1939 Pontiac Woodie advice

[ng8264723]

I am picking up my first prewar car this monday.  I have rebuilt 60's and 70's cars.  So I can turn a wrench!  I have done complete rotisserie restorations on Stangs.  This is different though.  I have been looking for parts catlopgs and forums and I can't find that much info!  The car has all new wood but the powertrain is all disassembled.  There is no glass or rubber for the glass.  I have no idea where to buy new weatherstripping or install it!  Does anyone have a Woodie or know anything about these cars?  I have seen one listed on Hemmings for 55K in driver shape.  What are these things worth?

Thanks

Chris

[GARY F]

First join POCI,  all Pontiac. Their website and monthly mag. has all kinds of info. For weather stripping look up Steele rubber.    That is Pontiac Oakland Club International.

[TerryB]

Whole new world dealing with pre-WWII cars.  They are not order from the catalog cars unless you have a Ford.

[Rusty_OToole]

You might be surprised what is available. I am not familiar with Pontiac  as much as Chrysler products. I understand it has a flathead six cylinder engine and 3 speed trans, pretty conventional and not difficult to rebuild. It may be a bit of a challenge but not impossible if you like working on cars.

[Bloo]

Most active club AFAIK is the Early Times Chapter of POCI:

http://earlytimeschapter.org/

 

California Pontiac Restoration has parts:

http://www.pontiacparts.net/

 

Welcome to the forum!

 

Edited August 17, 2018 by Bloo (see edit history)

[46 woodie]

There are seven 1939 Pontiac Station Wagons listed in the 2017, National Woodie Club Roster so it's a fairly rare car. Reproduction parts for Station Wagons are scarce. It's simply not worth tooling up for so few cars. A couple of companies that have Woodie, window channel and weatherstrip etc. are Restoration Supply Co. and Restoration Specialties and Supply. Make sure you have all the metal brackets that came on the car when it left the factory. You mention that the car has new wood, does it match the old wood perfectly? I have a 46' Ford Wagon and I can tell you that finding a third seat, window pulls, door locks and rain gutters, can take forever to find  and are very costly. I would try to locate pictures of a '39 Wagon and compare them with the car. Can you post any pictures?

[ng8264723]

Here is the car in current state

[ng8264723]

New upholestry and new wood.  Car is in primer.  It has two parts cars but they are 4 doors.  There is a pile of parts with it but I have not seen them yet

[ng8264723]

Obviously, it needs a lot of work but the bones seem good.  I have not even opened the hood so I do not know what has ben done underneath.  When I pick it up monday I will take some more shots.  The doors open and shut nice and appear to be well contructed  

[Gary_Ash]

That woodie was constructed by the late Mark Keilen, who used an original 1939 Pontiac woodie as a model as he restored it back in 2005-2006.  As with the original, he used the cowl and nose plus the chassis and engine from a 1939 sedan.  All of the wood in your car is new; there wasn't any "old wood" or metal parts from another woodie.  Mark fabricated the seat frames from scratch, again using the other car to take dimensions.  I used to drop by his shop and watch him work on the restoration projects, including the woodies.  Unfortunately, Mark died just two weeks ago, days before the scheduled auction of his shop equipment and a number of cars, including your new acquisition.  I think he finished the first Pontiac woodie, yours is the 2nd one, which was scheduled for the brother of the guy that owned the first one.  I don't know whatever happened to that deal, but the 2nd one never got finished.  To make the woodie parts, he had to buy a big shaper and special cutters to make the finger joints in the wood, plus saws and a planer.  I saw Mark only a few days before he died and expressed my surprise that the woodie was still in his shop after all these years.  He smiled and shrugged his shoulders, admitted that it was just one project that hadn't been completed but that he wished he could work in someone else's shop to finish it.  If he knew that his time was short, he sure didn't let on.  Mark was a superb craftsman and one of only about a dozen shops in Massachusetts that restored cars, as opposed to a collision body shop.  His shop was in N. Attleboro, Mass, and I think the woodie was the only project he never finished.  He did two cars for me. 

