Hydraulic Brakes on a ‘35’ Buick.

[Jim Nelson]

I have a ‘35’  58  Vicky.  I am modifing the brakes to hydraulic for safety reasons.  This is to be a driving car.  Mandatory to have hydraulic brakes in my world.   Possibly use the brake system from a  1936  Buick ?   I would like to hear from anyone who has done this safety mod.   Maybe use the 1936  torque tube rear axel with the hydraulic system in place !   Both rear’s have the leaf spring mount.  I would possibly have to replace the front spindles from the ‘36’ that has hydraulic parts in place.   Since I would need to add a master cylinder,  I would install a dual system MC.   Front piston to the front  brakes and back piston of the MC to the rear brakes.  What am I missing ?  

[John_S_in_Penna]

Jim, you might save the time and money and keep

your car authentic.  I never heard reports, from 1935

or now, that Buick's brakes from the factory were

ineffective or dangerous, and those cars have been

driven millions of miles.

 

SO MANY 1934-35 Buicks are so modified that they

have lost their authentic appeal.  Speaking for myself,

if an otherwise authentic car came up for sale and had

non-factory items--12-volt conversion, newer brakes

or suspension, etc.-- I'd sorrowfully pass it up.

[Jim Nelson]

Hi John,  Thanks for the comments.  Would you give me your e-mail address?   I would like your opinion on some other things.   Mine is :  oldbuickjim@gmail.com   

[JohnD1956]

How far have you engineered this change over?  I have never done this myself and I am not an engineering student , but if I recall correctly, you have to consider brake pedal mount, angle, and swing to ensure you have enough movement to push enough fluid in the MC to operate the brakes.   Also, will you need a portioning valve, and a check valve to maintain enough static pressure in the lines while the brake is off?   Also I would just check to envision a route for the brake lines themselves.  Protection from road hazards and remote from potential exhaust heat, that type of thing.   I would also consider what you intend to use the car for.   I'm pretty certain no one who manufactured that car ever thought it would be on the highway for 1-3 hours at a time.  And even local use was probably not that extensive or intensive, except probably in the Rockies out west.  If your plan is for round town type driving, or back road use, then that might help engineer the system regarding how extensive the modification needs to be.

[John_S_in_Penna]

27 minutes ago, Jim Nelson said:

Hi John,  Thanks for the comments.  Would you give me your e-mail address?   I would like your opinion on some other things.   Mine is :  oldbuickjim@gmail.com   

 

Actually, a PM (private message) on our forum

will work well.  Just hold the cursor over my

user-name and then click the "Message" symbol.

 

Congratulations on owning an interesting car!

[Jim Nelson]

Hi John,   I am a 1930’s kind a guy.   Design’s and the massive engineering changes during that time keep me enjoying how some manufacturer solved the problems their way only to have the next guy improve on it.   Then the changes in manufacturing of things like all steel bodies, hydraulic brakes, safety glass and just the great designs.  Why some manufacturers held off important safety items like hydraulic brakes untill 1940 (Ford).  I love Fords designs.   My favorite is the 1934  3 window coupe.    I personally have a  38 - 46s coupe.  I like coupes.   I just bought a 1935  - 58.  It is called a “Vicky”.    So I am very into the changes Buick was trying and suceeding with.   If you would like to bend an ear with MHO,   Its. Oldbuickjim@gmail.com

[John_S_in_Penna]

41 minutes ago, JohnD1956 said:

I'm pretty certain no one who manufactured that car ever thought it would be on the highway for 1-3 hours at a time.  And even local use was probably not that extensive or intensive, except probably in the Rockies out west.  

 

Accounts from people with long experience are

useful:  I think you'll find that cars were used far more

than believed.

 

I know a man, now an active 98, who bought a 1918 Cadillac

touring car in 1939 and used it as his DAILY DRIVER for several years

before World War II.  The car naturally had only 2-wheel brakes.

He drove it up and down the eastern seaboard

in all sorts of weather, typically at the then-current

highway speed of 50 m.p.h.  He even had the speed up to

an indicated 75 m.p.h., which, he says, was probably an actual

65 to 70.  I was happy to print his interesting account in our

AACA regional newsletter.  He still owns and drives the car.

