toomuchvinyl Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 After reading the threads "Quick Ratio Steering Box" and "63 Riv Steering Box Replacement", I decided to try one of (telriv) Tom Telesco's steering boxes in my '64. This has been the single greatest improvement that has been made to my car since I've owned it. Some time ago, I had the center link and other front end components replaced as needed as well as the rear track bar bushings. At that time I also has the alignment set to the positive caster recommendation that I'd seen here in the forum. Those things made a marked improvement to the handling of the car but I was still disappointed in the vague steering response. The new steering box has resolved that final issue and I could not be happier. I still have standard shocks on the car as they were not worn out by any means and finances dictate that I cannot spring for a set of the Bilstiens at this time but I'm so pleased with the improvement that I'm not missing them. Maybe a set of those and some new springs someday, but in the mean time I'm well satisfied. What I'd call the "Driving Experience" really hasn't changed. The steering effort is the same and as Red Riviera Bob expressed it, the character of the ride and steering are still 100% first gen Riviera. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 Do you know the specifics of this box: constant or variable ratio, and the actual ratio(s)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70rivme Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 9 hours ago, KongaMan said: Do you know the specifics of this box: constant or variable ratio, and the actual ratio(s)? Yeah, what @KongaMan said and does anyone know if the same box will fit my '70? I have what I would call lazy steering and would love an improvement like @toomuchvinyl is describing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toomuchvinyl Posted July 6, 2018 Author Share Posted July 6, 2018 10 hours ago, KongaMan said: Do you know the specifics of this box: constant or variable ratio, and the actual ratio(s)? I don't know the actual specifications of the box other than the number of turns lock to lock which is 2.5. I'll have to defer to @telriv for more details. 28 minutes ago, 70rivme said: Yeah, what @KongaMan said and does anyone know if the same box will fit my '70? I have what I would call lazy steering and would love an improvement like @toomuchvinyl is describing. Brad, I don't know what the range of model years was that this steering box was used. I did see a reply in the "Quick Steering Ratio Box" (posts #66, #67) that it would fit a '68. Again, Tom @telriv could answer this question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 TO ALL, This is a constant ratio box. It will FIT ALL full size cars that take a model "808" Saginaw steering box (which the Riv. is a full size). This includes some JEEP. FORD & MOPAR applications from about '62 to about 1976 as long as the box mounts inside the frame rails & NOT OUTSIDE. As stated this is a BOLT-IN SWAP. NO adapters nec. new hoses etc. nec. Priced MUCH MORE COMPETATIVELY than others available. Tom T. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 Thanks for that info — but what’s the ratio? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 KongaMan, Since many of us here don't know your 1st. name we will just have to go by your signature. I feel being on a 1st. name basis is much more personal. We DON'T have to know where you live although it would be helpful if someone was close by & needed any kind of assistance. How did I know you would ask that question??? Anyho's Since you like facts, figures, percentages, degrees, angles & ALL the other assorted things you always (not to offend you in ANY way in many cases good things) seem to come up with I will say figure it out. All I will say is the length of the pitman arm plays a big role in the ratio & ALL the "808" boxes installed in MANY different vehicles most have different length pitman arms. The MOST IMPORTANT thing here is the turns lock to lock as no matter what the ratio it's still 2.5 turns lock-lock. Tom T. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, telriv said: All I will say is the length of the pitman arm plays a big role in the ratio & ALL the "808" boxes installed in MANY different vehicles most have different length pitman arms. The MOST IMPORTANT thing here is the turns lock to lock as no matter what the ratio it's still 2.5 turns lock-lock. With all due respect, the pitman arm has nothing to do with the ratio of the gearbox. That ratio is determined solely by the relationship between the rotation of the input shaft and the rotation of the sector shaft. To put a finer point on it, ratio is far more important than lock-to-lock when determining how the box performs. Indeed, lock-to-lock by itself tells us absolutely nothing about how the car will react to a given turn of the wheel. For this box, the input is 2.5 turns; that's 900°. For the standard gearbox for these cars, the output is ~70°. The ratio of the two is 12.8. That's a pretty frickin' quick ratio. Given that's quicker than the contemporaneous 15:1 quick ratio box, and as quick as the 12.7:1 boxes used on sports cars, one cannot help but wonder exactly what's going on. Are there internal stops that limit the output? Let's suppose the sector shaft rotation is limited to 60°. That would provide a ratio of 15:1 with 2.5 turns -- but parallel parking, u-turns, and the like would suffer dramatically from the decreased turning radius. Or suppose we restrict it further, to 50°. Now we have a ratio of 18:1. Three different boxes, three different ratios, three different levels of performance, but the same lock-to-lock. Clearly that's not the whole story. If this box offers the full range of movement and has a quicker ratio than any factory box or anything offered by the myriad rebuilders, that's something. But if it's compromised in some way (e.g. turning radius) that's something else. Might not be a dealbreaker, but it's still something that should be part of a comprehensive description, no? Edited July 7, 2018 by KongaMan (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 The only stops that are limited are the built in stops of the vehicle. Time for others to report their experiences. OR, better yet buy one & find out. Then you can do ALL the testing & theories you want until your hearts content. THINK AGAIN ABOUT PITMAN ARM LENGTH & THE ROLE IT PLAYS IN THE OVERALL SHEME OF THINGS. But, then again I'm sure you'll find something to knock or complain about. ALL I'm trying to do is help those out there that would like to upgrade & improve what they ALREADY have. I just finished a '65 Riv. GS yesterday with the H2 option, faster ratio 15-1 ratio & he is EXTREMELY pleased with the outcome. Again, just my thoughts. Tom T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, telriv said: THINK AGAIN ABOUT