CONCOURS VS AACA

[DAVE A]

A topic that comes up in many discussions is the idea of a CONCOURS type show verses the way the AACA does a show.  There are obvious differences in who pays for what and obvious similarities in prestige in winning awards, and many of us participate in both.   I'm curious as to what drives different people to participate in each.  Just looking for opinions and ideas as to improvements that could be made for both.  Thank you.

 

[Restorer32]

We participate in both and find both enjoyable. Would love to see a major concours in the Washington DC area "Nations Capital Concours d'Elegance" maybe? I think a general perception is that "politics" plays a bigger role in concours style judging than in AACA style events. If I were the one in charge I would tighten up AACA judging, making it more difficult to qualify for the various awards. I don't think an AACA award means as much now as it once did.  Most everyone gets a First versus very few Seconds and Thirds. I don;t want an AACA award to become a "participation trophy". In concours judging I would want to see the system changed so that even the perception of "politics" was eliminated.

[Bob Hill]

If the AACA shows were to resemble any Concours event I have ever seen, I would NEVER participate again.  To me, the Concours events are too formal.  I see it as bein g very "who's car is it" type of show, etc vs. the AACA being about the car and (hopefully) not the owner.  I agree with Restorer32 - I have seen cars at AACA Meets get a 1st Junior that I scratch my head and ask "how?" !!

 

Bob

Edited July 27, 2018 by Bob Hill (see edit history)

[Paul Dobbin]

I seldom show at AACA Shows and never have at a Concourse Show.  To me a tour is a lot more fun than sitting around a parking lot ll day for another bowling trophy with an old car on top.

With that being said I prefer the format of mixing the cars together for display.  I tend to bypass the rows with all similar cars side by side.  Maybe all the teens together and all the 20's or 30's together would make a more interesting display for the spectators.   Set up for the convenience of the judges seems awkward, after all they should be able to identify the cars in the class they are judging.  The Concourse is a more interesting show to see..  (My 2 cents)

[Walt G]

I have belonged to AACA since 1965, and had an old (at least one pre war era) car since 1963. The fellows who I got to know and were my mentors in that early stage never cared to much for awards, so influenced my own outlook on that. Some had high level original or restored cars but never trailered anything anyplace. I have never had my cars judged,  can understand the reward that it may bring but the appeal the cars have for me is style,  to see them return be the way when they were new, and the ability to drive them day or night and in wet weather as well. A classic era Franklin I restored in the early 1970s and drove considerably after it was done for decades (40,000 plus miles) is with a new owner and has won numerous awards - now . I am happy for the current owner who is a great friend, and he drives the cars on tours as well. All this with a nitrocellulose lacquer paint job that I spent months working on to get it to my standard/level 35+ years ago. He is happy , I am happy ( that the restoration has held up so well) and the car now resides within a half hour of where it was sold new, and was owned by the original owner for over a decade. I agree with Restorer32. But to all , enjoy the car you have at the level you want to, but by all means share it with other collectors and the general public as well. Make yourself and someone else happy with the car you have.

[A. Ballard 35R]

Having participated in tours, AACA meets, and several concours events, my favorite would be tours since they are the closest to using a car as it was originally intended. I totally agree with Jeff that AACA awards would be much more meaningful if the standards were tightened. It makes me wince to see an HPOF award given to a totally made up car and a nickel era car with accessories changed to brass plus a poor conversion to a speedster get a First. Concours events seem to have overly political aspects but it is nice to see outstanding cars, especially CCCA Classics that are not often seen at other events. Guess it is simply a case of take your pick and enjoy all of them.

[Bhigdog]

I participate in both and enjoy both. AACA judging is more formal although I agree has been made more "user friendly". Likely to encourage participation but also likely to devalue any award given. Concours judging is all over the map ranging from a quick walk past to one I attended recently where the judges spent 15 minutes per car and asked to see everything function including the radio and clock. Wipers were exempt.

I routinely decline the trophy hardware at aaca shows and accept it at concours only as a courtesy, so my judging comments are only an observation not a recommendation.

Concours events usually make a nice profit (for charity) because they charge a hefty spectator entrance fee and also very pricy  extra curricular events. Since many well heeled entrants are subsidizing the show politics is inevitable.