 

 

Edited August 17, 2018 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[JohnD1956]

I would like to read that account.  How about posting it here?

 

But I still think that in 1935 the thought of a car driving on a highway at 60-75 MPH for 3 hours was close to 15 years away.   If that thought even occurred to someone they probably thought it would be a lonely trip.  More likely, maybe, would be a  Rt 66 style, with lots of room to stop and ways to avoid collisions.  Hardly the conditions we live with today. 

 

With all my cars I try to maintain a car length per 10 MPH speed distance.  However that only encourages todays drivers to cut in front of you and/or to get pissed off and to pass (even in unsafe or illegal situations) with the obligatory cut in front of you with inches to spare.  Regularly I witness people who never brake when someone tries to pull out of a side road in front of them,  and some of those even appear to hit the throttle, as if to challenge the errant driver who dared to pull out on their section of road.  This is not to mention the current seemingly acceptable habit of moving out from a side road immediately before or during your vehicle's participation in the intersection.  

 

Hence my question about how the OP intends to use his car.

[Grimy]

22 minutes ago, JohnD1956 said:

Regularly I witness people who never brake when someone tries to pull out of a side road in front of them,  and some of those even appear to hit the throttle, as if to challenge the errant driver who dared to pull out on their section of road.  This is not to mention the current seemingly acceptable habit of moving out from a side road immediately before or during your vehicle's participation in the intersection.  

Amen!  Here in NorCal young females, especially, consider stop signs only as a suggestion which may be freely ignored.  And stop signs are definitely ignored if they adjudge your vehicle as one that they'd prefer to NOT be behind.  That happened twice to me last month towing a large trailer within 1.5 miles before entering the Interstate.

 

A few years ago some twit blew a stop sign and pulled out in front of my 1925 Pierce (great brakes for the era) and we wound up side by side at a traffic light a long block away.  The offending driver looked at me with a guilty face, and I said, "You seem to have much more confidence in 90-year-old brakes than I do."  He said nothing but was gone in a flash when the light changed.

 

That said (and I've had this conversation with Jim), I'm leaving stock brakes on all my cars despite driving them a LOT, even the 2-wheel brakes on two of my cars.

[Jim Nelson]

Well, I live in a very busy part of Florida.  The Tampa / St. Pete area has around 2 million idiots in it.   Just to drive  ? back roads ?  means you need to keep it around 45 mph for around 6 blocks and then you stop and start it again.   That said, you can not drive that way.   The roads here point you to the 4 thru 6  lane roads to get any where.   I will definitly have over drive.    That way I can drive it and keep close to the NORMAL traffic speeds.   Having the vacuum boost mechanical brakes will be very interesting.   I will test and see how effective they are.    I'm told that if I have them 'tuned' up, they are quite effective.   I just sold a very nice 1937 Business Man's Coupe.   It had 1-3/4" wide brakes.   Once I was getting;ng ready to turn left in a turn lane and the guy in front decided to stop short.   I had to climb on the brakes and I was not happy as they seemed to fade during the last of the stop.   Had he did it sooner, I might have either had to dodge him or get stopped.   I have a '38- 46s'  that I modified the brakes.    As you know, most of the braking effort is done by the front brakes.   My coupe is a Special with the 1- 3/4" shoe.   The Century has 2" wide brakes.   So I got the front brakes - drums, shoes etc.  and set up the front brakes with them.   Now, that mod is not seen anyway.   You would not know the mod was there.   But I know have about 14% greater braking with my mod.   The rear brakes remain the original 1-3/4" shoes.   No change there.   I can now get on the brakes if I need to and feel more comfortable stopping.    Now, as I have stated, we are full of regular idiots done here.   You know, the place old people come to die.  "T" bone accidents are common.   The old folks just are slow reaction to the increasing traffic we have each year.   Around 1000 people move here every day - - - -.    Then the tourists come for the weather.   They are lost most of the time.   Now you get the picture of the traffic.   The other mod to my braking system on my '38' is - - dual master cylinder system.   It is really easy on the Buicks systems.  The rear brakes are on one system via the single brake line from the splitting  block.  That line goes over the torque tube on it  way to the pumpkin where it splits to each wheel.  The front has two lines separate teach wheel.  Those are joined just after the dual Master Cylinder.   I had to install the line pressure units to keep some pressure on the lines.   The orininal  system keeps pressure on your brake system if you did not know..    So If I have a brake failure, at least one system will slow down my car before I hit them or the post or ditch  - - -    :-)))   IF you want to drive your Buick , and I do, it is a mandator change for me to have.  I drove from the Tampa area to the Nashville Tn. area two years ago.   A 1600 mile round trip and did not have a problem.   Felt safe while traveling rear back roads and Inter State at 65 / 70 mph.  Yes I have over drive in that car.   With OD, I drive 65 mph and the engine turns only 2350 rpm.    Nice and easy cruise for the long drives.   Our Buick Club has get togethers where I need to drive usually two days to get there.   My Buick can handle it easily because I set it up that way.     This is a snap shot of how I drive my car.    With my new acquisition which is the '35' vicky,  I will get it set up to at least handle long trips.  Over drive is a must.   Glen took over Lloyd Youngs  over drive modifications if you want one.   The cost is reasonable.  I've done the 'change of the third member' but that proved more expensive.   Be sides, the over drive lets you drive with the original 3 speed until you get around 38 mph and then you switch on the OD and off you go with good speed and lower fuel consumption.   Pix and details on my installation are available.    Buick said the car was capable for that kind of travel and I believe it.   Details if you want them.    Hows that for a short,  how I drive my great ole '38' coupe.

