56 starter relay

[56 Buick]

Hi

 

Looking for the starter relay part number.

 

From a search on the internet it appears the Delco Remy part is 1116963 or 1116967??????

 

Thanks

 

Drew

 

Edited September 15, 2018 by 56 Buick (see edit history)

[old-tank]

Answered in your other post ?.

[Beemon]

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/ECHHR201

[Beemon]

Be careful with the CarQuest relay. If your luck is like mine, the contacts will weld together and blow the starter. The armature is really thin. 

 

What's wrong with the original? 

[old-tank]

1 hour ago, Beemon said:

Be careful with the CarQuest relay.

Do I need to be more less worried after 8 years?

[56 Buick]

3 hours ago, Beemon said:

Be careful with the CarQuest relay. If your luck is like mine, the contacts will weld together and blow the starter. The armature is really thin. 

 

What's wrong with the original? 

Was removed by previous owner or the one before that. I suspect the accelerator switch is not working and hence why they bypassed everything and inserted an  ignition kill switch in its place. Though I think the purpose of the relay is also to stop the starter rolling on as soon as the motor fires up.

[Beemon]

2 hours ago, old-tank said:

Do I need to be more less worried after 8 years?

Just speaking from experience of buying one of the last new ones before it was discontinued. When you bought it, it must have been made of sterner stuff. 

[56 Buick]

Any issue in using a horn relay as a starter relay if they have the same configuration? Is there a current difference that starter relays are built for and can handle as opposed to horn relays?

[Beemon]

You would have to use a multimeter to determine the amperage draw at start, then find a universal relay that can handle the draw.  Anything that uses a ground and hot wire to open and close a switched relay should work. I would compare the wiring diagram to one of those black box relays and then put a fuse in the line to the load switch. 

[56 Buick]

Thanks. And to confirm my thinking ... The relay needed here would be normally closed? 

 

In other words, in the closed state it normally allows current to the starter solenoid to engage the starter but then once the engine fires and creates voltage via the generator, the generator regulator tells the starter relay to open and the current to the starter is stopped.

[Beemon]

Correct, the armature is grounded through the field of the generator. When the generator starts charging, I believe the field coils generate 6V that opens the armature and separates the contact points. 

[56 Buick]

I have bought a Delco Remy NOS relay that suits 12V system. The relay is listed as being normally closed that intermittently opens. Hopefully I will receive it soon. It was listed as a horn relay. Anyway, I will update whether it works correctly once I receive and install it.

[56 Buick]

After receiving and installing the relay it appears the relay type that is required is not 'normally closed' but rather 'normally open'.  Meaning the car will not start until the relay coil is activated and closes the relay armature.  After turning the ignition switch, current will flow through the neutral safety switch and onto the relay.  That flow of current then makes the relay coil live and closes the armature to allow current to effectively flow from the battery and down to the starter.  Once the engine starts the the green wire from the voltage regulator should produce current that effectively causes the current flowing in the relay coil to stop and causing the armature to again open and thus stopping the flow of current to the starter.  I think this then stops the starter from engaging longer than it should.

 

Anyway, the relay is not operating as it should and it appears the current flowing in the relay coil is not stopping.  When the engine is running I put a voltmeter between ground and the green wire from the voltage regulator and it only reads about 1 Volt which seems low.  I am wondering whether that is the reason why the current flow in the relay coil does not stop.  

 

My question is whether anyone has experience with this issue or knows whether that voltage reading is normal?

 

Thanks

 

Drew

 

[56 Buick]

So I bought one of the carquest starter relays off ebay that Oldtank had located. However, after fitting this relay the starter can still run on after the engine fires and it causes that horrific grinding sound.

 

The starter has done this ever since i bought the car but there was no starter relay on the car when i bought it, so i presumed the lack of the relay was the issue. The relay is supposed to stop the current to the starter after the engine fires but that is still not happening even with the new relay fitted.

 

There is no accelerator switch or carb switch anymore as they have been bypassed. The ignition switch and nuetral switch are now incorporated into a new button switch that is pushed and held until the engine fires. The current flows from the button switch direct to the starter relay where it closes the relay circuit and sends current to the starter.

 

Anyway, I have wired the relay according to the shop manual with the light green wire coming from the generator regulator going to the 3rd post of the starter relay. When the engine fires, the generator should send current to the generator regulator and then the current should flow through the light green wire and cause the starter relay circuit to open and stop current flowing to the starter even if the button switch is still sending current to the starter relay.

 

So I am now stumped as to what the issue is?  Is it possibly the generator not supplying sufficient current or is there something else that I am missing?

[Beemon]

Open the relay up and inspect the contacts. If it's arcing and welding the points together like my unit did, then it will destroy the starter. Replace it with the unit I specified above.

 

If the points do not show arcing or welding conditions, double check the starter wires are not loose and touching each other. You might also want to pull the end cap off the solenoid if you can reach it and check the copper wafer for signs of arcing or welding. 