 

I'm glad you bought the woodie and wish you luck completing it.  Keep us posted!

[Gary_Ash]

I found some more old photos of the woodie in progress.  I also found photos of the other woodie that Mark restored.  Maybe the pictures will help you complete the car.  Also, Google "Petersen Museum 1939 Pontiac" and you'll find many images of a fully restored 1939 Pontiac woodie that is (was?) at the Museum in Los Angeles.  If it's still there, it would be worth a trip to see a complete one, especially if you make some arrangements to open doors, take inside photos, etc.

 

 

[mercer09]

as to woodie values- prices are all over the place and prices have been dropping like crazy.........

 

what is the car worth to you and that is ALL that matters. you will spend mucho $ finishing up this car. Nice bones, still a lot to be done!

[auburnseeker]

Looks like a good project that you can have fun with,  but value will always be a bit hard to determine as it isn't a true woodie.  Build it the way you want and don't worry about it.  Most people will never know or care, unless you try to pass it off as an original woodie when you sell it. 

[Gary_Ash]

I found one more photo of a '39 Pontiac woodie on the Wall Street Journal website from June 19, 2018.  I don't have a subscription, so I couldn't see the full article, but here's a good photo.

 

 

[46 woodie]

If I'm reading post #10 correctly, the Woodie in question, is a "phantom" build, using a sedan as a start. That changes everything. You need to do a complete inventory of what the builder has and planed to use for all the metal brackets, window cranks, door locks etc. You are basically taking over a project, but unlike a restoration, you have no idea of what go on. Now that we have a clearer picture, let me propose something, and PLEASE my fellow A.A.C.A. members don't crucify me for what I'm going to propose. There are more Woodie, Station Wagons on the road today that have modern engines and drivetrains, then stock vehicles. You may want to think about a modified car. All are welcome in the National Woodie Club and perfectly restored cars and modified cars get along nicely, "It's all about the wood". It would give you a little leeway on the construction of the car. As I originally stated in post #6, finding original parts for this car will be very hard and you really don't even know what you need to look for.

[auburnseeker]

7 hours ago, 46 woodie said:

If I'm reading post #10 correctly, the Woodie in question, is a "phantom" build, using a sedan as a start. That changes everything. You need to do a complete inventory of what the builder has and planed to use for all the metal brackets, window cranks, door locks etc. You are basically taking over a project, but unlike a restoration, you have no idea of what go on. Now that we have a clearer picture, let me propose something, and PLEASE my fellow A.A.C.A. members don't crucify me for what I'm going to propose. There are more Woodie, Station Wagons on the road today that have modern engines and drivetrains, then stock vehicles. You may want to think about a modified car. All are welcome in the National Woodie Club and perfectly restored cars and modified cars get along nicely, "It's all about the wood". It would give you a little leeway on the construction of the car. As I originally stated in post #6, finding original parts for this car will be very hard and you really don't even know what you need to look for.

Being it isn't an original though,  you can also take liberties in what you use to construct or supplement any missing or needed parts with. I would just try to use era correct stuff. Nothing is more glaring than some funky 80's part in a 30's car.  Those door arm rests used in Chevy pickups seem to find their way into everything.  Looking quite hideous as they match nothing else. 

[John348]

I was always under the impression that the Pontiac woody wagon used the straight 8. and not the 6 cylinder.  I know Chevrolet marketed the Station Wagon as a commercial vehicle and listed it with the trucks in 1939.  In 1940 they had two wagons the Master Deluxe was listed with the cars and the Master 85 with the the trucks

 

   

[46 woodie]

What I'm suggesting is, that as scarce as they are, you might be able to incorporate Ford, Woodie door latches, handles and window regulators. As I mentioned they are scarce but sometimes available on E-Bay or thru the NWC magazine, The Woodie Times. Finding '39 Pontiac Station Wagon regulators and latches will be almost impossible. No, not any modern parts. My goal would be to construct this car so that only Pontiac or Woodie owners would be able to tell that it's not original. There is a beautiful "Phantom" Woodie on the cover and an article about the car, in the September, 2012 Woodie Times. The owner has a business of producing data plates,

and can be contacted at www.datatags.com. I would ask him what he used for hardware. Except for the fact that his car is a two door, you can't tell the difference.

