Carter BB-1 experience wanted

[alsfarms]

Does anyone here have experience with the later version of the Carter BB-1?  The carb. in question is held together with 6 retaining screws.  The top is cast of grey iron, the bottom is dies cast.  The older model of the BB-1 is held together with 3 retaining screw and is all cast iron.  How does the size of this  early all cast iron version of the Carter BB-1 compare with the later version I described above?

Al

Edited July 16, 2018 by alsfarms
information correction (see edit history)

[stakeside]

Believe these carbs were used up into the 50’s on commercial engine. I was told that the later versions have improvements and rebuild kits are available.

curious what carb you choose. I found this on e-bay.

 

[alsfarms]

Hello Stakeside,  Thanks for your posting.   The BB-1 series carburetor that I am dealing with a 289 SD.  I understand that this particular series carburetor has the largest through-put and is good for engines around 300 CID.  I have picked up a rebuild kit for it already and am ready to clean, break down, and rebuild.  The kit I have has the improved "Daytona" style needle and seat.  Does anyone have experience with that needle and seat design?  What should I watch for as I open up the carburetor?  Any practical information is greatly appreciated.

Al

[maok]

If you do a search for bb1 on this site you will find a comprehensive how to guide on rebuilding this carb. I have it on my pc somewhere but cant find it...lol

 

I also have the Daytona style of needle and seat (fuel valve), has worked well for me for years.

[keiser31]

2 hours ago, maok said:

If you do a search for bb1 on this site you will find a comprehensive how to guide on rebuilding this carb. I have it on my pc somewhere but cant find it...lol

 

I also have the Daytona style of needle and seat (fuel valve), has worked well for me for years.

There are these pages....

[maok]

No doubt, keiser is much better organiser than I. That is the one I was referring to.

[Spinneyhill]

 

[stakeside]

Looking information on the adjustment of lower valve for the BB-1 updraft carb. I believe this is metering jet that can be adjusted for engine based on it’s size. My DA6 is 208 cu in. What would be the adjustment.

the adjustment on the top one is 1 1/4 turns.

[alsfarms]

Does anyone have a parts carb. that they would be willing to sell the adjustable needle, identified by the red arrow above?  Mine is working but has the end broken off and that bothers me.

Al

[PFitz]

On ‎3‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 11:32 AM, stakeside said:

Looking information on the adjustment of lower valve for the BB-1 updraft carb. I believe this is metering jet that can be adjusted for engine based on it’s size. My DA6 is 208 cu in. What would be the adjustment.

the adjustment on the top one is 1 1/4 turns.

 

That's the high speed fuel needle. See the, "High Speed Adjustment" instructions on the last picture that Keiser31 posted 4 posts above yours. If the venturi is close to the correct size for your engine, then you use that needle to fine tune the fuel feed above idle speeds to suit your engine. Doesn't matter what other's set theirs to because it can vary,.... especially if that is not the original type carb used on your engine.

 

Paul  

[PFitz]

11 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

Does anyone have a parts carb. that they would be willing to sell the adjustable needle, identified by the red arrow above?  Mine is working but has the end broken off and that bothers me.

Al

 

 If there's enough needle valve stem sticking out past the hex packing nut, just cross drill and press another rod into it.  If it's broken off too close to the packing nut, silver solder, or braze the cross rod to the end of the stem.

 

Paul

[alsfarms]

Paul, Those are both good ideas.  I will probably redrill and install another cross rod unless someone has an extra.

Al

[John_Mereness]

On 3/17/2019 at 3:27 PM, stakeside said:

Believe these carbs were used up into the 50’s on commercial engine. I was told that the later versions have improvements and rebuild kits are available.

curious what carb you choose. I found this on e-bay.

 

I was always told used in such as Chevrolet Step Vans and step vans in general.  As a sidenote:  I have rarely ever found someone to be able to get them to work on a larger car such as a Packard, Franklin, or Stutz (they tend to just not be capable of proper high end speed range no matter what people get in way of throat size and ...)

