Packard starts stalls starts stalls

[billorn]

I have a friend in our local club with a 35 or 36 Packard sedan that will start but stalls out in a few seconds no matter what he does. Then it will start up again then stall out again. He has a electric fuel pump and he says theres enough gas going to the carb. He drove the car a few days ago and it drove fine but got in the car the next morning and it was acting up like this. No other changes. He thinks its a vacuum leak from his power brake booster. Could that be it? Do Packard's this old even have power breaks? It would probably have to be a really big leak. I'm going over there tomorrow to help him but I have never seen a vacuum leak make a car start but stall right away.

 

Is it possible?

 

Any advice? Thanks!!!!

[JACK M]

If this happened all at once then some basic trouble shooting is in order.

Vacuum leak? possibly, but I would do some electrical testing before I tore onto the brake system.

Could even be a plugged up fuel filter only letting a tiny bit of fuel pass thru.

A bit dangerous but see if it will stay running if you dribble gas down its throat when it starts.

Edited September 3, 2018 by JACK M (see edit history)

[Owen_Dyneto]

Yes, all the 35-36 models except the junior "120" model have vacuum assisted mechanical brakes.

[Grimy]

For what it MAY be worth, as I'm not familiar with the Packard set-up:  1936-38 Pierces returned to B-K vacuum-assisted brakes actuated by a 1/2-inch vacuum pipe from the intake manifold.  The vacuum cylinder is remote, under the rear seat floor, and the vacuum is drawn through both hard piping and rubber hose.  About 10 years ago, I solved a lean condition on a friend's 1936 sedan when I found that a previous owner had used heater hose, rather than the correct very thick, heavily-reinforced vacuum hose, which does not hold up for long, and can be sucked closed and flexes too much.  Be sure than any rubber-based tubing to the vacuum cylinder is **vacuum hose** which is relatively expensive--IIRC about $4/linear foot 10 years ago. 

[Graham Man]

Is there a twist ignition switch?  Typical for the switch to have a bad circuit (run vs start) to the ignition, in later cars.  I would check the ignition power before tearing other components apart.  Should have power to the coil and distributer after it dies.  If it is fuel, the carburetor will be dry soon and it will not start at all, I use a small gas tank as a gravity feed to check.  Had one with a plugged fuel line do the same thing till the carb ran out of fuel.  Put a little compressed air to the line and listen for bubbles in the tank.  The final thing has been the most common...reach under the car an tap the fuel tank, you would not believe how many times they are just out of fuel, sucks just enough fuel to start then dies.

 

Good Luck!

[billorn]

Welp we had no luck with it. Zip. The way he described it to me is just how it is. Starts right up runs for a few seconds then slowly dies. Pumping throttle sometimes helps but it always dies eventually. Acting like its out of gas but theres plenty of gas in it and it gets to the carb pretty easy. Electric pump fills up filter bowl almost instantly so fuel flows and gets to carb. Doesnt seem like an electric problem because it will start right up then slowly die out. Then it will start again when you hit the starter a second later. We can sometimes rev it up but sometimes it stalls before we can rev it. But it always stalls. So it has gas and spark. He still thinks vaccum leak because he said that sometimes the idle surges but if he messes with the controller knob for the power brakes it goes away. We couldnt get it up in the air to see the power brake booster or check hoses so maybe thats it. I still dont know how a vaccum leak could do that but it looks like everything else is working right. He did say that it drove perfectly to dinner the night before then he went to drive it in the morning and it was like it is now. He didnt touch anything and nothing changed. It HAS to be something simple. Hes pretty frustrated and says hes going to tow it to the shop and let them figure it out. I feel like I let him down mostly because I just stood there watching him fuss with it without being able to give any answers. I hate that. Hopefully he finds out what it is and its something simple. I just dont know what else it could be.

[JFranklin]

Whenever I think there is a fuel starvation I like to give a shot of starting fluid or gasoline just as it starts to die. If it picks up it definitely is fuel related.

[cahartley]

After reading again did someone, perhaps, overhaul the carburetor and install a neoprene tipped needle?

There should be a law against anyone selling kits with the "unassisted" neoprene needles as they have a tendency to stick in the seat.

Like this 

 

The kits that come like THIS, with the little "clippy thingy" that connects the needle to the float lever, actually work fine.

[edinmass]

Ok, if the electric fuel pump is new, and wired to the ignition circuit it is very possible the coil is undervolting. Electric fuel pumps draw high amperage and the ignition system is only designed for four or five amps, thus it’s possible the problem is electrical. A fuel pump power supply should run directly to a power buss with correct fuses and a cut out for accidents to shut down the fuel pressure. Less than one percent of the cars have aftermarket fuel pumps installed correctly. If the car is “running and has pleanty of fuel” it MUST be electrical. 

[Frank DuVal]

Take the potato out of the exhaust pipe.

 

Or dead mouse, etc.