[Jim Nelson]

John D,    I can do most anything I need to.  I've built three airplanes (two pax) and flew 23 + years - helicopters for the Army.  Not much buffalo's me   I was raised that "if you can do , I should be able to.  So, since I live in a very warm ? part  of the country,  you need A/C in your vehicle to survive the summers.   Our Tech guy for our club has A/C in his '38' coupe .   Thus, if he can do it, so can I.   I used many pix of how he did it, and with a few changes,   I also now have A/C in my old Buick.   Again,  if you really want to drive and enjoy your great old car from the '30's,  you do what you need to to enjoy.   Its fun to show your car to the younger  folks and show them how much modern cars have made life easier and more comfortable.   But you still can drive with the group and and turn heads as you keep up with them.   Yes,  I know,  its not original.  But I just can not keep my Buick in the garage for 6 months while the weather cools down.   For local driving and long trips up north where it is a bit cooler,   I can drive and enjoy.    

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

GO FOR IT, Jim

 

  Ben

[Guest]

I don't believe that the type of actuation of brakes has nearly as much effect on braking as does the rubber to road contact.  I have driven my Pontiac for more than 500+ miles in a day with stops only for food and fuel.  I drive 50 on a regular road and 55+ on our trans Canada highway or on your interstates.  Never have had a problem in 400,000 miles over 59 years.

I don't think I would try to re-engineer what the General has done.  

[Jim Nelson]

Hi Tinindian,   (Like the ID )  Thanks for the info.   This is my first forea into mechanical brakes.  So, I have been filling my poor old (75  year and climbing) to understand what and how those braking systems functioned.     Interesting, the 1935 Buick has a vacuum powered machanical brakes.   I find that quite interesting.   I usually try to educate myself on a new (to me ) system.   That way,  I can always take a different path to solve an issue.   I must have a good braking system living where I am.   If its not adequate, then my next step is to do like the manufacturers did and went to hydraulics.   That becomes the option if I need to go there.  I try to look before I jump.   Open roads are not an issue.  I live with 2 million idiots here in Tampa Fl. area so brakeing is first on my list of enjoying my ole 35 Buick Vicky.    Model 35 - 58.      Around here, 50 mph will get you run over serious like.  45 mph gets you out of the subdivision but after that, you better be able to go 60.  

I am going to install over drive as that solves a bunch.   I have a  38-46s as my primary road car.  That lets me go 65 mph and only turn 2350 rpm.   Great on the engine and is much better on fuel.  I do that all day.   I took my ‘38’ w/ OD and did a 1600 mile trip no sweat .   OD made all the difference.   Lloyd Young passed back in Jan.  but his machinist is carring on.  So all is not lost.   So my  ‘35’ Vicky will get the same treatment as my ‘38’ coupe and allow the new (to me) car to have an easy life.   My personal limit is never run over 3000 rpm.   Except in an emergency -??   The old straight 8’s  don’t tollerate higher rpm’s.   So I set the car up to run around 2500 to 2600 rpm for cruseing.   JMHO.   