[commander Dave]

Hi all, I have a BB -1 on my 1927 Studebaker Commander with Big Six engine. 354 cid. Had it rebuilt about 5 years ago and is good. Curious about the metering adjustment screw. Was told to turn out 3 times, but seem to have to fiddle with it time to time. Also, some times under full throttle it seems to starve for fuel and have to slow down for fuel to catch up. Line has been checked and has a recent float and seems to be set right.    Could this engine be to big for this carb?

  

Respectfully submitted ; Commander Dave

[carbking]

The largest O.E. application was a 265 CID.

 

Carter did suggest the 289s as a replacement for the 319 CID Standard 8 Packard. This was the largest engine of which I am aware that Carter suggested the BB-1 updraft.

 

Most were used on engines around 225 CID.

 

Dave - the bowl should NOT run out of fuel, the engine should run out of air.

 

There were four different orifice fuel valves used in the various BB Updrafts, depending on the engine size, and the type of fuel delivery. Some "rebuilders" either do not know this, or do not care.

 

Jon.

[commander Dave]

carbking; maybe what I'm experiencing is the carb running out of air. Never thought about that.  Also, it looks like this carb might be to small for this engine. Any idea what might be good on the Big six?  

Commander Dave

[carbking]

Dave - the Stromberg engineers calibrated a Stromberg SFM-3 as a replacement for the Big Six. Without pulling some prints, do no know what internal venturi size was used. Often, the SFM could be replaced with an SF; would need more research.

 

This carb was transferred from experimental status to production status, so evidently it was a fairly popular swap back in the day. Generally, this required a minimum sales number of 200 units.

 

Earlier, Stromberg calibrated a UX-3 (cross-flange) for the Big Six; however the UX-3 is pot metal, and I would not suggest this. The UX-3 superseded the OX-3 (cross-flange - brass), which might be an option.

 

Zenith also offered a number of engineered replacements, but they were size 3 series U (good carbs, but parts other than gaskets/fuel valves are made from unobtainium).

 

The Zenith U series was superseded by the Zenith 63 series,  a 63AW12 might be a consideration. Again, would have to do the research on the Stromberg to get the internal venturi size to use in the Zenith, or pull the prints on the Zenith U series.

 

As you have discovered, the physical size is important for the carb to bolt to the engine; but the flow characteristics are equally important to make the engine perform.

 

Jon.

[stakeside]

I replaced my Steward Detroit with a BB-1 and have not been able to start engine. I have set upper needle screw to 1 1/4 turns. Only other factors are to retart the spark, set choke and set throttle.

Do you normally set full choke as recommended for the Steward?

Do set throttle as recommended for the Steward?

I checked timing marks on the flywheel and set distributor.

[stakeside]

Found description of BB-1 carb operation at the “Carburetor Doctor” web site It answers all my questions.

[alsfarms]

Nice schematic drawing of the flow paths on the BB-1 Carbs.  I have a friend who runs an early design BB-1 on a "T" head engine of about 280 CID.  He is not a hot rodder and the carb. is adequate for his driving style.  I could not get a similar carb. to perform properly on a "T" head engine of 300 CID.  As a result, I hunted up the "Big Brother" of the  BB-1 line which is a 289SD.  This carb. should be better suited for an engine my size and will report back after I get the carb. kit installed and verify that all flow paths are clear and functioning.  Has anyone else struggled or had success with the Carter BB-1 carburetor?  Stakeside, what version of the BB-1 are you dealing with?

Al

[wmsue]

My Willys Whippet has a BB-1 and it works well. I haven't driven great distances yet but after getting the vacuum tank problems worked out I haven't had any problems.

My engine is only 35HP and 134 cu inch though.

 

Good Luck

[alsfarms]

Hello wmsue,  Do you still have the brass tag on your BB-1?  I am curious which one you used and what the original application could have been.  I am assuming that your BB-1 is all cast iron?

