or software updates to install.  A whole different world compared to gasoline autos.

 

Tesla owners are like Apple products users, there might be other choices out there but they stay with the company they like.

[TerryB]

And, where are the MB supercharged stations located?  Is MB investing in places to charge their cars?  That’s where new to market EV makers have a lot of work to do.

[TerryB]

Tesla and Panasonic jointly manufacture batteries at the factory in Nevada.  Over 3000 people are employed at it.  

[CarNucopia]

4 minutes ago, TerryB said:

Tesla and Panasonic jointly manufacture batteries at the factory in Nevada.  Over 3000 people are employed at it.  

 

We're splitting hairs, but Panasonic makes the batteries, Tesla assembles them into a pack. The idea that the factory in Nevada is somehow a competitive advantage for Tesla is misplaced. Panasonic will sell batteries to, partner with, pretty much any car company that wants to do business with them.

[charlier]

Looks like 14 executives have left Tesla so far in 2018. Seems to be a fairly high number to me. One has to wonder what their reasons were for leaving???

 

Another Tesla executive has reportedly left the company

 

11 hours ago, John348 said:

Also you might want to check that info I believe stock manipulation is an SEC investigation, (at least the were)  which is not Congressional 

 

 

True, the SEC has opened an investigation into Tesla. Also true that  congress has not opened any reported investigations as of now.

 

However, the US Justice Department has indeed opened their own criminal fraud investigation into Tesla.

Then there are the shareholder lawsuits facing Tesla due to Elon's tweets and the impact on the stock's price.

 

A DOJ Probe into Elon's Tweets Could Spell Yet More Trouble for Tesla.

 

Also read the other day that Tesla is said to have over 11 BILLION dollars in debt, some debt payments coming due in the near future and NEGATIVE cash flow still continues along with decreasing cash available to fund on-going operations. If that is indeed true, Tesla's financials are not all that stable to say the least.

 

Charlie

 

 

[Buffalowed Bill]

I'm a car guy, have been all my life. A good car is a good car, no mater where the hell it comes from. Arguing about where the car is made, or by whom, is just plain stupid.There are always people ready to politicize anything, but it simply does a disservice to what we should be discussing, the car itself. The historians will have plenty of time to parce out details. It's obvious that this car stirs car people to a level of passion that few cars today can approach. The fact that this car is special is obvious by the fact that in a very short time this thread has garnered ten pages of responses. There are few fence sitters, when it comes to this car, someone either likes it or they don't. I'm sure that there are people here that still don't like the Datsun 240Z, without ever having owned, or driven one, but it doesn't diminish what it was or is.

Edited September 22, 2018 by Buffalowed Bill (see edit history)

[TerryB]

At this point we are up to ten pages of discussion on this topic.  From these pages I’ve gained some very crucial insite into the beliefs of many people I have never had the pleasure to meet in person.  From them I’ve made the following conclusions based on our discussions:

Matthew Hinson is to be thanked for allowing the thread and discussion to continue as he had considering removing it.

 

The discussion rarely focused on the product itself, the Tesla brand of automobiles.  No one complained the cars were junk, did not provide the level of quality expected and so forth.  If anything, those who did comment seemed impressed with them.  As a car site it seems the merits of Tesla would have been more based on automotive performance and quality than anything else.  

 

The heart of the discussion revolves around a profound dislike for Elon Musk and his business model.  Those who dislike him hope to live to see the company fail regardless of its impact on the US auto market innovation status and effect on US employment.  Recently we were told it would be better if this type of automobile would be better produced by a foreign company whom we can trust to be run the way we think it should be run.  We can ignore the fact that a large German company lied about emissions performance, after all they are more honest than the US competitor, correct?

 

What is pushed to the background is the simple fact that the success of this US based company  has forced global automakers to become players in a market that was once considered to be a novelty item with no chance of ever becoming a mainstream product.  The success of the Tesla electric auto has moved others to the market and will offer more choices to the buying public, a good outcome indeed.  If this carries over to other products like cleaner and quieter semi trucks that’s even better.

 

I hope for the sake of Tesla’s employees and suppliers they can work out their issues and continue to innovate in the industry.  A lot of safety items from the almost self driving cars promoted by Tesla have been carried over to cars we buy today, especially by Japanese brands who are quicker to adapt than our domestic brands.