[Beemon]

What General Motors thought was acceptable in the 1930s is not acceptable now. It's interesting to read comments about how the "engineers knew what they were doing". It's true, they could be great systems engineered for THEIR TIME but not to modern standards. Thus, it's easy to say 80 years ago they knew what they were doing, but as technology advanced for the better of things, they really didn't know it all. 

[Bloo]

But you are still limited mainly by the tires, just like when the car was new.

 

Has anyone driven this car enough to know what it's limitations actually are?

[Jim Nelson]

Hi Bloo,   The tire companies have made amazing progress.  The compounds today are far - far superior to anything before WW II.   Tread design combined with the compounds let us decide what we want our cars to function like.    Hard compounds (400+ ratings per the gov.) give you long life but they are not as “sticky”  as ratings in the 200 to 300 range.   Consider what the tire companies create for racing.   Road racing has different requiremants -  slick’s vs soft compound with grooves.  Things are very different from when I did some class C  road racing.   As the saying goes - “lays your money down and takes yoir chances”.    I prefer the gov. rating on tires that are. A-A  with a 300 or less.    Directional tread also helps you a bunch down here in the south with rain being the issue.   I grew up in snow country so a more agressive tread helped in the snow.   So, that gets back to the mechanics of brake design,  disc  vs drum etc.  The open weave ‘soft’ braking material used for our older brakes is good but not good when wet.   Do you remember the ole trick that you applied your brakes lightly when going thru deep water.  Other wise, you had no stopping power untill you warmed them enough to dry the brakes.  Also, consider radial ply vs bias ply.   So I run modern radial ply,  tubeless tires on my ‘38-46s’ after having a serious front wheel  tire. (tube type) failure.    

[Jim Nelson]

Hi Boo,        When I get my car,  I will take it around the neighborhood a bunch to get familiar with the brakes and how it handles.    My Restoration shop, who helps me with mechanical things now as I get to old to do the heavy stuff, will work with me to see how bad the  brackets and bushings are.   They say, the brakes are pretty good  IF  the bushings and brackets are tight.   NO slop so the system may be reasonably good.     Its a 15 mile trip thru city streets, so I can get there on roads that let me drive around 35 mph.   That should be fun.     

[billorn]

How are you going to keep the original backing plates and drums or are you going to replace those with something modern? Fabricate? Do you think you will have problems with wheels fitting if you change backing plates and drums? Will they fit the original axle shafts? Is the axle tube strong enough for different brakes? Every time I try to do something to change a car for the better, there are 20 problems waiting for me that make it worse. You can probably lump me in with the guys who dont think that hydralic brakes are really going to do much to make your braking better. If the mechancial brakes still lock up the wheels then hydralic brakes may not be any better and wont do much to help you stop faster. What advantage does hydralic offer over mechanical besides maybe more force but if the mechanical brakes stop the car and lock up the wheels is there really an improvement there? 

 

It sounds like you already made up your mind so you can disregard if you want. Im just thinking out loud but it seems like a lot of work and money for maybe not a big payoff. Mechanical brakes arent worse if they are adjusted right. Its not like the disk vs drum arguement which sometimes makes some sense.

[Jim Nelson]

Hi Bill,    I am just looking at all the options.    I was talking with my main mechanic at my resto shop.   His comments were,  test the brakes for uneven application.   He says that  most machanical brakes start to wear out on all the bushings etc.   they find that if there is any sloppy bushings, you can not adjust the uneven application of each brake..   So, when I get it home (not here yet ). I will drive it carefully to the shop and we will do a thourough check oit of all the pivoting points and assoted bearings to see what needs to be done.   I always provide alternative solutions tp our old cars problems.    In my world, brakes are the first and most important issue.   Then steering and so on.    I found a good fuel tank (I hope) and it is needed to get the fuel system back to normal..   I like the smaller bodied cars and the engine forward looks of the 30’s cars.   Its my insanity and I’m sticking to it.....

[KongaMan]

If the car doesn't fit your needs or standards, at some point the prudent course is to buy a different car.