I see no evidence of politics in the judging at aaca events just the afore mentioned laxness.

There is a noticeable difference between aaca and concour shows. At concour events the car entrants are understood to be the draw for the show, the "rock stars", and are treated accordingly.  There is no entrant fee. Typically there is a hospitality tent with coffee, soda, pastry, snacks, water etc. Typically a very nice sit down lunch is also provided. Each grouping of cars also usually has a "sitter" to watch over the cars and help with any needs you might have. A person feels appreciated. It's a very nice event.

AACA shows have a bit of a different flavor. A role reversal in that the entertainment is charged for the privilege of entertaining the guests and no stone is left unturned looking for evermore revenue from the "rock stars". I guess the model works for the club but it sometimes seems like they feel that they should be the ones more appreciated.

It would be awfully nice if the two were more alike but I can see some of the reasons that can't be.

Yup I know. No easy answers...............................Please don't kill the messenger..................Bob

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Steve Moskowitz]

I have a lot to say here but no time as I am heading to St. Johns for their concours in a few minutes.  However, let me address Jeff's comments about winning a First Junior.  Since my first show in 1985 as a car entrant, I have seen cars that IN MY OPINION that did not deserve a National First Prize, it happens.  When judging is done by over 1,000 human beings with all different degrees of expertise it can happen.  It can happen on a rainy day and it can happen just because a team just blew it!  That being said let's look at FACTS (they do get in the way sometimes ).  In 2017 474 vehicles got a First Junior, 199 got Seconds and Thirds and then another number I do not have handy did not win anything at all.  So, it still isn't all that easy to get your award.  I still bristle over a wooden bodied car that was all fiberglass with matting showing through that won a AGNM award in the 90's.  I was parked next to him! 

 

I have always said this about our judging system "it does not bother me so much when someone wins an award he should not but if someone does not win award that he should have that is a far bigger problem"

 

In any case both types of shows promote the hobby we love and I am thankful they both exist.  

[Restorer32]

But shouldn't it be the other way round? 474 Seconds and Thirds and 199 Firsts?  I loved judging and wish I was physically still able. 

[Bob Hill]

13 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

But shouldn't it be the other way round? 474 Seconds and Thirds and 199 Firsts?  I loved judging and wish I was physically still able. 

 

Depends on how the cars are - to just say that you should automatically have 1/2 as many 1st Junior Awards is starting to be almsot political in nature IMHO.  If a car deserves a 1st Junior it should get it.  I have seena  few that IMHO did not deserve it but to say that you need twice as many 2nds is rigging the judging IMO.

 

Bob

[Restorer32]

Has the quality of restoration gotten so much better than in the past or has judging gotten less strict ? That is the question I think. It's a two edged sword. Easier judging attracts more members but devalues the awards. Just my very humble opinion of course. 

[Terry Bond]

Don't assume all those 1st place awards are for cars out for the 1st showing.  Some cars are often shown several times until they reach the level the owner is trying to achieve.  The message our VP of Judging Jim Elliott continues to provide at every National Meet during the judge breakfast is spot on.  It's important to be encouraging and as helpful as possible to our members so they can continue to improve their cars and that's what often occurs. CJE continues to produce smarter judges and our members continue to work hard on their vehicles so the result is seen at the awards banquet.  I also see a lot of vehicles that climb the ladder of awards, then once they reach a certain level, they are out on tour.  It's a great hobby.

Terry

[Bob Giles]

Having just returned from the Keeneland Concours, I can tell you it’s not anywhere like a AACA event. You can’t compare the Hershey Elegance with the Hershey Region Show.  The judging appears to be at a much higher level where you are being judged against the competition and not yourself. Everything about a Concours event is at a much higher level. Admission was $20.00 and lunch was by invitation at $45.00. By the way, there wasn’t a charge for trailer parking.

The vehicle I was showing won First Place in its class. Far and away, the most fun I ever had at a show.