 

The green wire should be 18 gauge and should be attached to the armature tab on the voltage regulator. The ignition signal passing through the neutral safety switch is also 18 gauge. From the neutral safety switch, it goes to the key which goes directly to the battery. 

 

It might be best to run everything back through the original wiring until you can determine the source of the problem.

 

Is the starter starting because you pressed the button to test or is it random? 

[old-tank]

9 hours ago, 56 Buick said:

The starter has done this ever since i bought the car

Apply 12v+ to the black wire on the relay.  This bypasses all relays and neutral safety switches.  Report back.

[56 Buick]

12 hours ago, old-tank said:

Apply 12v+ to the black wire on the relay.  This bypasses all relays and neutral safety switches.  Report back.

This will run the starter and cause it to run on after the engine fires until i am able to stop the current.

[56 Buick]

16 hours ago, Beemon said:

Open the relay up and inspect the contacts. If it's arcing and welding the points together like my unit did, then it will destroy the starter. Replace it with the unit I specified above.

 

If the points do not show arcing or welding conditions, double check the starter wires are not loose and touching each other. You might also want to pull the end cap off the solenoid if you can reach it and check the copper wafer for signs of arcing or welding. 

 

The green wire should be 18 gauge and should be attached to the armature tab on the voltage regulator. The ignition signal passing through the neutral safety switch is also 18 gauge. From the neutral safety switch, it goes to the key which goes directly to the battery. 

 

It might be best to run everything back through the original wiring until you can determine the source of the problem.

 

Is the starter starting because you pressed the button to test or is it random? 

The starter is starting only because i press and hold the button.  The current available to the starter stops when i release the button.  It seems to me the current coming from the voltage regulator may not be suficient to open the starter relay circuit again.

 

I also bought a new voltage regulator thinking the issue may have been there but no change.

 

It seems to me that the starter relay is failing to operate correctly by opening the contacts when the engine fires. Now i am not sure whether that is because the generator is not supplying enough current, or the starter relay is just not functioning correctly.

 

I think i will have to take the starter relay apart and check its operation. If the contacts are fused then i will know the issue. If the contacts appear good then i am not sure how i can exclude the generator being the problem by not providing enough current.

[56 Buick]

16 hours ago, Beemon said:

Open the relay up and inspect the contacts. If it's arcing and welding the points together like my unit did, then it will destroy the starter. Replace it with the unit I specified above.

 

If the points do not show arcing or welding conditions, double check the starter wires are not loose and touching each other. You might also want to pull the end cap off the solenoid if you can reach it and check the copper wafer for signs of arcing or welding. 

 

The green wire should be 18 gauge and should be attached to the armature tab on the voltage regulator. The ignition signal passing through the neutral safety switch is also 18 gauge. From the neutral safety switch, it goes to the key which goes directly to the battery. 

 

It might be best to run everything back through the original wiring until you can determine the source of the problem.

 

Is the starter starting because you pressed the button to test or is it random? 

The starter is starting only because i press and hold the button.  The current available to the starter stops when i release the button.  It seems to me the current coming from the voltage regulator may not be suficient to open the starter relay circuit again.

 

I also bought a new voltage regulator thinking the issue may have been there but no change.

 

It seems to me that the starter relay is failing to operate correctly by opening the contacts when the engine fires. Now i am not sure whether that is because the generator is not supplying enough current, or the starter relay is just not functioning correctly.

 

I think i will have to take the starter relay apart and check its operation. If the contacts are fused then i will know the issue. If the contacts appear good then i am not sure how i can exclude the generator being the problem by not providing enough current.

[JohnD1956]

On ‎9‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 1:22 AM, 56 Buick said:

'Anyway, the relay is not operating as it should and it appears the current flowing in the relay coil is not stopping.  When the engine is running I put a voltmeter between ground and the green wire from the voltage regulator and it only reads about 1 Volt which seems low.  I am wondering whether that is the reason why the current flow in the relay coil does not stop.  

 

Going back to this question from your previous post, I do not think there is something wrong with the voltage regulator unit.  I hesitate to discuss electrical components since I am not in any way an expert on this subject.  However in reading the '56 Manual, I think some things are safely said.  

* Since you took a voltage reading at the green wire on the Voltage regulator unit, then if the wiring is still in the right position, you took a reading of the "current regulator" which should be deactivated when the engine is at an idle.  Whether or not a reading of 1 volt is correct, I cannot say.  But the manual says the "current regulator" is active for periods when maximum generator output is called for, otherwise the "voltage regulator" is the active component.

* For those of us who do not know, it should be stated that the voltage regulator unit contains three (3) control devices.  The "Current Regulator", the "Voltage Regulator" and the "Cutout Relay". This cutout relay is not for the starter circuit.  It is to disconnect the battery from discharging through the generator whenever the engine is stopped or when the generator is operating at such a low speed that its voltage is less than that of the battery.

 

As regards your starter continuing to run after the engine is started, two things seem to be apparent:

* Earlier posts indicate that you received this car without a starter relay in place.  And instead of the carburetor starter switch there was a push button installed for activating the starter.  What we do not know is how this push button starter switch was wired in. 