 

So yes, thank you for your thoughts.  I know I am a cheerleader sometimes for the brand and it’s technology.  That is what I enjoy as a “car guy”.  Don’t loose sight of how Henry Ford was not always the perfect man with less than ideal ways to run a company.  History does repeat itself.

Edited September 22, 2018 by TerryB (see edit history)

[padgett]

Frankly I don't care one way or another. However the historical record says the smart way to bet is that Tesla will not last long in its current form. Give the Jag movement, acquisition by Tata would make sense. The volume is large enough to ensue continuation in some form (unlike DeLorean or Fisker) but most likely as a subsidiary.

 

 

 

 

[CarNucopia]

1 hour ago, TerryB said:

The heart of the discussion revolves around a profound dislike for Elon Musk and his business model.  Those who dislike him hope to live to see the company fail regardless of its impact on the US auto market innovation status and effect on US employment.  Recently we were told it would be better if this type of automobile would be better produced by a foreign company whom we can trust to be run the way we think it should be run.  We can ignore the fact that a large German company lied about emissions performance, after all they are more honest than the US competitor, correct?

 

What is pushed to the background is the simple fact that the success of this US based company  has forced global automakers to become players in a market that was once considered to be a novelty item with no chance of ever becoming a mainstream product.  The success of the Tesla electric auto has moved others to the market and will offer more choices to the buying public, a good outcome indeed.  If this carries over to other products like cleaner and quieter semi trucks that’s even better.

 

I hope for the sake of Tesla’s employees and suppliers they can work out their issues and continue to innovate in the industry.  A lot of safety items from the almost self driving cars promoted by Tesla have been carried over to cars we buy today, especially by Japanese brands who are quicker to adapt than our domestic brands.

 

So yes, thank you for your thoughts.  I know I am a cheerleader sometimes for the brand and it’s technology.  That is what I enjoy as a “car guy”.  Don’t loose sight of how Henry Ford was not always the perfect man with less than ideal ways to run a company.  History does repeat itself.

 

Why the need to characterize someone else's perspective? Particularly, since you have it wrong.

 

I'm not sure how VW is relevant to this discussion, but since they have paid 10s of billions in fines and people have gone to jail, they certainly were not ignored. And for those cheering Tesla, if they are found to have broken the law, shouldn't they face consequences too? Or do you look past that in the interest of advancing technology and nationalism?

Edited September 22, 2018 by Buick64C (see edit history)

[TerryB]

13 minutes ago, Buick64C said:

 

Why the need to characterize someone else's perspective? Particularly, since you have it wrong.

 

I'm not sure how VW is relevant to this discussion, but since they have paid 10s of billions in fines and people have gone to jail, they certainly were not ignored. And for those cheering Tesla, if they are found to have broken the law, shouldn't they face consequences too? Or do you look past that in the interest of advancing technology and nationalism?

No, breaking the law is wrong and has its consequences.  The reference to VW, who is also advertising an electric car is to highlight the misconception that EV from another source would be better since those companies are more established, inferring they would never do anything improper.  You are certainly welcome to your impressions of the world as I am of mine.  What I will restate is the arguments presented so far are not related to the product merits but rather individual opinions of the head of the company.  Is there something wrong with wanting a US technology company to succeed?  I am not blind to arguments about management style and I freely admit I place less emphasis on management dislikes than you do.  I lost my engineering job in a well known US company when it was sold to an investment group from India.  As a result of that loss I support US technology upstarts that are trying to innovate here. Let’s hope the management of Tesla gets its act together and continues to be a source of automotive innovation.

[mercer09]

Terry,

you  say Tesla promotes self driving cars........... they actually only took the technology from Mobileye and other companies. Yes they have incorporated the technology, but are also enduring the lawsuits for people who have been killed in their cars because of it.

 

Why this topic would ever be discontinued is beyond me. Soon nobody will be able to say a word in America. The PC of this country is totally out of control.

 

If you do see me at Hershey, not sure I am going, but if I do, please dont call the police on me for letting out a big fart.

 

I sometimes do that........................!

[capngrog]

I like Elon Musk.  He has shaken up both the auto and space industries with his (or his companies') innovative ideas.  In my opinion, both industries needed a bit of stirring up.

 

I hope Tesla (the corporation) succeeds for many reasons, but primarily because it is an American company and a leading innovator in the international automobile industry.