 

You might be able to loosen the exhaust pipe to manifold connection to eliminate a restricted exhaust system as the cause.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Frank DuVal (see edit history)

[JFranklin]

1 hour ago, Frank DuVal said:

Take the potato out of the exhaust pipe.

 

Or dead mouse, etc.

 

You might be able to loosen the exhaust pipe to manifold connection to eliminate a restricted exhaust system as the cause.

 

A good thought, but try my suggestion in post #7 first. A flow chart goes easy to hard for a reason.

[billorn]

I called him and he hasnt taken it anywhere yet because his shop cant get to it for a week or two. Im going to try to go over there one day after work and see what else we can do. I think putting some fuel down the carb is a great idea and we will start there and see if its a fuel problem. Ill also ask him how he has the electric pump hooked up.......never thought of it stealing power from the coil before but that makes sense. But since it starts every time and then stalls out its probably fuel somehow. I wonder if his gas tank is clean?????

 

I will do more checking and report back. We both thank you for all your help!!!!!

[Grimy]

A boat tank/can with gravity feed will resolve the issue of whether the carb is receiving sufficient gasoline.

[JFranklin]

Save the boat tank cause maybe the carb is not taking the gas offered. If you need to check flow just disconnect the fuel line at the carb. That will of course only prove gas is getting that far. Now the carb needs to process it into the manifold.

Edited September 5, 2018 by JFranklin (see edit history)

[Graham Man]

You can uses starting fluid to keep it running, just spray in the carb when it starts to die, safer/easier than raw gasoline.

 

Use compressed air to blow the fuel line back to the tank, you should hear bubbles in the tank.

 

Still would like to see how the ignition switch is setup/working?  If it has a cut off switch for the fuel pump that could be the problem also.  When you leave the "stock" ignition/fuel system it is anybody's guess what could be wrong.  I have removed several electric fuel pumps from my mechanical pump cars, I have had fewer problems with the mechanical pumps.

[Frank DuVal]

2 hours ago, JFranklin said:

A good thought, but try my suggestion in post #7 first. A flow chart goes easy to hard for a reason.

 

Absolutely! Always try the simple things first. The mechanical version of, if you hear hoofbeats, and are in the western US, think horses, not Zebras.  AKA  Occam's razor .?

 

 

[Zimm63]

Dirt in the needle valve allowing too much fuel to get to the engine?  That will make it stall but restart OK.  

[Restorer32]

I think Ockham quit shaving years ago.

 

[JFranklin]

6 hours ago, Zimm63 said:

Dirt in the needle valve allowing too much fuel to get to the engine?  That will make it stall but restart OK.  

 

A clue to that problem would be black exhaust, and a flooded engine is not an easy restart.

[JACK M]

On ‎9‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 1:30 PM, Graham Man said:

You can uses starting fluid to keep it running, just spray in the carb when it starts to die, safer/easier than raw gasoline.

 

 

 

I cant get behind starting fluid, it can cause more harm than good.

If it wont run on gasoline there is something more serious going on.

Kinda dangerous but a trickle of gasoline is the test.

I use one of those pressure cans, but maybe a squirt bottle like a used up glass cleaner or the likes may work.

[Frank DuVal]

Problem with holding a can or other open container of gasoline and pouring it in a carburetor is when it backfires,? the can catches on fire, your reaction is to drop or fling it, spreading gasoline, now flaming gasoline, across the engine, fenders, arms, floor, workbench.....

 

Seen it, don't want to ever see it again!

 

So, SMALLLLLLLLLL container! Maybe a pill bottle with less than an 1/4 ounce. Something that will make a small fire you can  put out smothering it with a small rag/ extinguisher, water bottle.... before a conflagration takes hold. 

 

Be careful......

 

And now a tip from the aircraft people. If a carburetor catches on fire, keep it running or cranking and FLOOR it. The flames will be sucked into the intake manifold. Of course if this does not work within seconds, Extinguisher time.

 

A big CO2 extinguisher is handy in the shop, no residue. Cleaning ABC dry chemical is an awful job. But better a mess than nothing to clean except with a buldozer.

[JFranklin]

Put the gas in a squirt oil can, or use a can of starting fluid. Less chance for trouble.

[JACK M]

If it wont run on gasoline you have something wrong.

Staring fluid cleans any lubrication from the cylinders and will cause damage.

An oil squirt can is a good idea.

But we all know that this method in any form is a bit dangerous so proceed with caution.

[billorn]

Just to follow up with this he took it to a shop and they found the electric fuel pump was bad and only ran sometimes which was blocking flow. He says he just installed it at the beginning of summer so it went bad pretty fast. They installed a new pump and made a bypass so even if this one goes bad the engine pump will be able to pull gas around it. The bad electric pump was blocking all flow even tho its supposed to be flow thru. Their still haveing problems getting it to idle. It keeps surging and they dont know why. But at least it is running again.

 

My friend thanks you for all the help!!!!