[John348]

55 minutes ago, 46 woodie said:

What I'm suggesting is, that as scarce as they are, you might be able to incorporate Ford, Woodie door latches, handles and window regulators. As I mentioned they are scarce but sometimes available on E-Bay or thru the NWC magazine, The Woodie Times. Finding '39 Pontiac Station Wagon regulators and latches will be almost impossible. No, not any modern parts. My goal would be to construct this car so that only Pontiac or Woodie owners would be able to tell that it's not original. There is a beautiful "Phantom" Woodie on the cover and an article about the car, in the September, 2012 Woodie Times. The owner has a business of producing data plates,

and can be contacted at www.datatags.com. I would ask him what he used for hardware. Except for the fact that his car is a two door, you can't tell the difference.

 

 Would the hardware be corporate GM as far as latches and window cranks? The tailgate is entire separate issue

[Bloo]

Fisher/GM doors were made of wood just 3 years prior.

[ng8264723]

That’s pretty disappointing.  I may just sell it.  I found a complete done for 50k.  I rather spend the cash and buy a real one.  I don’t want to dump a lot of cash I. This and not be able to at least sell it later for 40-50k.  Really not worth it.  Mark told the auctioneer that everything was there to complete it... well see

what a drag

[ng8264723]

I also have many hot rods so I do not want another old car with a 369 Cherie.  The idea was to make it original.  

[ng8264723]

I just looked st the one in Hemmings it is 55k and cones with a delux 6...

so sone cane with 6’s

maybe I should by this one sell the other...

[ng8264723]

Gary I was thinking .  Mark never told the auctioneer I he car was a “phantom”.  How can u be sure?

[Gary_Ash]

I'm sure it's a replica because Mark told me the story of the two cars, and I watched the car get built.  The car with the blue fenders and sheet metal (see post #11 above) was brought into the shop to be restored by one of two brothers.  They had inherited the car from their father.  However, they each wanted the car, so they worked out a plan that Mark would restore the original while building a second one identical to the first.  I don't remember exactly when this was but perhaps as early as 2001-2002.  I was in and out of the shop fairly often back then, as I worked only 5 minutes away, and I used to go visit him at lunch time.  After 2002, I had changed jobs and moved farther away, so I didn't get there as often, maybe a couple of times a year. as I had him painting parts for another project of mine.  I watched Mark put the floor platform on the 2nd chassis, form the wood pieces, and we discussed the technology needed for the complex finger joints in the wood framing.  I can only guess that the car remained unfinished because brother #2 either lost interest or ran out of money.  Mark probably got the car on a mechanic's lien.  I forget why he bought at least three Pontiacs of that vintage, but he needed mechanical parts for both cars.  I knew Mark through the local Studebaker club, in which he had been fairly active, from 1996.  The photos in post #11 were taken in 2006 when Mark held a shop tour for the club.  He was just finishing the original car then.  I don't know the names of the two brothers, but will ask around to see if anyone remembers.

 

In the portrait of Mark in post #10 above, you see the right rear quarter of the original car as Mark was replacing a piece of rotted wood, but keeping most of the old wood.  That is not a quarter that is on your car: note the darkened wood.  But, Mark was careful to copy each piece exactly, so while your's is not a totally original woodie, it is an excellent replica.  The other surviving cars have probably had most of their wood replaced anyway. 

 

If you collect up all of the engine parts, take them to Dana Hard at CAMCO in Weymouth, MA (www.camcoracing.com).  While Dana builds lots of dragster engines, he also does older engines, including straight 6's and 8's and flatheads.  It's an excellent, well-run shop, and he'll get your engine done quickly.  No, it won't be cheap, but it will be good.  The photo you posted of the engine block makes it look like the basic clean-up and machining had been done and the valves installed, so maybe it just needs to have the assembly completed. 

