thoughts on seat belts

[michealbernal]

What are the thoughts out there about installing seat belts in pre war cars?  I recently purchased a 1928 standard four door sedan.  It is a beautiful car.  I am considering installing seat belts in it.  Does this affect judging at all?  Has anyone else done this and if so where/how did you anchor them?  I am considering doing this for safety reasons but I don't want to cause damage to or destroy a piece of history in the process.  We live in the San Francisco bay area and some of the drivers out here are insane.  Any thoughts appreciated  

[Mark Shaw]

From the BCA judging manual:

Safety Items: Each car may have non-original items installed for safety purposes, such as, seat belts, turn signals, and stop lights.  Each car is required to have a U/L approved fire extinguisher and safety glass, unless the car is an unrestored original, per BCA rules. 

 

I have been disappointed that my grandchildren are not allowed to participate in car tours in my original prewar Buicks without seat belts.  My 38 Buick does have them because they were installed by the previous owner.  However, my older Buicks have wood floors, so seat belt anchors cannot easily be installed.  I suggest that you can install U bolts around frame members to serve as anchors.  However, anchoring in the center of the vehicle is usually the issue unless there is a convenient cross member in just the right place.  Just stay away from the freeways whenever you can to minimize exposure to the crazy fast drivers.

Good luck,

[Matt Harwood]

My wife and I have had the seat belt discussion several times, as we have two young sons who have been touring with us since they were 1 and 4. Our 1929 Cadillac was our primary tour car for many years and we thought about seat belts, but there are several problems with a car of that vintage. Fortunately, they won't have any affect on value or judging or anything like that, but making belts safe and effective is easier said than done.

 

As Mark says, there's only a wood frame for structure, and screws or bolts into the wood just aren't going to hold anything in an accident where the forces are just astronomical. We considered bolting them to the frame somehow, but you have to realize that there are only 8 or 10 bolts holding the body to the frame. If you're in an accident and they give way, and you're belted into the body while the belts are attached to the frame... well, I'll let you imagine what happens. If we get hit in that 1929 Cadillac, it's going to blow into a zillion pieces and there's not much we can do about it. 

 

As a result, we decided that installing seat belts in a car of that vintage was a placebo at best and perhaps dangerous if things went wrong and the kids were trapped inside a car that could also catch fire pretty easily. Our policy is to drive cautiously and pay attention and hope for the best. I know it isn't a guarantee of anything, but the belts posed more problems than they solved (although they might have been nice to keep the younger one in his seat--he liked to walk around in the back of the Cadillac when he was little). 

 

Drive defensively, don't do anything foolish, expect others to be stupid around you, plan for the light ahead of you to turn red, look for your escape routes, and always pay attention. Those are your best tools for staying safe.

[trimacar]

Matt, I mostly agree with you, and there have been several discussions about adding seat belts to cars.  One automotive engineer pointed out that a seat belt is not a stand alone accessory, the car has to be designed to accommodate not only anchor points but many other safety factors.  For example, most old car seat cushions just lay in place, and are not bolted nor fastened to anything.  The force of a seat coming loose with one strapped in a seat belt is also a grisly visual.

 

I think the only real advantage to having a seat belt in an old car is to keep you in place, and in the case of a driver, more or less in the control position, in minor wrecks.  Being ejected from a car usually leads to very serious injuries.

 

On a side note, I had a friend come to me with some seat belts he wanted to modify to fit his car.  He wanted me to cut them to a specific length and re-sew.  I refused.  In today's society, if you modify belts, or for that matter install them in your car and later sell the car, then any injury related to that piece of equipment becomes your liability.  I would not want to be in court and be asked what certificates I had that qualified me to modify a seat belt.

[alsancle]

On 8/10/2018 at 12:20 AM, Matt Harwood said:

As a result, we decided that installing seat belts in a car of that vintage was a placebo at best and perhaps dangerous if things went wrong and the kids were trapped inside a car that could also catch fire pretty easily. Our policy is to drive cautiously and pay attention and hope for the best. I know it isn't a guarantee of anything, but the belts posed more problems than they solved (although they might have been nice to keep the younger one in his seat--he liked to walk around in the back of the Cadillac when he was little).

 

The seatbelt thing comes up once a year.   Matt, your use of the world "placebo" may be the best explanation of what is really happening that I have seen.   I would guess the average person doesn't get the engineering involved in making the seatbelt a net plus vs a wash vs a net minus in the event of an accident.   On steel bodied cars you are probably over on the plus side depending on the installation,  but I'm willing to bet on the wood framed cars you at zero or minus.