[Bhigdog]

13 minutes ago, Bob Giles said:

Having just returned from the Keeneland Concours, I can tell you it’s not anywhere like a AACA event. You can’t compare the Hershey Elegance with the Hershey Region Show.  The judging appears to be at a much higher level where you are being judged against the competition and not yourself. Everything about a Concours event is at a much higher level. Admission was $20.00 and lunch was by invitation at $45.00. By the way, there wasn’t a charge for trailer parking.

The vehicle I was showing won First Place in its class. Far and away, the most fun I ever had at a show.

 

You were parked a few trailers over from me. I had a brief wait to unload my 55 Olds while you got underway behind me. Congrats on your win................Bob

[John_S_in_Penna]

34 minutes ago, Bob Giles said:

The vehicle I was showing won First Place in its class. Far and away, the most fun I ever had at a show.

 

That delivery truck belongs to one of our local AACA members.

He has shown it at several places, most recently at the AACA Spring Meet in Gettysburg.

Were you showing a vehicle that belongs to someone else?

[Bob Giles]

Yes, I had the distinct privilege to show the vehicle belonging to your member. He was unable to attend and gave me the opptunity to experience a Concours.  This was a thrill of a lifetime.

[cxgvd]

Hello Bob;  My wife and I enjoyed the Vintage Tour last summer and are looking forward to Kingston next year.  I had my 1913 Buick judged at Auburn, even though the car had issues I received my Second Junior and was pleased with the result.  I thought I registered for the Driver's category and could have changed but was talked into staying put.  Actually why I went to judging was to obtain my Century Club plaque which I mounted and people think it is pretty special .  I am presently restoring a 1915 McLaughlin, though it too is for touring, I will have the car judged and would be happy with a First Junior and Century Club award.  I know Concours is not for me or the Great Race either.

 

Best regards, Gary

[Bob Giles]

Kingston here we come. 

[John348]

Having participated in both I feel it is like comparing apples to oranges. From my understanding concours events are really designed to be charity events, so the cars are selected to give the spectators a diversified show for the money that is charged for spectators. The one I participated in was free. They even fed us, but the spectator's also paid $75 to go through the gate. 

As far as what I enjoy participating in more it would have to be an AACA Meet.

[Guest]

I'm certain everyone here is clear on this:

 

Concours: an exhibition or contest, especially a parade of vintage or classic motor vehicles in which prizes are awarded for those in the best original condition. 

Concourse: a large open area inside or in front of a public building, as in an airport or train station.

 

I will share this anecdote with you.

There is an information supply business (who will remain nameless here) that is available to those collecting cars more from the muscle car era.  Their motto, which is branded on all of their correspondence, letter head, business signs, on-line sites, simply everywhere is: "Concourse Quality, Hobbyist Price"

I had the opportunity to use this service about a year ago and through general conversation, this glaring error came up. In the politest manner I asked the owner about it. Well, I thought he was going to blow a gasket. He went from Jekyll to Hyde in a nano-second. "How dare I ask such a question?!" "That's the way I meant it to be!"  "It is correct!!" "You've got some nerve questioning me!" etc., etc., etc.

I was absolutely flabbergasted by his response, until I realized I'd hit a nerve. This had probably been brought to his attention a thousand times before. It was simply too late to correct the blunder as it was everywhere and on everything associated with his business. I actually felt bad for the guy.

Later I asked others about this strange interaction and apparently they all new what I didn't. "Don't ever mention (Mr. X's) spelling error or his head will explode and you'll face the wrath!" 

[Bhigdog]

22 minutes ago, GregLaR said:

I actually felt bad for the guy.

 

Yes, I to can feel his pane.

 

 “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”

 

See, He was correct. ......................Bob

 

Edited July 27, 2018 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

About 3 years ago I was at a restaurant when I fellow asked if the old car outside was mine. I said it was and he suggested I enter it in the concours preservation class. I explained it was a driver not a show car. He said he was one of the officials and would send me an invite, which did arrive in the mail. Instead of entering I went to the show and checked out the “preservation” class. If these cars were anything less than restored trailer queens i’ m a 20 year old guy with premature grey hair. It is fun to see some of these rare cars in beautiful condition but I will never enter one of these shows. I agree a tour is much more my style of fun. 