 

I hate the Tesla automobile and hate to admit (but never in writing) that it, by most accounts, is an excellent automobile.  "Makes no sense", you say.  Well yes, but on a visceral level, and as an old school, old car guy I can't stand the concept of our roadways being clogged with hordes of glorified golf carts silently and effortlessly going about their business.  I love the roar, clatter, bang and snort of the infernal combustion engine.  That video posted in this thread of Don Garlits' quest to hit 200 mph in his electric dragster makes me want to short circuit my lunch.  That thing (Don's electromatic demure dragster) is just ... well, it's just ... a non event.  What next, a human pod launched down the quarter mile by an electromagnetic catapult (as on our latest aircraft carrier)?   Soon, gone will be the violence, thoracic shock and sensory overload of a "fuelie" dragster hole shot  launching it to its quarter mile destiny 3 seconds later.  Line the electromatics up for their quarter mile duel, and they will launch like  hummingbirds to the traps a quarter mile away.  Will anyone notice?  Will anyone care?

 

Just sayin'.

 

Cheers,

Grog

 

P.S.  I hate electric cars.

[TerryB]

3 minutes ago, mercer09 said:

Terry,

you  say Tesla promotes self driving cars........... they actually only took the technology from Mobileye and other companies. Yes they have incorporated the technology, but are also enduring the lawsuits for people who have been killed in their cars because of it.

 

Why this topic would ever be discontinued is beyond me. Soon nobody will be able to say a word in America. The PC of this country is totally out of control.

 

If you do see me at Hershey, not sure I am going, but if I do, please dont call the police on me for letting out a big fart.

 

I sometimes do that........................!

After the collision in bright sunlight you are referencing, Tesla decided to do more /most of the technology in house to avoid the missed combination of events that led up to that crash.  They are not depending on others to do it all for them.  The self driving car non Tesla crash that claimed the life in AZ? I believe shows the technology is not there 100%.  

 

I will not be at Hershey, sure wish I was as I’m only 20 miles away from it.  Six years ago a non attentive driver decided to turn into my lane of travel while I was having a wonderful morning ride on my motorcycle.  I was the victim of that old l didn’t see the motorcycle syndrome by drivers in too much of a hurry to get somewhere.  With a spinal cord injury that has me paralyzed over 50% of my body and loss of my entire right leg from the accident I applaud the advent of technology that would have sensed my presence and alerted the driver to me.  It’s not perfect yet as you mention and people are too quick to think they do not have to pay attention when it’s activated and accidents still happpen.  I like to believe there will be a time when the technology, even before self driving is fully implemented will protect others from the type of accident I was in.

 

Please fart to your hearts content.  Shoot it towards the East on Rt.322 if you would like me to be it’s target?.

[mercer09]

very sorry to hear that Terry.

 

thanks!

[CarNucopia]

1 hour ago, TerryB said:

No, breaking the law is wrong and has its consequences.  The reference to VW, who is also advertising an electric car is to highlight the misconception that EV from another source would be better since those companies are more established, inferring they would never do anything improper.  You are certainly welcome to your impressions of the world as I am of mine.  What I will restate is the arguments presented so far are not related to the product merits but rather individual opinions of the head of the company.  Is there something wrong with wanting a US technology company to succeed?  I am not blind to arguments about management style and I freely admit I place less emphasis on management dislikes than you do.  I lost my engineering job in a well known US company when it was sold to an investment group from India.  As a result of that loss I support US technology upstarts that are trying to innovate here. Let’s hope the management of Tesla gets its act together and continues to be a source of automotive innovation.

 

Nothing wrong with wanting a US tech company to succeed. It's a matter of should a company and person be rewarded for being unethical? My issue isn't that I don't just Elon. The man has accomplished some incredible things. But, I think it's wrong and sets a bad precedent to reward someone who is habitually dishonest. It's not about him, its about his behaviour. 

 

 

 

42 minutes ago, capngrog said:

I like Elon Musk.  He has shaken up both the auto and space industries with his (or his companies') innovative ideas.  In my opinion, both industries needed a bit of stirring up.

 

I hope Tesla (the corporation) succeeds for many reasons, but primarily because it is an American company and a leading innovator in the international automobile industry.