Al

[stakeside]

7 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Nice schematic drawing of the flow paths on the BB-1 Carbs.  I have a friend who runs an early design BB-1 on a "T" head engine of about 280 CID.  He is not a hot rodder and the carb. is adequate for his driving style.  I could not get a similar carb. to perform properly on a "T" head engine of 300 CID.  As a result, I hunted up the "Big Brother" of the  BB-1 line which is a 289SD.  This carb. should be better suited for an engine my size and will report back after I get the carb. kit installed and verify that all flow paths are clear and functioning.  Has anyone else struggled or had success with the Carter BB-1 carburetor?  Stakeside, what version of the BB-1 are you dealing with?

Al

 

I have later model carb. There is a number stamped as 544.

It has a cast iron top also and there are no tags.

[alsfarms]

Hello Stakeside, Have you scouted out your BB-1 to see what kit is proper for it, located on Carb. Kings website or elsewhere?  I am not familiar with the number 544.  It is stamped in and not cast into the top cover?  I used to be very nonchalant about the brass tags on carbs.  NOT ANY MORE!  I am so happy that the tag has survived and is still on my 289SD.  The character of my carb. is easy to research.  Did you buy your carb. rebuilt and ready to run?  I bought my carb. as complete, free movement and ready for me to kit it.  I have the rebuild kit and am waiting for the sonic cleaner to arrive before I do anything.  Sometime during the rebuild process, I need to make a repair to the end of the main jet needle stem.

Al

[wmsue]

No brass tag.

Not original to my car.

I remember reading somewhere that the BB-1 was an aftermarket carb that was used on many cars. An upgrade to the original Tillotson carb on the Whippet.

[carbking]

This link might be interesting:

 

Carter BB-1 universal updraft carburetors

 

Jon

[alsfarms]

How have you plumbed in the drain port on the bottom of the intake horn?  I understand that tubing loop is to keep the carb. from dripping gas down on the ground right after you shut of the car.  Is that assumption correct?

Al

[carbking]

Often it is plumbed through a "drip loop" to a vacuum port just above the throttle plate.

 

Jon.

[stakeside]

Does the “drip loop” eliminate a vacuum leak. Not sure how the device functions.

[carbking]

Not a vacuum leak. The use of the "drip loop" eliminates drips. Simply a loop fashioned from copper tubing below the carb connecting the air intake drain to a vacuum source. Used on marine carbs, primarily type YH, but can be used on anything.

 

Jon.

[alsfarms]

Who has got a picture of a completed "drip loop" installed on a BB-1?  Please post wo we can see one then understand how it stops a fuel drip after shutdown of a running engine.

Al

[stakeside]

Where is the excess fuel draining from on the BB—1 and how much should drain? If you have an continues dripping then there must be an internal problem. Maybe a check valve is open. Any ideas?

 

 

[alsfarms]

If I understand correctly, the leak after shutdown is from condensing of the raw fuel with no where to go but down.  The loop tube is just a holding device to keep the raw fuel from dripping on a hot exhaust pipe and will be sucked back in when started again VIA the vacuum port.  If I am wrong Carb King share your experience.

Al

[PFitz]

1 hour ago, alsfarms said:

If I understand correctly, the leak after shutdown is from condensing of the raw fuel with no where to go but down.  The loop tube is just a holding device to keep the raw fuel from dripping on a hot exhaust pipe and will be sucked back in when started again VIA the vacuum port.  If I am wrong Carb King share your experience.

Al

 All updrafts have some amount of fuel vapor wetting the vertical surfaces of the intake and carb above the throttle plate. When shut off that leaks down the carb throat and out the drain hole most updrafts have below the throttle plate.

 

With a gravity feed system, if the carb float needle and seat are  not leaking, it should only be about a teaspoon of fuel.  If the engine is very hot sometimes it turns to vapor before it can leak out of the carb. 

 

Paul 

Edited April 3, 2019 by PFitz (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Paul,  Do you have one of those return loops on a BB-1 that you have in use?