[ng8264723]

I’m not sure if it is worth finishing if not real.  I may just sell it and buy one done.  This does not seem like a deal at all.  A replica is really not worth much.  It was not advertised as such.  I wonder if he found an original VIN?  Is there any way to decipher the VIN’S

[Gary_Ash]

Maybe you should just sell the car and the spares to someone who really wants a woodie and is prepared to put the labor and cash in.  It will be a nice, fun car when done.  There are many cars on the antique car circuit that do not have original bodies.  The auctioneer woman told me that Mark had said he thought there was another 900 hours of work to finish the car.  At Mark's $90/hour rate (cheap), it would have been over $80,000 to have the car finished by him, may be why it never got done.  The pity is that some street-rodder will probably wind up with it.  As of this past Tuesday at 4:00 pm, the auctioneer had only an offer of $7,500 for the woodie and parts cars package, so you got it cheap.  Maybe one of the people reading these posts will make you an offer.

 

There were no "VIN" numbers in 1937, but the car's original serial number plate is probably still on the cowl or elsewhere on the car.  It would link back to the 1937 sedan that was used for the chassis.  That's all that is needed to register it, along with a bill of sale.  Title on old cars not required in Mass.

[46 woodie]

If you are in the market for a Woodie, then I would suggest joining the National Woodie Club. In the current issue of the Woodie Times there are about two dozen cars for sale at various prices. The car you are looking at has potential for a resto-rod and with the right marketing should sell. As with any "phantom" or re-creation there are a number of issues and as long as someone isn't trying to deceive anyone, it's ok. I don't think $7500 is out of line for what work was done to the car but the issue is how much money and parts are required to finish it. If I had the space I would pay the $7500, I can't wait to do another Woodie.

[60FlatTop]

16 hours ago, ng8264723 said:

That’s pretty disappointing.  I may just sell it.  I found a complete done for 50k.  I rather spend the cash and buy a real one.  I don’t want to dump a lot of cash I. This and not be able to at least sell it later for 40-50k.  Really not worth it.  Mark told the auctioneer that everything was there to complete it... well see

what a drag

 

Someday I may be asked the secret to my long marriage to the same woman. I will just smile and say "I have owned over 150 cars". Disappointment and being a drag are easy to overcome with cars.

Bernie

[ng8264723]

Gary

all cars in Ma need a title now.  I’m not sure when u last registered an old car but that law has changed.  I will grab everything tomorrow see what I got an make a decision.  Something is wrong here the auctioneer said she spoke with Mark extensively about the car and he NEVER said it was a replica.  I spoke with her today about it.  Seems like he was a straight up guy why would he lie?  I would like to prove it by some research.  I wish I could...perhaps the serial number will help

Edited August 19, 2018 by ng8264723 (see edit history)

[Gary_Ash]

Mark never lied, it just seems that there was a miscommunication.  The auctIoneer was experienced at selling off auto body shop equipment, not restoration shops.  I doubt the subject ever came up.  

 

Pontiac didn’t build the woodie bodies, they were all built by Hercules-Campbell on cowl-chassis shipped from GM.  See http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/h/hercules_campbell/hercules_campbell.htm

 

 

 

[ng8264723]

I disagree the auctioneer was told the car was a woodie plain And simple.  No misconduct there.  So I am a little upset if there was false advertising.  Anyway I will che k out the link and go from there

[mercer09]

for 7500. you couldnt do the wood you have-you stole the car. ..........

[SC38dls]

If it is a reputable auction house and you talk with them I would bet they will work something out with you. Talk to them and have all of your information ready. Have the numbers from the tag and/or the frame. They may be able to determine if it was an original woody bodied car or something else. If you got it for $7500 it may still be a great deal you may want to keep. If the parts cars give you everything you need it just may be a sweetheart deal well worth working on. You may end up enjoying the process and satisfaction of completing the project. If it was just a flip with all the woodies for sale you may have a hard time making a profit anyway. Don’t just assume it is all bad or good do your homework and talk to the sellers. 

I’ll get off the soapbox now. But I would love to be in a position to have that project at that price. 