Dave S 

[1937hd45]

Oh boy, why open this can or worms? EVERYTHING 25 years old is on an AACA show field, Pebble Beach and other events like it request the cars that grace the lawn every year. I had enough of AACA judging after 30 years, it stopped being fun. I did get to Pebble Beach two years ago as a spectator, it was everything I'd hoped for and more. The sheer beauty of the cars was breathtaking, it was pure artwork, years of work by skilled artisans. Quality, the best of the best, and I can't recall one open hood, or two like bodied cars in any class. Bob 

[DAVE A]

Why open his kettle of worms?  To learn more about what makes people happy. To possibly search for solutions to grow our great organization. I have my opinions on why people prefer AACA or Concours events, however I know that it takes a wide variety of people to make our hobby.  Maybe, by asking, I will find out something that is outside my experiences and use it for improvement.

[Rooney3100]

Just an opinion from a member that's been to 5 AACA shows since 2016: 

I put a lot of Time - Money and Hard Work into the restoration of my 1956 Chevrolet Truck, I didn't do it to go to any shows, I did it because I wanted to get that vehicle as close to original as possible in every detail.

After I had finished it I wanted to do something with it because I Knew I couldn't just drive it like all my other Drivers I've had in the past, So I started searching for the Type of shows that my truck would fit into with the caliber of restoration that was done on the truck and to see it appreciated like I appreciate the restoration...I know I will never be able to do a restoration again.

So I decided to take our truck to an AACA National Event in 2016, I didn't go thinking or expecting that I deserve every award there is to be had, just wanted to see how high of a level our restoration can Go at any AACA Events….So far I've made a First Grand National award, I don't believe that AACA gives you this just to keep you coming back to there events, I tried to cover every inch of my truck when I was doing the restoration, I didn't even know about AACA while doing my restoration , So during my first show I felt like I fit right in, (Heck I wanted to see if I was the only won was this finicky with Vehicle restorations), I wasn't, I can fully understand what people go thru to get to one of the AACA shows, We are very Fortunate to be able to find the time and Money to show what we have accomplished to others at an AACA event, I haven't been to a Concours Show but I'm not sure if they would even accept my 1956 Chevrolet truck just because it's a truck, most of the time it's older more expensive vehicles.

So I'm happy that we are able to show our truck to an organization that appreciates what the average JOE Blow can do with his or hers money and time to bring back what a Car or Truck should look like from the factory....AACA lets you know with it's judging if you have accomplished that.....After taking it as far as I can go with judging I would like to try the Touring  or Judging some day since my wife and I are retiring  this year....STEVE M

Edited July 29, 2018 by Rooney3100 (see edit history)

[Phillip Cole]

DaveA, thanks for this thread. Some good, honest opinions here! Having done all three (counting touring), I enjoy all three for what they are, because I simply love classic cars in whatever form they present themselves.

Edited July 28, 2018 by Phillip Cole
Correction (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

53 minutes ago, Rooney3100 said:

I haven't been to a Concours Show but I'm not sure if they would even accept my 1956 Chevrolet truck just because it's a truck,

 

Many concours events have a truck class. I had my 39 Chevy JC pick up to the Radnor Hunt show  ..........Bob

[real61ss]

I have enjoyed reading this thread, I've been showing at AACA National Meets now for a little over 25 years and have been fortunate in the awards dept., AACA has been very good to me, I have never been to a conqours event but thats about to change as my car was accepted in the Hemmings Conqours Event at Lake George, NY. Im really looking forward to it, hope i'm not disappointed !

[charlier]

I have been to a number of AACA Meets and Grand National Meets through the years. The early meets as a spectator, the later meets entering a car and/or judging at. The year one of my cars received it's 1st Grand National I was invited to bring that car to a Concours d' Elegance which was honoring 50 years of Giorgetto Giugiaro for his automotive design work. The chairman of the event recruited a number of car owners whose cars had been designed  by Mr. Giugiaro. When I drove up to the gate of the event in my car I was told the event was "Invitation Only" and asked to turn around. I told the person that they should talk to Mr. Smith (not his real name) because he had personally invited me to attend. After the misunderstanding was clear up (along with a LOT of apologizing) I was shown to the part of the show field where the cars honoring Mr. Giugiaro  were parked. The rest of the day I had a smile on my face especially when I overheard comments from some spectators and judges about the show cars on the field and the featured cars in my group. Let's just say the snooty comments were flowing like a river. Granted one event is not a good way to judge all events of this type but one does have to wonder. Anyway, all the owners in my group of feature cars had a nice time hanging out together in the "lower class section". LOL. ?