[Spinneyhill]

Lap belts will keep you in the car, probably, but the facial injuries will be horrific. Your face will hit the dash or windscreen or steering wheel in almost any front end collision. Back seat faces will smash into the back of the front seat, at best. Hopefully your knees etc. will not be smashed up from flying forward knees first, if you have the belt done up tight enough.

[Brian_Heil]

I went through this discussion with myself on my 1923 and we toured with our three daughters for years.

 

I did install 5 lap belts.  I ran an angle iron 1" x 1" from one side of the body to the other to each thick sill wood.  The bottom seat cushions still fit fine.  Through the thickest part of the body sill rail I ran a single grade 8 fastener and on the bottom of this rail a very large and thick backing plate half the size of a shoe box lid.  The belt anchors bolt to the 1x1 angle iron.

 

Is it perfect?  No.  But you don't want to be attached to the frame as noted above.  I tell myself I did as good a job as I could and it is far better than no belt.

 

Personally, I don't feel comfortable without a belt on. I have belts in all my older cars from the 50s and 60s too.

[Hubert_25-25]

Very rarely do you see a photo of a vintage car after an accident.  This is a 1926 Buick Standard 2 door in the photo.  I don't now how the top section separated behind the seat, but it did.  A pretty high quality photo for it's day.  It might have been used for an insurance adjustment.  I saved this picture because there are some period details in the photo that we rarely see.  There is a stack of demountable rims next to the car, so a pretty early photo.   

Edited August 15, 2018 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

[Grimy]

A few years ago, a good friend and his wife were at the rear of a HCCA convoy in their early brass T touring when they were rear-ended, in broad daylight, by a semi.  Miraculously, they both survived--but only because the wood front seatback broke and they went on their backs on the rear floor--thus avoiding being decapitated by the barbed wire ag fence the car went through at a high rate of speed.  They are both OK today.  The remains of the T were given to another friend, who has re-restored the car. I've seen photos but don't have any myself.

 

In my fleet, I have seatbelts only in the steel-bodied Jeepster, and am fully cognizant of the risks in operating vehicles with wood-framed bodies.

[27donb]

On 8/15/2018 at 5:50 PM, Hubert_25-25 said:

Very rarely do you see a photo of a vintage car after an accident.  This is a 1926 Buick Standard 2 door in the photo.  I don't now how the top section separated behind the seat, but it did.  A pretty high quality photo for it's day.  It might have been used for an insurance adjustment.  I saved this picture because there are some period details in the photo that we rarely see.  There is a stack of demountable rims next to the car, so a pretty early photo.   

 

Not trying to be morbid by posting the following, but I think we could all agree, these old cars weren't designed with many features to allow the car to survive a crash, let alone the passengers.  It's one of the evolutions of today, that we can be thankful for.

 

Today's traffic and today's cars exceed what cars of the 30's and earlier were safely capable of.  Trying to drive our cars at highway speeds is not advised, in my opinion.  If you get them to go that fast and not damage anything, you'll never be able to stop as fast as the rest of the traffic can.  If you upgrade the engine, brakes, wheels and tires, you'll still have a wood framed body and all the hazards already expressed in this thread.

 

Slow, calm, quiet, back roads driving is where you will find me and my Buick most often.  And always driving as defensively as possible, especially when others are around on the road.

 

 

 

 

[michealbernal]

Thanks to all who responded.  I have no intention of driving my car on the freeway.  We live in the out in the country on a large ranch off a two lane country road that is very twisty.  That does not prevent the WAZE app. from sending huge volumes of commute traffic down our streets.  Some of the people drive our 35 mph zoned street at 65/70 mph, passing over the double yellow line  and driving on the wrong side of the roadway.  Traffic in the San Francisco bay area is truly a nightmare.  I don't even drive my modern car on our street during commute hours.  Be all of that as it may I am going to put seat belts in the car and I sincerely appreciate the ideas on how to accomplish this.  Thanks all

[Guest]

Michael, I believe you're making the correct choice with your decision to install the seat belts in your vintage car.

While one can argue that in extreme or unusual circumstances they may be a detriment, the same could be said for almost any safety equipment including the modern day air bags. But when you consider the odds, logic and common sense dictate that airbags have saved more lives than they have cost. The same goes for seat belts in just about any era car.