Al

[PFitz]

1 hour ago, alsfarms said:

Paul,  Do you have one of those return loops on a BB-1 that you have in use?

Al

 Al, no. I've worked on a lot of updraft carbs, and while all of them had a threaded drain hole in the carb base, below the throttle plate, there was no fitting there,.....  other than some have a square head 1/8 inch pipe plug closing off the drain hole.  I've never seen one with a loop of any kind.

 

However, I can see how a copper pipe formed into a loop might hold the small amount of gasoline that normally drips out of an updraft carb when the engine is shut off. And being that it's plumbed into the base of the carb inlet/choke horn the slight pressure drop inside the inlet would draw any remain gas into the engine with the next start up.

 

Paul

Edited April 4, 2019 by PFitz (see edit history)

[carbking]

The first time I saw the drip loop was on a marine type YH (sidedraft) Carter. I have since seen a few on updraft Carter marine use carbs (the amount of marine carbs I have done is quite small in comparison to those for cars and trucks). Leaks on closed-bilge marine applications are frowned on. MANY side-draft carbs were used on marine application; and Chrysler, Gray, and Owens all also used the BB updraft into the late 1960's.

 

I have always tried to look at methods engineers use to solve problems. This seemed to be a good solution, so I have been recommending this "fix" to automobile enthusiasts for probably 30~35 years.

 

It works.

 

Basically one forms a small loop from copper tubing, with one end connecting to the threaded carburetor drain (this is normally 1/8 pipe thread), and the other end connected to a vacuum source. When the engine is shut down, the small amount of leakage accumulates in the drip tube, and is pulled into the engine at the next starting of the engine. Yes, there is a MINOR vacuum leak; however the drain hole is so small as to make this negligible.

 

Obviously, this thing has a small volume, and will not compensate for a badly leaking carb; but for correcting the shut off leak caused by the politically correct fuel, it works!

 

EDIT: I learned a long time ago that our government, when passing legislation, often violates the "law of unintended consequences". Our current fuel fits into this category. It is for us do devise work-arounds, as we have a insufficient number of voices to be heeded. This is one such work-around.

 

Jon.

Edited April 4, 2019 by carbking (see edit history)

[PFitz]

To go along with what Jon said.

 

I searched for videos of  a marine engine I used to have. A Universal "Atomic Four" marine engine. They were a very common motor on  small inboard power boats and sail boats on the Great South Bay, back when I grew up on Long Island's South Shore.  I had two boats with that engine back in the early 70's. One an open work boat that looked like the boat in the movie, "The African Queen". The other was a 24 ft cabin cruiser built as a high school shop project by the Forman of the boatyard I worked in back then. Both built sometime in the late 40's or early 1950's. Neither engine's carb had that drain loop.

 

However, looking for videos of Atomic Four engines, I see they have what Jon is talking about..

 

Here's a You Tube video showing the drain loop. If you stop it at 13 seconds into the video, you'll see the thin drain tube coming from under the carburetor, up on the right of the fuel bowl, and then it's plumbed into the intake manifold.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=yfp-t-s&p=atomic+four+marine+engines#id=4&vid=974cae0ec654a40d8b8d57ca6978a480&action=view

 

There are other videos on You Tube showing other Atomic Fours with the same loop.

 

For an automotive updraft carb application, such as a BB-1 with adjustable idle air and main fuel jets to help adjust for the slight vacuum leak leaning of the air/fuel ratio (if that's even necessary ?), I don't see why a similar system wouldn't work as long as some opening in the line is kept small so that there is not a large vacuum leak created.

 

Paul

 

 

Edited April 4, 2019 by PFitz (see edit history)

[stakeside]

Thanks to Jon for responding to our inquires.

[alsfarms]

I echo the thanks for those that reply and share knowledge on the BB-1 carbs.  I would like to have a bit more input into the new design needle and seat (Daytona).  Could someone suggest any noticeable differences between the conventional needle and seat and also the flat faced design?    Will the life expectancy be the same or better for the Daytona design?

Al