 

Charlie

[Bhigdog]

Every concours event I attended provided an info package well in advance along with ID lanyards, luncheon passes, etc etc.  There is some truth to what you say about the lower class section. When you are mixed in with cars that the owner has trailered in by his "staff" while he flies in or arrives in his yacht (yup, actually saw that) there is bound to be some snootiness and down the nose looking.

That said, (except for one pseudo concours), my wife and I have only been treated with great respect and appreciation for bringing our car. ................Bob

[Matt Harwood]

On 7/27/2018 at 10:16 AM, Restorer32 said:

We participate in both and find both enjoyable. Would love to see a major concours in the Washington DC area "Nations Capital Concours d'Elegance" maybe? I think a general perception is that "politics" plays a bigger role in concours style judging than in AACA style events. If I were the one in charge I would tighten up AACA judging, making it more difficult to qualify for the various awards. I don't think an AACA award means as much now as it once did.  Most everyone gets a First versus very few Seconds and Thirds. I don;t want an AACA award to become a "participation trophy". In concours judging I would want to see the system changed so that even the perception of "politics" was eliminated.

 

On 7/27/2018 at 12:06 PM, Restorer32 said:

Has the quality of restoration gotten so much better than in the past or has judging gotten less strict ? That is the question I think. It's a two edged sword. Easier judging attracts more members but devalues the awards. 

 

Bingo!

 

Most judging seems to be getting softer. I hear all kinds of guys say, "It's just for fun, it shouldn't be so serious," or "The guy just spent $200,000, don't you think he's earned it?" as excuses for handing out perfect scores and first-place trophies all over the place. But the moment someone doesn't get the score they think they've earned (bought?) they lose their minds and everyone forgets all about fun. This is serious business! This is REAL MONEY we're talking about! And the minute they do win first place, they sell their car bragging about how it won all these awards and raise the price accordingly. You can't have it both ways--either the judging means something or it's a hand-out "just for fun." It can't be both.

 

For the moment, there's a perception that an AACA or CCCA badge on a car still means the car has been vetted by experts and does carry some weight (marque clubs certainly do still carry weight, as far as I'm concerned). But as it becomes easier for cars to earn that first place award, and therefore more cars have it, it will naturally become less valuable, the club(s) will become less relevant, and the values on the cars will ultimately be hurt. Again, it's the typical greedy mindset of sacrificing the future for a short-term gain. It's ultimately counter-productive to the greater good. 

 

I think part of this is the format and time constraints. Some of it might be lack of experience. And some might just be because people are getting older. Two weeks ago at a CCCA Grand Classic, I think two people (me being one of them) actually got down on the ground and looked under the cars they were judging. Old guys don't do that and rich guys don't want to risk soiling their $900 pants. So they grade shiny paint and clean interiors, but totally neglect judging anything under the car or hard to see. That's why a member of this very board, upon going to inspect a car that had recently been awarded 98.5 points in CCCA competition, was flabbergasted that it was rusty and dirty underneath and full of incorrect details. As I've said before, the scores that are being handed out today are not indicative of the quality of the cars, but rather the quality of the judging.

 

CCCA just tried to tighten things up, but everyone lost their friggin' minds over the proposed changes (which would make it considerably harder to get a perfect score), so we've gone back to "Is it shiny? OK,  give it 100 points." I don't even know why I bother judging because my scorecard gets thrown out every time anyway. Cars I've judged have earned 100 point trophies when I didn't award them anywhere near 100 points. It's enough to make you do a spit-take. That car earned WHAT?!? I don't believe in the perfect car and the preponderance of perfect scores should be a red flag for anyone who cares about integrity in the hobby.

