Fred Rawling Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 The vacuum gauge reads 11 inches steady. The chart says that I have a valve timing problem. After setting valve lash static and then in motion, adjusting the carb, new points, condenser and coil with no change, I pulled the timing case cover and found that when the mark on the cam gear and on the crank gear are pointing to each other, the timing mark on the flywheel is not in the window of the flywheel cover. It looks like the flywheel is on wrong. Opinions please. This is a 1928 Buick. When I first put it together, I had 16 inches of mercury steady and drove it on the freeway at 45 mph until I had the problem. What would maker it change? Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmover Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Fred have you had the flywheel off of the engine?When I put my 25 back together I saw a line up mark on the flywheel.I couldn't find any thing to line it up with but when I installed the flywheel straight up it put the lineup marks in the site hole.when I lined up the timing gears the timing was on the mark.I don't know what would have made it change though since you were able to drive it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert_25-25 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Fred, Kind of in reverse. You should line up the 0 mark on the flywheel, then the mark on the crankshaft gear should point perpendicular to the camshaft gear. What does it look like if the flywheel in on zero? Hugh 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oregon Desert model 45 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Fred Gear Timing marks don't line up when the flywheel timing mark is visible in the window. They are off by 2 teeth. see Plate No 26 in the maintenance book. Below photo of my timing gears was taken when flywheel mark was visible in the window, but gear marks not quite lined up yet. I added a pencil mark to the midpoint on the fiber gear, which is why the dimple is 180 degrees away. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 In the photo the crank is off by one turn. In any case, the 2 dots must be aligned regardless of where TDC is . The gear on the crank determines valve timing and it cant go on wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 And, when the marks align, it will probably be at TDC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert_25-25 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) Fred, A low reading could also be a vacuum leak - like at the vacuum tank. Disconnect the vacuum line to the vacuum tank. Put the gauge on the disconnected connection on the intake manifold. Let it run on the gasoline amount in the vacuum tank. Perhaps the vent in the vacuum tank is not closing and you are loosing vacuum to the atmosphere. You have timing gears, and if they are good, nothing has moved in the timing mechanism. Consider doing a compression check, or better yet a leak down test just to verify that all the cylinders are good, but if the needle is steady, that indicates that it is likely not an isolated cylinder issue. Hugh Edited July 17, 2018 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Rawling Posted July 17, 2018 Author Share Posted July 17, 2018 I have to buy a battery tomorrow. I killed this one. I put the flywheel on with the cylinder head off so I saw # 1 piston at the top of the stroke. I will double check by pulling #1 plug and putting the flywheel marks in line with the mark on the housing, What I am getting from the response is that when the "0" mark on the flywheel is lined up with the mark on the housing the timing marks on the cam and crank will line up. With the timing mark on the flywheel at 17 degrees, the marks on the cam and crank will not be lined up. Now the engine sits with the cam and crank marks lined up. Tomorrow I will see what is in the flywheel window. I noticed that with the timing marks on the cam and crank gears lined up,, my distributor rotor has just passed # 1 and the flywheel mark has passed the timing mark on the flywheel housing. That fits because the rotor is under #1 at 17 degrees BTDC. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 On many Buicks, it is possible to put the flywheel on wrong. When you attach the flywheel, be sure that #1piston is at TDC and the flywheel timing mark is also at TDC. I have seen many where the flywheel is bolted on wrong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert_25-25 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Fred, Also to be clear, there is a 1-6 mark on the flywheel with a line, and nearby, a 7 degree mark with a line. The 1-6 mark is the one that you use to line up at TDC. Also notice that on the crankshaft gear, you are using the dot punch for the timing gear alignment and not the line as Kevin Roner pointed out in an earlier forum post. Also being a 4 cycle engine, you may need to give the flywheel another complete rotation to align the marks as you hit TDC twice to complete the 4 cycle process. Hugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Rawling Posted July 25, 2018 Author Share Posted July 25, 2018 So after a week of procrastination, I think that I have verified that my flywheel is on correctly. The 1-6 lined is lined up with the mark on the flywheel cover window. The # 1 piston is at TDC verified with a stick on the top of the piston as I rotated the crankshaft. I did notice that there is a small distance where the crankshaft moves and the piston does not move or is that my imagination??? or is there a problem somewhere??? Here is a photo of the timing marks on the cam and crank. After all the time I have spent on this I am feeling insecure and want someone to tell me that I am doing it right. -- or wrong. If it is correct, I can put it together and start looking for a vacuum leak that Hugh suggested. Fred 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 All, I am going to be taking the engine out of my '16 a little later this Summer for a total rebuild. I think that I heard someone along the line say that there was one of the crankshaft bolts that was a larger diameter so that the flywheel can only go on one way. Is there anything to that? It would make sense if that were the case. I remember my friend, the late Del Carpenter, telling me that to time one of these 6-Cylinder engines was really quite simple. He told me that on cylinder #1 right after the intake valve closes, the piston will be at top dead center, the distributor rotor will be in the #1 position to the cap and a person goes from there. He told me that by doing this, things will be close enough to get the engine started. I know one thing for sure - I will be going through this from start to finish and I will be darn good at it when I'm through. I say this because something tells me that it will be a little bit harder than talking my way through it. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert_25-25 Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 (edited) Fred, If you are on TDC #1, and the 1-6 is on the line, that says the flywheel is on correctly. I also looked at my crankshaft gear, and it only has a single line on it, so you may not have a line and a dot like Kevin's gear. I also noticed in the Cam and Crank gear drawing that TDC is not when the 2 marks are directly across from each other at the closest point, but that they are merely showing that the teeth should engage when they come closest to each other. Your teeth are a couple teeth away from the closest point in the rotation. I will note that the drawing shows the marks about 2 teeth away, and yours is maybe 3 teeth away. I am guessing still OK at this point. Here is valve timing from the manual. The marks below the 1-6 does not show on my flywheel or yours, but it is in the shop manual. It looks like it is barely a tooth below the 1-6 mark and the inlet valve should be opening. "Inlet O" must be an early imogi for inlet opening. I would check the valve timing this way. Sorry that it means pulling the valve cover or the side plate to verify. I would probably pull the valve cover, and rock the rocker arm, and it would be at the moment that you loose the gap that you would normally set with a feeler gauge on the #1 inlet valve. If that small distance in the rotation and "no movement" is on TDC, then that is normal. I am thinking that would be the crankshaft passing at it's high point when the piston changes direction, and I have noticed that before on other motors. My motor is at the machine shop, and I have not lined this up myself, just looking at the books and trying to understand the concept. I will have a lot of photos when I do line this up. Hugh Edited July 26, 2018 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 Terry, I dont know about the '16's but the flywheel on my '18 is on wrong, so it can be done. My '38 Roadmasters flywheel was on wrong too. I never could understand why Buick didnt have at least a dowel pin to correctly orient the flywheels. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Rawling Posted July 27, 2018 Author Share Posted July 27, 2018 Thanks to everyone., It is now on to looking for a vacuum leak. Bob's has vacuum tank springs. Mine were brittle and broke so that may be a part of my problem-- the vent valve not closing tight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert_25-25 Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 (edited) Fred and all, I have not worked on my vacuum tank yet, but I can already see a problem with the 2 valves in the lid. - The manifold vacuum valve appears to be working, but it would be nice to lap the valve to ensure a good seal. There are several pivots. All the pivot rods appear to be peened over. I am afraid of breaking the pot metal driving any pins out. Do people grind or file the end of the pivot rods to remove them? Which pivots are typically removed for servicing the two valves? Do they just drive out? - The J vent (atmospheric) valve. Is not working. Notice how it is not centered and the valve seems very loose. This valve seems to never close. Is there anything missing with this valve? I thought since Fred is replacing the springs, he needs to check the operation of these 2 valves. I just used a piece or rubber hose to put a little air pressure across the valves. One more thing. The paper gasket will seal the lid, but it seems something should be used on the bolt threads to keep them from leaking. In addition, since you are pulling the lid Fred, it would be a good idea to pull the bucket out, and ensure that the flapper valve is not varnished. Notice in the side view of the flapper valve that you can see a lot of varnish. The flapper valve is micarta so I was able to clean mine by just carefully scraping it with a razor blade. Do not remove the rivets. Hugh Edited July 27, 2018 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 Hugh, In your first photo, these springs were what were giving me the problems that my engine was experiencing. Once they were replaced with the proper tensioned ones. it was good. I was very fortunate that the pins and seats were OK and worked as they should. Also, in that photo, the gasket looks real crummy. There is a prime area for leakage. You do an excellent job with the photography and labeling the parts. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert_25-25 Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 (edited) OK More digging and understanding. The springs keep everything working by maintaining that the valves always work opposite of each other. One valve is closed while the other is open. Removing the 2 springs provides better access to the valves. I do not suggest removing any of the pivot pins. The vacuum inlet valve is like a carburetor needle and seat, and the atmospheric valve is like an engine valve and seat. I plan to put a small spot of fine engine valve grinding compound on each seat, rotate the valve a little with my fingers and trying to keep it straight, then washing it out with carburetor cleaner. The vacuum valve is accessible. I will need a toothpick to get valve grinding compound under the head of the vent valve seat. The last drawing was on the internet and shows the atmospheric valve well. Hugh Edited July 27, 2018 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Rawling Posted July 31, 2018 Author Share Posted July 31, 2018 My springs were short because they broke and I had to bend a loop to make a new hook. I have new ones coming from Bob's. I have worked on a few vacuum tanks but I did not think about the springs until I saw Terry's note about the springs To lap the valves, file off the swedge on the pin on the pivot. You can re secure it with a drop of solder so you do not have to hammer on the pin and break the pivot. With the arm loose, unsolder the thick washers on the 2 valves. But first take note of how much of the stem is sticking up through the washers. Chuck a light weight drill to the valve that is closed when it is in the down position. Use a light weight drill with some paste made from fine polishing compound or tooth past. Let the weight of the drill hold the valve down but support the drill so its total weight is not pulling on the valve. Do not rev up the drill, just on and off, on and off so you have good control. On the other valve, you have to push it toward the tank lid. I put a very light coat of perrmatex #2 on both sides of the gaskets. I have never put anything on the screws. Finally do not user teflon tape on the threads of anything you screw into a die cast part. Teflon is a lubricant and you can not feel how tight you are tightening the part. You could crack your diecast part. Also a friend that works at a Buick dealership told me that they do not user trflon on the fuel system. They do not want any teflon particles getting into the gas system to plug anything up. While the tank is apart, take the inner tank out in the sun light to look for pin holes. I had my tank cad plated. Then I soldered the holes. Solder loves cad plating Fred 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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