Have fun. 

Dave S 

[46 woodie]

SC, I think that we have determined that the car started it's life as a sedan. As with any Woodie, the chassis can be restored and the car can be re-wooded. The biggest issue is all the door mechanisms, latches, pulls, brackets and all the unique Woodie parts. I have owned and researched Woodies and have owned my '46 Ford for 20 years now and I can tell you authentic station wagon parts for a '39 Pontiac Station Wagon are scarce as hens teeth. I scour the fields at Hershey every year and look for Ford Wagon parts and seldom do I find any. It would probably be cost prohibited to build this car in any way except to resto-rod it. Build it as true as you can using parts from any assortment of cars, that make this car presentable and have fun with it.

[SC38dls]

Ok, that makes sense if you know for sure it was not a woody. I still think talking with the auction house and having a discussion regarding the original description of the car affected the reason to bid. If all you want to do is dump it for what you have in it and not have the hassle of selling it. If it’s a flip car that obviously is going to change the value. If it’s a keeper it may still be a good deal but you know it is not going to be as valuable as a true woody. Why wouldn’t you discuss the original auction description? I’m under the impression the buyer feels it was mid-represented. 

Dave S 

[ng8264723]

Well I discussed the car with the auctioneer, the owner of the property (whom the late Mark Keilan rented space from for 30 years) and Mark's best friend.  The car is  WOODIE.  Gary has been saying information on this website that I believe he thinks is correct but that is NOT what was told to me.  I also had the auctioneer discuss the car with Mark's widow.  I am not sure if Gary is referring to my car or another but I have multiple people informing me that this is a Woodie.  I will also point out that the $7,500 offer was refused.  I will not disclose what I paid  (it is noone's business) but I will say it was not $7,500!  I have no idea how everyone came to the conculsion as to what I paid!  I also did some digging in Mark's paperwork and found a pic of the car when it was brought in.  It was not a sedan!  I will post the pic this week.  I have the windows and all the wood from the car.  I honestly believe Gary although meaning no harm is wrong.  At this point I have the auctioneer, the owner of the property, Marks best friend and his wife all telling me it is real......................

It is real as far as I am concerned.  At this point rove it is not!  I also have all the parts to finish it!

[Taylormade]

I think Gary and the rest of the folks on the forum were just trying to answer your questions as best they could.  It’s not our job to prove your car is or is not a genuine woodie, but to offer advice on finding the truth.  This seems to be your main concern.  If you want a nice car that is fun to drive and show at local events, it makes no difference.  If you want to strive for national awards and high resale value, you’d better make sure of the car’s origin before you spend big bucks to finish the Pontiac.  The word of an auctioneer, a friend or a wife, however well intentioned, do not constitute proof that the car started out as a woodie.  You need numbers.  Trust me, if you offer the completed car at a premium price in the future, and a prospective buyer asked for documentation  that the vehicle is a real woodie, “Prove it’s not!” is not going to go over very well.

[46 woodie]

The point I am making is, that make sure you have all pertinent parts that go to the car, if it is a true Woodie. For example '41 thru '48 Ford Station Wagon rain gutters are almost non existent . I have seen them offered for $5000. The metal strip that goes over the windshield that holds down the roof material is non existent, in 40 years playing with woodies I have never seen one offered. Woodie owners that don't have these pieces use "hiddem-welt". To the average person, it looks great and as if it belongs there and most do look great. To someone that knows '41/'48 Ford Wagons it sticks out like a sore thumb.

[ng8264723]

 I never asked for anyone to tell me it was real or not that advice was off it it was never asked .   Obviously I want to make sure that it was real before I spend a lot of money on the restoration .   Restored many mustangs and I register them and prove that they are what they are .   I cannot find a way to authenticate this the Mustangs a really easy the VIN number tells what is with this car the serial number does not give me that type of information it’s odd .   From what I have gathered I spoke with some more people today who knew mark well was that this was the parts car for the first what he did I’ll send a picture of the parts car before he started his restoration on it .   I do love the car and will restore it but I will also register it as a woody because that’s what it is .