 

Concours events are beauty contests and I really can't judge (no pun intended) that system. It isn't necessarily about how authentic a car might be but rather how perfect, how pretty, how well-styled. It is surely political in many cases, and there's definitely a "good old boys club" that pretty much runs the them all and picks winners. But without the constraint of authenticity and "correctness" who can complain? If a modern coachbuilder can build a gorgeous open body on a frumpy limousine chassis, well, go ahead. Just keep your mouth shut about what you did and we'll just pretend we don't know about it. Whatever.

 

I'm obviously very disillusioned by the judging in this hobby. I don't have my cars judged, so I don't really have a dog in this fight other than to say that we're judging ourselves into irrelevance at a time when it is more critical than ever that we be at the top of our game. Letting things slide and acting like it's only for fun is fine, I can certainly live with that, but don't whine to me that your car should be worth $10,000 more than the one next to it just because it has an award badge on it. You want those badges to be worth something? You want that sense of accomplishment after restoring it? You want to feel like you've EARNED something rather than just a "participation trophy" as Jeff says? Then insist that the judges do their job properly. Insist on a higher standard.

 

How many of you complain that we're making kids soft by giving them all a trophy just for signing up for little league, no matter how poorly they play? We're doing the same thing to our hobby and our clubs.

[1937hd45]

4 hours ago, charlier said:

I have been to a number of AACA Meets and Grand National Meets through the years. The early meets as a spectator, the later meets entering a car and/or judging at. The year one of my cars received it's 1st Grand National I was invited to bring that car to a Concours d' Elegance which was honoring 50 years of Giorgetto Giugiaro for his automotive design work. The chairman of the event recruited a number of car owners whose cars had been designed  by Mr. Giugiaro. When I drove up to the gate of the event in my car I was told the event was "Invitation Only" and asked to turn around. I told the person that they should talk to Mr. Smith (not his real name) because he had personally invited me to attend. After the misunderstanding was clear up (along with a LOT of apologizing) I was shown to the part of the show field where the cars honoring Mr. Giugiaro  were parked. The rest of the day I had a smile on my face especially when I overheard comments from some spectators and judges about the show cars on the field and the featured cars in my group. Let's just say the snooty comments were flowing like a river. Granted one event is not a good way to judge all events of this type but one does have to wonder. Anyway, all the owners in my group of feature cars had a nice time hanging out together in the "lower class section". LOL. ?

 

Charlie

I had to go to Google to find out who he was, designer of the DeLorean. Is the Car Designer of the Century a yearly award? 

Bob

[charlier]

3 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

I had to go to Google to find out who he was, designer of the DeLorean. Is the Car Designer of the Century a yearly award? 

Bob

 

The DeLorean was just one of over 70 production cars and 90 concept cars credited to Mr. Giorgetto Giugiaro. 

 

It is my understanding that The Car Designer of the Century was an international award given to the most influential car designer of the 20th century in 1999 which was the last time it was awarded.

 

[charlier]

7 hours ago, Bhigdog said:

Every concours event I attended provided an info package well in advance along with ID lanyards, luncheon passes, etc etc.  There is some truth to what you say about the lower class section. When you are mixed in with cars that the owner has trailered in by his "staff" while he flies in or arrives in his yacht (yup, actually saw that) there is bound to be some snootiness and down the nose looking.

That said, (except for one pseudo concours), my wife and I have only been treated with great respect and appreciation for bringing our car. ................Bob

 

I received an info packet when I arrived at the event (after my initial greeting) which had a number of items in it.

The snootiness I posted about of was not directed to just the cars in the section honoring Mr. Giugiaro. I heard those type of snooty comments in various parts of the show field during the event as well. Made for some interesting entertainment for some of us who heard and saw what was going on.

 

Charlie

[cxgvd]

Here is an interesting item which has no solution I can think of.  I am restoring a 1915 car and I use a local well known restoration company which I also work for part time,  Friday, I bought in my fenders for some small repair and sandblasting before priming and painting.  The skirts below the top of the front fender are not even in height, they wave up and down just a few millimeters but definitely noticeable.  If it was a concours restoration the original shoddy workmanship would be cut out and fixed.  If I was up for an award with the AACA against another properly restored car I would come out second best.  We left the skirts as is because it is cheaper and we felt it was the correct thing to do, I don't expect to be invited to a concours and will be happy with a Junior award.  When sitting on the showroom floor the cars were not great.