 

I hate the Tesla automobile and hate to admit (but never in writing) that it, by most accounts, is an excellent automobile.  "Makes no sense", you say.  Well yes, but on a visceral level, and as an old school, old car guy I can't stand the concept of our roadways being clogged with hordes of glorified golf carts silently and effortlessly going about their business.  I love the roar, clatter, bang and snort of the infernal combustion engine.  That video posted in this thread of Don Garlits' quest to hit 200 mph in his electric dragster makes me want to short circuit my lunch.  That thing (Don's electromatic demure dragster) is just ... well, it's just ... a non event.  What next, a human pod launched down the quarter mile by an electromagnetic catapult (as on our latest aircraft carrier)?   Soon, gone will be the violence, thoracic shock and sensory overload of a "fuelie" dragster hole shot  launching it to its quarter mile destiny 3 seconds later.  Line the electromatics up for their quarter mile duel, and they will launch like  hummingbirds to the traps a quarter mile away.  Will anyone notice?  Will anyone care?

 

Just sayin'.

 

Cheers,

Grog

 

P.S.  I hate electric cars.

 

For my own driving, I want the same thing you want. But for the 95% of people on the road who don't care about the experience, make them as safe and environmentally friendly as possible. Though I'd actually like a Model S but would buy a car from a company I don't believe will exist long enough to honor the warranty.

 

 

 

39 minutes ago, TerryB said:

After the collision in bright sunlight you are referencing, Tesla decided to do more /most of the technology in house to avoid the missed combination of events that led up to that crash.  They are not depending on others to do it all for them.  The self driving car non Tesla crash that claimed the life in AZ? I believe shows the technology is not there 100%.  

 

I will not be at Hershey, sure wish I was as I’m only 20 miles away from it.  Six years ago a non attentive driver decided to turn into my lane of travel while I was having a wonderful morning ride on my motorcycle.  I was the victim of that old l didn’t see the motorcycle syndrome by drivers in too much of a hurry to get somewhere.  With a spinal cord injury that has me paralyzed over 50% of my body and loss of my entire right leg from the accident I applaud the advent of technology that would have sensed my presence and alerted the driver to me.  It’s not perfect yet as you mention and people are too quick to think they do not have to pay attention when it’s activated and accidents still happpen.  I like to believe there will be a time when the technology, even before self driving is fully implemented will protect others from the type of accident I was in.

 

Please fart to your hearts content.  Shoot it towards the East on Rt.322 if you would like me to be it’s target?.

 

Not to be contentious, but this is an example of the dishonesty I'm talking about. Tesla didn't bring it inhouse because they wanted to. MobileEye, the hardware vendor, pulled the product because they felt Tesla was using it in an unsafe manner. Tesla did claim it was their choice, but this happened long before their own hardware was ready. They were caught completely off-guard and it took years to get their cars to parity with the old hardware.

Edited September 22, 2018 by Buick64C (see edit history)

[TerryB]

NASA didn’t listen to engineers when they were told about the effects of cold air on solid rocket booster o-rings and paid the price with the Challenger disaster.  Rushing things can have its consequences as we see in all forms in the technology world.   Engineers say “not yet” and management says NOW!  Unfortunately it comes down to that at times.

[8E45E]

3 hours ago, padgett said:

However the historical record says the smart way to bet is that Tesla will not last long in its current form

 

No pun intended??!?  Are you saying Tesla will be 21st century version of Oldsmobile and Studebaker who migrated from direct current to gasoline in the end?? 

 

Craig

[John348]

I really am puzzled by many of the posters in this thread, I am interpreting that some people don't care for Elon Musk for some reason or another so they wish him failure. Some people are worried about what he is being accused of doing to share holders, really? you guys are concerned about the shareholders, I think failure would be a lot worse to those shareholder's as well as employees. One who is even a member of this site  He may be accused of some unethical things, and that still has to be proven. What about the ethics of Henry Ford and Harry Bennett at the battle of the overpass in 1937? 

for those who might not be familiar please read, and important part of American History as well as Automotive

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/how-the-ford-motor-company-won-a-battle-and-lost-ground-45814533/

 

I also want to thank the Moderators for deleting some post that I had read in my email notification, that are no longer on the thread..... thanks again

 

Edited September 23, 2018 by John348 (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

Amazing and sad that this crap has gone on for TEN pages on an "antique" website. Nothing that will be owned by members of our family, but I'm sure we will be forced to pay for another unwanted service. Bob