Ford engineers spent a considerable amount of time and capital (as well as a Ford funded grant to Cornell University) for crash/injury studies back in the late 40's and early 50's, which finally lead to the development of Ford's Lifeguard Safety System introduced in 1956. This included padded dashboards, deep dish steering wheels, safety rear view mirrors, of course seat belts and the most revolutionary part of the system was the two way safety door latch. Their findings showed that most people were killed or seriously injured when ejected from the cars during an accident due to poor design of the industry standard door latches, which hadn't changed substantially in a few decades.

If one had to surmise, would it be safe to say that most accidents in the 20's, 30' & 40's were probably at speeds much lower than 50 mph? Probably so. However, rollovers look to be pretty common with the result of ejecting those passengers in almost every case. While you cannot easily change the door latches of the era, you could certainly add those seat belts and accordingly prevent any chance of ejection at a lower speed collision.

While I have no data on how many car bodies were ripped completely off their frames during collisions in those early decades, the photos posted by 27donb show that even in some of these extreme looking accidents the car bodies all appear to have stayed connected to their frames. Interestingly the seats also seem to have remained attached in almost every incident as well. I think these photos have convinced me that seat belts in most of those situations shown could have saved a life.

As far as the wooden floored cars go, I believe Brian Heil addressed the issue best above. The addition of some structural reinforcement seems like an easy and logical update.

Like you Michael, I seldom see vintage cars on a freeway where I suppose extreme speeds could result in car bodies being ripped entirely off their frames or complete seats tearing loose and travelling through occupants who are belted in place, however I'd be more concerned about the more likely possibility of a traffic accident in the city at 35 mph. I'd just like to keep my family safely inside that car until it comes to rest.

 

[Morgan Wright]

I appreciate all the talk about seatbelts, but I wonder what people think about air bags. I'm thinking of installing air bags in my 1917 Buick E-49. Ideas?

[27donb]

1 hour ago, Morgan Wright said:

I appreciate all the talk about seatbelts, but I wonder what people think about air bags. I'm thinking of installing air bags in my 1917 Buick E-49. Ideas?

 

Don't forget installing a computer too to control when the airbag deploys, just like on a modern car. 

 

And make sure the airbag is one big one that completely envelops you, so in case of an accident you can roll out of harms way like a beach ball!  ;D 

[Spinneyhill]

8 hours ago, 27donb said:

one big one that completely envelops you

Wasn't there a stupid sci-fi movie a few years ago where Sylvester Stallone was an old fashioned cop in a future world and the cop car filled with setting foam in an instant, instead of an air bag? He had to hack his way out of it, with typical wry comment of course.

[ROD W]

On 8/25/2018 at 8:19 PM, Morgan Wright said:

I appreciate all the talk about seatbelts, but I wonder what people think about air bags. I'm thinking of installing air bags in my 1917 Buick E-49. Ideas?

This might work

[32buick67]

On 8/18/2018 at 8:43 AM, 27donb said:

 

Not trying to be morbid by posting the following, but I think we could all agree, these old cars weren't designed with many features to allow the car to survive a crash, let alone the passengers.  It's one of the evolutions of today, that we can be thankful for.

 

Today's traffic and today's cars exceed what cars of the 30's and earlier were safely capable of.  Trying to drive our cars at highway speeds is not advised, in my opinion.  If you get them to go that fast and not damage anything, you'll never be able to stop as fast as the rest of the traffic can.  If you upgrade the engine, brakes, wheels and tires, you'll still have a wood framed body and all the hazards already expressed in this thread.

 

Slow, calm, quiet, back roads driving is where you will find me and my Buick most often.  And always driving as defensively as possible, especially when others are around on the road.

 

 

 

 

Old post, but maybe quite relevant based on the last couple of years of heightened emphasis on the preciousness and value of life as we try to learn and thrive into future generations...

I too thought about improving the safety in our 1932 Buick with seat belts, air bags and other improvements available in the last 90years. 

The health and security of my wife and kids are my #1 priorities, which makes me reflect on how vintage lower speed vehicles like ours can participate in a modern motoring world.

I got lap seat belts in my 1950 Ford to keep passengers secure from jostling, but what about neck injuries from whiplash, and what about body shear from a front collision >50mph?

Its still not good enough for all cases to ensure the car can be driven freely and for most situations.

 

Some drive on country roads to avoid dangerous higher-speed competition, some drive only in parades when the situation is very controlled, some tootle in the neighborhood at 30mph, some tour with a gaggle of other like-enabled vehicles in a crowd such as my Harley friends to bolster attention and safety from other motorists.

 

I don't know what the answer is for maximizing safety for your and others, but I am learning that this life is really really short, and I would encourage all to apply the safety measures you think will help on the fun journey you embark, and its always important to be sure to know where you are going to end up at the end of that journey.