[Jim Nelson]

Well, KongaMan,    We are all infected with old car disease.   I really like the Buick 50 series design.   Ford's in the 34 / 35 area are also very fine design.    But being a technical guy,   I go for the Buick system over Ford.    The body design matched with the drive train did reasonable.    The 1930 to 1935 drive train was, at best, wanting.   The 35-58 Vicky series 40  drive train was the design to come.    The  other older systems were unusual to say the least.   So, I choose to upgrade the 50 series.   I will post my 'adjustments' to the 50 series to make it a better driving,  running car.    I have a 38-46s coupe that I have made into a very nice traveling car.    Engine upgrade to the 263 of  the 50 /54 years.   Brought it up to new factory specs.  Rebuilt the tranny to new,  replaced all the wheel bearings, new shocks all around,  so it looks like new.   If you know about brakes,  you know that the front brakes get the most abuse.   So I installed 60 series front (only) brakes.     Front became 2" and the rear remained the stock 1-3/4" size.   A big difference that you can tell.      I live in Florida  and for an old guy, the heat and humidity are becoming tough.  So my concession to that is -  I installed air conditioning.   It minimizes the sweating.   I also installed over drive that GM failed to get.   I now can keep up with the normal ?  traffic that goes from 50 to 70 on our roads in the Tampa Fl area.   The dang tourists drive lost almost all the time.   They are very dangerous.     So braking and keeping speeds are very important if you want to drive your  very nice car.  That is why I own one of these very nice cars.

[KongaMan]

20 minutes ago, Jim Nelson said:

I have a 38-46s coupe that I have made into a very nice traveling car.    Engine upgrade to the 263 of  the 50 /54 years.  ... If you know about brakes,  you know that the front brakes get the most abuse.   So I installed 60 series front (only) brakes.    I also installed over drive that GM failed to get.

 

Case in point: you shoulda just bought a 66s, then you wouldn't have had to do any of that.  

[Jim Nelson]

Try to find one !    Its a very nice car but far fewer available.   So, I went for a more available model.     This was my first Buick and I learned a lot and found many froends who educated me.  Joined a small Buick club that is more personal than the big national club.  

[Jim Nelson]

PLEASE READ. FRAUD ALERT:   John Fishbourne on this forum is a fraud,  Ran a check on him and his address and phone.   ALL BOGUS.   Would not do  pix of what he represented.  All bogus.  My lawyer found him interesting with the check.

[Jim Nelson]

Who has pulled axels from the third member of a 1934 /35  - 50 series car ?  I need to find out how to pull the axels.   The 1936  third member axel removal is easy.  

[Jim Nelson]

And time continues.   My 35-58 Vicky is home on jack stands.   I got the original fuel tank when I got my “Vicky”.    It was a leaking sive. A new built tank is expensive.   I explored a company called “ReNu”.    They restore old gas tanks that don’t hold gas.   I loaded up the old tank and drove around 100 miles to his shop.   He explained what they did and what I can expect.   I ‘“put hands on”  a tank he had ReNu’d for a Hudson he was working on.   A calibrated eye on what tooling he had and used told me this seems to be a good repair station.   I got it back in a week.   It was less expensive than a new tank.   PLUS it fits like an original - cause it is.   I replaced the level indicator with a modern combo unit.   Gas out and level indicator.  The old system was strange design.   I got a 1939 - 1954  unit.   I needed to modify some of the holes etc.  I then put the ‘new’ gas tank back in the car.   I needed to replace most of the cobbled up fuel line from the tank forward midway to the engine.    Caught a cold - first in 3 or 4 years.   On hold - -

[60FlatTop]

Brakes are a well beaten topic. For some, whatever is on the car is not good enough. If you have hydraulic brakes the next guy says you need a dual master cylinder.

 

The risk of an accident caused by well maintained factory designed brakes and good driver is pretty low. I bet the risk is about as low as the risk of just getting into an accident period.

 

Given the, pretty much, equal risks, I get thinking about those TV ambulance chasers with the single number phone numbers. They are specialists at personal injury claims. Can you imagine them coming across that odd unavoidable accident where they find their client was involved with an owner modified braking system? I haven't read about it happening, but I will stick with my well maintained factory engineered equipment.