* your latest post indicates you may be holding the push button starter switch after the engine fires, counting on the starter relay which you recently installed to automatically cut the current to the solenoid.  I am going to assume you installed the starter relay in the original position and with the wires routed to the connections as per the manual.  What we do not know is, did that relay wind up between your solenoid terminal and the push button switch? 

 

If by chance the push button switch has not been isolated through the starter relay, then continuing to hold the starter button after the engine fires merely supplies a 2nd  source of power to the solenoid.  

 

On a historical related note, I also used an auxiliary  starter button in the past,  before fixing my carburetor switch.  Without the benefit of knowing the rest of the system at that time, I merely disconnected the two wires from the carburetor starter switch and ran jumper wires from each one to my starter button.  This resulted in keeping the starter relay in the loop of the system for it to assume it's function.  But since your starter relay was removed before you got the car it sounds like an alternative routing was done which remains unprotected after the engine starts.   I would therefor suggest you have to investigate how that auxiliary starter button is wired, and make sure that you actually have the starter relay as the final go between after the auxiliary starter switch and the solenoid. 

Edited December 28, 2018 by JohnD1956 (see edit history)

[56 Buick]

Hi John

 

Thanks for the assistance. 

 

Soon after I bought the car I went an retraced the push button start wiring.  The active wire comes from the battery to the key ignition switch which then goes to the neutral switch and then to one side of the aux button switch.  The other side of the aux button switch then routes to terminal # 4 of the starter relay.  The relay is wired up now per the shop manual, so the relay is between the aux button switch and the starter solenoid. 

 

Terminal # 1 of the starter relay has the continuous live feed.  The starter relay is normally open and will close when there is current into terminal # 4 - that is the ignition switch is on and the gear shift is in neutral or park and the aux button switch is activated.  When the starter relay is closed this then allows current to flow to the starter solenoid (running from terminal # 2) until the engine fires and the generator feeds current to the voltage regulator.  Once this occurs then the current regulator (within the voltage regulator) should feed current to terminal # 3 of the starter relay that then opens the starter relay circuit and stops current flowing to the starter solenoid - despite the fact I may still be holding down the aux button switch.  That is what should happen and everything is wired up to work that way.

 

Just thinking aloud now but the only other issue may be that the carquest branded starter relay is wired differently and perhaps I need to swap terminals # 3 and # 2 around - that may explain what is happening or rather not happening?  If these 2 terminals were incorrect then when I hit the aux button switch that would close the relay circuit but also send current straight to the solenoid and keep sending current to the solenoid while the aux button switch is depressed.  That would cause the starter run on.  The closed relay circuit would also cause the live current from the battery to run to the current regulator - that is while the aux button switch is depressed but I have no idea what that would do or effect it would have?

 

Anyone have any idea of what damage I may do by swapping the 2 terminals if there they already are wired up correctly?

 

I think I am going to have to pull the starter relay and see how its wired first.

 

 

 

[56 Buick]

BTW when i bought the car and there was no starter relay, the key ignition switch was wired direct to one side of the aux button switch and the other side of the aux button switch was connected direct to the solenoid. This obviously would cause the starter to run on when the aux button switch was depressed.

[old-tank]

12 hours ago, 56 Buick said:

until the engine fires and the generator feeds current to the voltage regulator.  Once this occurs then the current regulator (within the voltage regulator) should feed current to terminal # 3 of the starter relay that then opens the starter relay circuit and stops current flowing to the starter solenoid

You are thinking too complicated.  That green wire on the 'gen' or 'arm' terminal of the regulator serves to ground the starter relay through the generator armature.  That ground potential is lost when the generator starts charging, disabling the relay.  The voltage regulator has nothing to do with this function other than sharing a terminal.

Remove and open the relay to verify condition and then bench test to verify function vs how it is attached to the car wiring.

[Beemon]

If there is no voltage flowing through the green wire at the starter relay end, then there is something wrong with your generator. The Carquest relay should wire the same as the OEM relay, you can check either by looking at the bottom of the relay circuit board or opening the unit up. The shop manual states the green wire should be equal to the generator voltage. 

[56 Buick]

Good spot Ben. I checked the generator and it is only providing charge of about 1 volt. I know little of generators but i think that may mean the brushes are worn.

 

Question is whether i replace the brushes or just locate a rebuilt unit. What is the cost difference?

[Beemon]

Brushes are $2, rebuild is expensive. I bought a reman for $150. Usually the old armatures just decay with age since solder and micah aren't as great as they are today. You can try new brushes, but if you take it apart and there's a solder ring on the inside of the case, that's an indication that the armature is done. If you're getting 1V, it may have already thrown a winding.

 

I had a thread about this last year. My second generator is at my dorm, i can't seem to find my first. I did have a real janky alternator conversion that worked well but I prefer the look of the generator and I'll most likely invest in a PowerGen when this generator goes out or I decide to finally buy an EFI kit.