 

...from a guy who is now driving for the first time ever with mechanical brakes in a car, wow, mechanical breaks are really cool!

[Morgan Wright]

You'll never catch me on a major road with my car. Back roads only. And you won't see me in those tours with 1930's and 40's cars going 40 MPH for 30 miles, either. Glidden is out too, I'm here to preserve the car, not wear it out. Strictly trailer queen for me.

[Lawrence Helfand]

The issue with vintage cars is not a single component is designed for a crash. Seat belts dont mean a whole lot in a head on collision. The impact drives the non collapsible steering column into the drivers torso and the engine and transmission are pushed into the passenger compartment having broken free of the frame mounts and non locking seatbacks in two doors fly forward driving occupants into the compressing steel and glass. I have seen a few crash photos of my own car a 41 Buick Century sedanete and indeed in one the body was partially ripped from frame and the half ton of drivetrain was in the front seat. The amazing thing was the driver was sitting on the curb a bedraggled DWI  

Edited December 20, 2021 by Lawrence Helfand (see edit history)

[alsancle]

18 minutes ago, Lawrence Helfand said:

The issue with vintage cars is not a single component is designed for a crash.

 

I've been beating the drum for years that adding "safety" accessories to a car not designed for it is really more a feel good measure than a real one.    If someone wants to put in belts because it makes the wife feel safer, then have at it.  

 

Years ago we had a guy posting on here who was a real prick.   He was lecturing all of us that it was dangerous to drive any car that didn't have belts.   He had them installed on his wooden framed prewar car and was pretty smug about it for a someone with zero engineering background.

[Rock10]

Not trying to start an argument, but what about kids?

Doesn't the law require them to be strapped in a car seat?

And is the alternative to be thrown out of the car?

[likeold]

Not sure if it's the same in every state but if the car was manufactured without seat belts you can take the grand kids for a ride, (MA) they don't need to be strapped in. But of course If anything happened It would be hard to live with. I took my grandson for a ride the other day, 8 years old, no belts, he loved it, but I asked the parents first if it was okay. I think seat belts look ugly In these vintage cars and like what someone else said, if it's only going to be a lap belt you can have more bodily injury by wearing that then no seat belt in a collision. Just my opinion.

[Rock10]

I never had any as a kid, but we were never in a wreck and I wasn't in anything older than the steel monsters of the 50's and 60's. A lot fewer drivers on the road back then.

[hidden_hunter]

12 hours ago, Rock10 said:

Doesn't the law require them to be strapped in a car seat?

 

 

The laws around it are pretty murky, the car needs to meet the safety standards of the day but then children are supposed to be in car seats

 

Either way, it's going to be more than a few years before my sons ready to go in my car but we'll probably find a carpark or something to give him a ride safely

[EmTee]

IMHO the most significant safety upgrade that can be made to pre-war cars is ensuring brake and tail lights are as bright as possible.  Even when everything is working as designed, visibility is considerably less than modern cars.  Switching to LED bulbs usually helps increase visibility from behind considerably.  Adding a high-mounted brake light is something else to consider.  If mounted inside the rear window, it could be fairly unobtrusive.  Aside from that, drive defensively and heed the 3-second rule.

[likeold]

I put the "brakelighter" third window brake light in every antique car I buy, I can't drive and feel comfortable with out it

[Rock10]

6 hours ago, EmTee said:

Aside from that, drive defensively and heed the 3-second rule.

I thought that was about dropping food on the floor? 🙂

[EmTee]

2 hours ago, Rock10 said:

I thought that was about dropping food on the floor? 🙂

NO - that's five seconds! 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H9QPvBfMVQ

[Morgan Wright]

As a doctor I agree, it takes 5 seconds for germs to grab onto food. Their hands are very small.

[27donb]

On 12/20/2021 at 1:20 PM, alsancle said:

 

I've been beating the drum for years that adding "safety" accessories to a car not designed for it is really more a feel good measure than a real one.    If someone wants to put in belts because it makes the wife feel safer, then have at it.  

 

Years ago we had a guy posting on here who was a real prick.   He was lecturing all of us that it was dangerous to drive any car that didn't have belts.   He had them installed on his wooden framed prewar car and was pretty smug about it for a someone with zero engineering background.

My further thoughts on seat belts is, where do you attach them?  I have two 27's and a 24 Buick.  If they are attached to the frame, in the unfortunate event of a severe accident, the body may separate from the frame so your body would be torn with the car body going one way and the chassis going another.  If you attach the belts to the body, then again, if the body separates from the frame you are going for a ride, possibly getting damaged as you leave the steering wheel location, which is attached firmly to the chassis.