 

If the state tells me to modify my brake system I will just ask for documentation of the Senator's specific instructions.

 

I can see the court case on the evolution of brakes. And Spencer Tracy wouldn't be around to take my side. No thanks.

Bernie

[Jim Nelson]

Hi Bernie,   Interesting comments on brake system.   Unfortunatly I live in an area that is where survival  is difficult.   1st.  Over a million normal (?)  drivers,     2nd.   I live in the south which gets a tourist influx that adds at least 20 to 30%  more drivers from Nov.  to. Easter every year.  That influx has increased every year.     3rd.   The additional drivers (most of them)  do not experience the high volume of cars each day driving over roads that are 6 to 8 lanes.   Plus they are disorientad and do not know “exactly” where theybare going.   Its called prior planning on how they will get there.   4th.  We have the ocean / Gulf that funnels the massive flow and provides a destination.   Parking sucks as big money bought up all the little guys and gives us high rise condo’s so you have a difficult time even the water.    5th.   We have a great numbers of accidents known as “T - bone”.   Drivers who literly run lights in the confusion of their travels.   Then throw in normal (?) ‘I didn’t see him excuses of normal traffic accidents.    Now as we drive and try to keep from getting creamed,  our old designed for traffic at the time - neet cars,  it gets hard.   My 37 Buick with the smallest brakes sold become very  -  problematic.   I give my self plenty of space BUT the guy in front of you may not be as quick as you as you plan your stop.   My last issue put me in a position to use all the braking I could muster.   Come in brake fade - - .   So my first Buick has had the front brakes up graded to Century level.   That gives me 14% better brakeing.    If you are lucky enough and have a  39 or 40 or newer,  you can install front disc brakes.    Plus, having a dual master cyl. to split the braking incase of one system failure.    I’m old enough to remember the accidents where you met the steering shaft in a very uncomfortable way.   No seat belts, running lights for evening driving.   Air bags etc all the nice survivability equipment in todays cars we take for granted.    When I buy a pre-war car it gets trucked to a very close lot where I carefully drive it home and into my garage.   It doesn’t come out untill seat belts are in place.   Enough said for us drivers of our  very nice older cars.   My cars are not dust gathers, I drive them.     My last long drive was approx 1600 miles from Tampa Fl. to Murphfrreboro Tn.  Over a week for a club get together.   No dust in my garage - -    My latest car  (and last one) is a ‘1935 Vicky.   Last of the mechanical brake cars for Buick.  Needless to say, I will eventually put hydraulic dual system in place so I can survive to a rip old age.        Of course, its just my humble opinion,     “Put your money down and takes you chances”  as an old friend reminds me.

[billorn]

I guess that explains all those dead guys in Model As and Ts.

 

Oh, wait...

[Frank DuVal]

Yep, and up grading brakes to 8 wheel discs with quapdruple systems will still not stop a T-Bone accident with you as the bone! 

 

I have had dual master systems fail, compete failures! Put brake maintenance at the top of the to do list.

 

You need better old car routes. Might involve moving to a more friendly area.?

[Beemon]

3 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

I have had dual master systems fail, compete failures! Put brake maintenance at the top of the to do list.

 

Who would have thought the fabled dual master cylinder leaves you with zero brakes if one line pops? (AKA also happened to me)

 

Personally for me, I go with the flow of traffic and people give me lots of space. I wouldn't want to hit a classic car and be sued for a ton of money!

[60FlatTop]

5 hours ago, Beemon said:

I go with the flow of traffic and people give me lots of space.

I drive a Buick. Once my Wife asked me how fast I was going in a car that had a broken speedometer. I said "Oh, just going with the flow." She said "Well! The flow is all way back there."

 

Jim, In your first entry, I thought you lived in a country like Australia where there was a requirement. I was surprised. You live in the US where people are required to ride bicycles with their back to the traffic.

 

My thoughts on modified brake system legal risks remain unchanged. My Grandfather used to say "Don't flirt with a rattlesnake."

 

Bernie

[Jim Nelson]

Whoa - - - a total failure with a brake system that is supposed to have separate braking in case of a failure.   Tell me / us what happened.   It makes no sense.  The only common area was the reservoir and it has a separating wall to keep fluid separate if one system goes crap.    I'm very curious to the failure mode.  