 

Regards, Gary

 

[39BuickEight]

I have been to the Keeneland Concours a few times.  Fantastic event that anyone and everyonein the hobby can enjoy.

 

Not that this is any ground breaking revelation, but Concours' are about perfection and recognition-competing against others, while the AACA is about correctness and pride-competing against yourself.  There is some overlap of course, but that's the gist of it.

 

I love them both because they both have outstanding vehicles.

[alsancle]

Every Concours is different while AACA events have consistency from show to show.

 

You have Pebble Beach at one end and other shows that use the world "Concours" in the title but are glorified cruise nights.   Each show has its own standards, judges, awards, venue, etc.   They have nothing in common with each other besides being independent events where a bunch of cars collect.

Edited July 30, 2018 by alsancle (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

I don't think I would refer to Amelia Island as a "glorified cruise night".

[Steve Moskowitz]

Just came back from the St. John Concours and here are a few examples of some of the cars these events bring out....not too shabby!!  We are involved in The Elegance at Hershey and it is as true a concours as you can get with 75 carefully curated cars on the lawn of the Hotel Hershey.  We have donated close to a $1,000,000 to charity as well.  There is plenty of room for these type of events and our AACA style shows as well. 

 

Jeff, agreed...Amelia is a top notch concours and one that I look forward to each year.

[Matt Harwood]

1 hour ago, cxgvd said:

Here is an interesting item which has no solution I can think of.  I am restoring a 1915 car and I use a local well known restoration company which I also work for part time,  Friday, I bought in my fenders for some small repair and sandblasting before priming and painting.  The skirts below the top of the front fender are not even in height, they wave up and down just a few millimeters but definitely noticeable.  If it was a concours restoration the original shoddy workmanship would be cut out and fixed.  If I was up for an award with the AACA against another properly restored car I would come out second best.  We left the skirts as is because it is cheaper and we felt it was the correct thing to do, I don't expect to be invited to a concours and will be happy with a Junior award.  When sitting on the showroom floor the cars were not great.

 

Regards, Gary

 

 

Unfortunately, the only reliable baseline these days is perfection. What they were then is completely irrelevant now. I have some NOS bumper guards for my '41 Buick and they look little better than silver spray paint. Correct, but I'd get laughed off the show field if I used them. People expect a restored car to be a perfect car and all those mass-produced defects and errors should be erased. Unfortunately, I can't think of a better standard, otherwise you're trying to judge perfect cars against imperfect cars of different types and there's no baseline. Corvettes, yes, certainly, "perfectly imperfect" is the standard. But judging Corvettes against Corvettes is fine because they're relatively consistent with a broad knowledge base. Judging a 'teens Case against a Maxwell against a Cartercar is something else entirely.

 

Speaking of Corvettes, I had a guy come in to see a '67 Corvette convertible I have. It has just 34,000 original miles and has never been apart. No question a very correct car, although it has been repainted (while assembled). He was unhappy with the door fit, which is typical for 1967 Corvettes that haven't been "fixed" during a restoration. Couldn't get over it the fact that the trailing edges were about 1/8" too low compared to the body. I told him that was how they were built and that they were often haphazardly assembled. He said, "I find that very hard to believe." Heck, you'll get dinged in NCRS competition if you make it so the bonding strips aren't visible through the paint or if you chrome the backs of the bumpers. People don't even remember what the cars were like when they were new, how can we expect them to judge them appropriately when they have "as new" defects?

 

We've bought into the illusion that the factory built perfection and anything less is unacceptable. Meanwhile, JD Power is still counting defects per car and the best new cars still score more than 10 defects per car. Perfect isn't real, but everyone thinks it is. And so here we are.

 

PS: I agree with Steve; I think the St. John's Concours is one of the very best and it's very accessible and modestly priced all around. If you want to attend a true high-end concours with exceptional cars and some star power, but do it on a blue collar budget, that's the one. A Bugatti Royale on the show field. Wow!