 

Most modern cars were engineered for seat belts and other safety devices.  Cars of the 20's were not.

 

I grew up with the Buicks I now own.  When I was about 4, my grandparents took me on a 200 mile trip to a vacation spot in the 24 Buick model 45.  I asked if I could sit in the back seat but my grandmother was too afraid I would "bounce out" so I rode sitting between them up front.  The trip took all day, 30mph maximum speed, back roads only. 

 

This front seat time as a passenger over countless rides over a period of years taught me how to shift and drive the old Buicks. 

 

There is nothing, zero, that anyone driver can do about any other driver on the road and what they do.  Other drivers on the road today do not understand how old cars work.  When the light turns green, they just mash on the go pedal.  I have no control over the guy behind me, driving up my spare tire as I shift from 1st to 2nd with a pause in between, to reach 5mph, as they stand on their horn.  I gladly let them pass at the first safe opportunity.

 

When I'm at a red light and it turns green, I look both ways so I don't get T-boned by the guy who is texting his girl because he is late for a date and runs the red light.  By the way I do this in a modern car as well.

 

When I pull up a long local hill in 2nd gear at about 10mph and get a line of cars behind me as a result, the first thing I do at the crest on level ground is pull to the side and stop and wave everyone past me (safely of course). 

 

Defensive driving is what it's all about.

 

Slow driving on back roads is where I will be, with no seat belts installed.  There is always a risk of accidents on the road, I hope I will never be in one with the old Buicks I drive, and I wish everyone the same fate on the forum, whether you have seatbelts and LED stoplights or not.

 

[EmTee]

The trend in America these days is to take the driver out of driving...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuphU8GLv-E

[Morgan Wright]

I drive slowly to preserve the car. Destroying a 100 year old car is worse than killing myself. You can always make new people, but you can't make new 1917 Buicks.

[Buick35]

On 12/21/2021 at 4:04 PM, likeold said:

I put the "brakelighter" third window brake light in every antique car I buy, I can't drive and feel comfortable with out it

Where do you get the third brake light from? I'm thinking about one for my 35 buick,six volt system.Thanks

[Matt Harwood]

www.brakelighter.com

 

 

Edited December 23, 2021 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

One word of caution. If you decide to add extra braking to a prewar car be aware that the AMP gauge probably has a range of 0-30 or less. If someone says "When I step on my brakes the ammeter. goes all the way across. I must have a short." Don't get sucked into a bunch of troubleshooting. I had this complaint from the owner of a Rolls-Royce 20/25. It was in a shop for other service and having skills at fighting Lucas I was asked to check it out. Working alone on a Sunday I went through everything and found nothing. I gave up. I got ready to leave, shut off the shop lights, and stood there looking at the car one last time. I opened the car door and put my foot on the brake to watch the needle just once more. The whole garage lit up! Unbeknownst to me the owner had six brake lights installed. I measured the Ohmic value of one light. Times six the total amp draw came out to around 15 amps. Ohm's Law does work.

 

Just sharing a story for one of those "It never did that before" moments.

[Matt Harwood]

All my brake lights are LEDs. I don't even see the ammeter move anymore when I hit the brake pedal.

[60FlatTop]

The guys who paid me to check out their anomaly saw the needle dive when they pressed the pedal and the car wasn't running. Scared them.

[60FlatTop]

On 8/15/2018 at 5:50 PM, Hubert_25-25 said:

Very rarely do you see a photo of a vintage car after an accident.  This is a 1926 Buick Standard 2 door in the photo.  I don't now how the top section separated behind the seat, but it did.  A pretty high quality photo for it's day.  It might have been used for an insurance adjustment.  I saved this picture because there are some period details in the photo that we rarely see.  There is a stack of demountable rims next to the car, so a pretty early photo.   

I just showed this picture to my wife and read the part about how the roof got separated. I said he probably hooked a chain on the car and asked his wife to pull him backward and take off real slow. She laughed pretty good and said thanks for the memory. I remember her reply that day, "I took off lots slower than I usually do". She only bent the bumper at a 90 degree angle. Not hard to fix.

[likeold]

My brakelighter does not seem to draw any power, just a bunch of little led's. I do not have directionals and do not plan to install them. When I have a car behind me I pump the peddle a few times and most people back off quickly, I feel much safer. 

[Morgan Wright]

My ammeter doesn't move a bit when I step on the brakes. My left arm in the downward position doesn't draw any current. Ohm's law works.