[Jim Nelson]

Hey,  Billorn,  That was cute !!

[Beemon]

3 hours ago, Jim Nelson said:

Whoa - - - a total failure with a brake system that is supposed to have separate braking in case of a failure.   Tell me / us what happened.   It makes no sense.  The only common area was the reservoir and it has a separating wall to keep fluid separate if one system goes crap.    I'm very curious to the failure mode.  

 

To make a long story short, you need fluid in both sections for a dual master cylinder to work. You cannot compress air. Its a common misconception to think a dual master cylinder has separate braking - that's only possible with two separate master cylinders.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Beemon (see edit history)

[Jim Nelson]

Hmmm, that was an exciiting experience.   Do you recall how the fluid got out of the reservoir ?   Very strange     

[Beemon]

 

All I had left was the parking brake. Those guys touting safety are the same guys that want you to buy their product.

[billorn]

I didnt mean to sound mean but I dont understand how re engineering the brake system will make it safer. If the mechanical brakes already stop the wheels from rotating hydralics wont do it any better. Force is force it doesnt matter if its is a cable or a rod or fluid that applies it. Plus if your worried about brake fade thats something that happens on hydralic brakes not mechanical because the fluid gets hot and boils. I suppose mechanical brakes can fade but you would really have to be abusing them to make it happen. I sort of get the idea of adding discs to improve stopping in some areas but changing the entire way that the force is applied without changing the AMOUNT of force that is applied at the pavement doesnt seem like an improvement to me. Just a different way to get the same result. I was driving a friends 37 Ford in Hershey last week and every time I stepped on the brakes they were smooth and strong. Yep mechanical. He didnt go with the hype of everyone switching they're Fords to juice brakes. I honestly could not tell the difference. Pedal was strong brakes didnt pull car stopped easily and without any excitement. I would not have worried in an emergency because Im sure it would have locked up all four wheels. That says their's enough force going to the brakes already.

 

I also think 60FlatTop makes a good point about legal issues. Your worried about crashing in traffic and believe that it is common and that it will happen sooner or later because everyone else is stupid. I have to ask what will happen to you when you're insurance company discovers you have a homemade brake system? What if that system fails like Beemon? I have never seen mechanical brakes have a total failure like that but it obviously happens with hydralics. Easy for insurance to deny coverage if you did it yourself. I think good insurance is alot more important than hydralic brakes.

 

This just seems alot like re inventing the wheel. Your car your choice but I think you will spend thousands of dollars and how many hours of your time to change something and when your done it will have no real affect on how you're car works and stops and drives. Disc brakes I get but this just seems like flushing money and time that could be better spent somewhere else like makeing sure your steering and suspension is 100% or excellent tires or wheels that are true or better lighting or seat belts which will all make the car safer than this brake "upgrade." I think it is alot more work than you think to make the change. You will need an entire hydralic system from another car and some how make it fit your Buick which didnt have those brakes to begin with. Its more than just running lines and installing a master cylinder. I do not believe you can convert your mechanical brakes to hydralic just by adding a wheel cylinder inside the drum instead of the mechanical device. It is probly a very big job.

 

No more thoughts from me. Good luck with whatever path you choose and have fun with your car!!!

[Jim Nelson]

Well this task is a lot easier than you think.   First, ‘35’ was the last year  for mechanicals.   Keeping them ballanced was ALWAYS a problem.  That is why all cars went to hydraulics.   Second,  I am only working with prewar series 40 and series 50 Buicks.  1936 was the first year Buick had hydraulics.   So its not re-engineering here.  Just a continuing the improvement that Buick engineers were doing.   Hydraulic’s were a simplification of how to stop your car reliably. and straight.     New pre fitted lines are a phone call away.   Flex lines are on the shelf.   Its some what like comparing  1955 Buicks to 2018 Buicks with things like dual braking systems, anti-lock system, air bags , seat belts with shoulder harnes.    I’m just moving the old system off to the side and replacing them with new and easier to work with systems.   The mod’s  I am doing are things that are invisable or unrecognisable to the average person.   My cars are not museum pieces.   For those who want that, please enjoy them as mine don’t gather dust and are found on the road.   I find that it brings a alot of enjoyment and questions about our old cars.