PITMAN ARM LENGTH & THE ROLE IT PLAYS IN THE OVERALL SHEME OF THINGS. I've thought about it plenty. The question is not the overall scheme of things; it is the box itself. The pitman arm doesn't have any more to do with the ratio of the box than does the diameter of the steering wheel. To wit: not a thing. Which is probably why every rebuilder out there uses ratio as the primary descriptor and differentiator: because the ratio is determined solely by the internal components of the box. This would seem to be a pretty simple mathematical exercise: a ratio is the relationship between two numbers. If you know any two of those numbers, you can calculate the third. If you know only one, you know nothing of the others. And so it is here: "2.5 turns" tells us nothing about either the ratio or the output travel. If you've got the same travel as the standard box and 2.5 turns, you've got a ratio <13:1. If you've got 2.5 turns and a 15:1 ratio, your U-turns become 3-point turns. If you've got the same travel and a 15:1 ratio, you need 3 turns. Where am I wrong? Let's look at a similar situation. Suppose you need a new rear end for your car. A guy says he has one for you that's a drop-in fit. You ask "What's the ratio?". He says, "It depends on the transmission." You gonna buy that rear end based on that? Edited July 7, 2018 by KongaMan (see edit history) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 But the length of the pitman arm does have an effect on how quickly the front wheels will go from full left to full to fight and back. A 2 inch arm moving 90° only moves about 3 inches. A 2 foot arm moving 90° moves about 3 feet. Theres a lot of difference between moving a spindle 3 inches or 3 feet. I know these figures are not representative of a cars front end geometry but they do provide a visual picture of how length effects travel. The throw on a crankshaft determined the stroke of an engine, put rod length effects output. Kind of the same principle. If it works, don't question it. ? if you like it, enjoy it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 1 hour ago, RivNut said: But the length of the pitman arm does have an effect on how quickly the front wheels will go from full left to full to fight and back. A 2 inch arm moving 90° only moves about 3 inches. A 2 foot arm moving 90° moves about 3 feet. Theres a lot of difference between moving a spindle 3 inches or 3 feet. I know these figures are not representative of a cars front end geometry but they do provide a visual picture of how length effects travel. Absolutely true, but the effect of the pitman arm is independent of the gearbox. You’ll note that the FSM specifies both the aggregate ratio of the entire steering system and the ratio of just the box. As no one is talking about changing pitman arms or any other steering components (are they?), it is the ratio of the box itself which is of interest and will determine the change in steering response. On a more general note, how can one speak of a “quick ratio” box while refusing to specify the ratio? “2.5 turns” is not a ratio any more than “Yankees 6” is a final score. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 Thank you Ed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 What about the loose nut behind the wheel? Lol... Tom 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 A friend of mine and I used to meet for dinner on Tuesday evenings at a restaurant that was usually almost empty when were were there. We would have a leisurely dinner and take about an hour and a half discussing a wide range of scientific and computer related topics. The waitresses were very good at stopping by to keep our coffee cups filled and would catch bits of our conversations. Usually they stood and talked between trips to our table. One evening a very young girl topped off our coffee and asked "Are you really rocket scientists?" Interesting how those memories just come to mind. Bernie 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbinator Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 (edited) On 7/5/2018 at 11:08 PM, toomuchvinyl said: After reading the threads "Quick Ratio Steering Box" and "63 Riv Steering Box Replacement", I decided to try one of (telriv) Tom Telesco's steering boxes in my '64. This has been the single greatest improvement that has been made to my car since I've owned it. Some time ago, I had the center link and other front end components replaced as needed as well as the rear track bar bushings. At that time I also has the alignment set to the positive caster recommendation that I'd seen here in the forum. Those things made a marked improvement to the handling of the car but I was still disappointed in the vague steering response. The new steering box has resolved that final issue and I could not be happier. I still have standard shocks on the car as they were not worn out by any means and finances dictate that I cannot spring for a set of the Bilstiens at this time but I'm so pleased with the improvement that I'm not missing them. Maybe a set of those and some new springs someday, but in the mean time I'm well satisfied. What I'd call the "Driving Experience" really hasn't changed. The steering effort is the same and as Red Riviera Bob expressed it, the character of the ride and steering are still 100% first gen Riviera. Sir, I’m in the boat you were in. I put Bilstein’s on and the rebuilt steering box I got from Tom Telesco. Measurable improvement at low speed up to 60 mph. I took a round trip 660 mile drive in my 63 Riv on Interstate 80. The road is in good shape. At higher speeds the car did want to track straight. The car would drift out of its track. I’m replacing track bar bushings and sway bar bushings Tom Telesco recommended. Also, I’m going for the same alignment specs you have. Thank you for the report! Red Riviera Bob 05/07/2020. I neglected to write about my correction regarding the car tracking. i did not tighten the bolts that hold the steering box to the frame. Once the bolts were tightened everything was fine. Edited June 7, 2020 by Turbinator (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC1968Riviera Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Red Riviera Bob said: Sir, I’m in the boat you were in. I put Bilstein’s on and the rebuilt steering box I got from Tom Telesco. Measurable improvement at low speed up to 60 mph. I took a round trip 660 mile drive in my 63 Riv on Interstate 80. The road is in good shape. At higher speeds the car did want to track straight. The car would drift out of its track. I’m replacing track bar bushings and sway bar bushings Tom Telesco recommended. Also, I’m going for the same alignment specs you have. Thank you for the report! Red Riviera Bob Can someone chime in the "alignment specs"? I am putting in a new custom made adjustable trac bar this week in my 68. It will have rubber bushings. I also had the front suspension rebuilt, (tie rod ends, tr sleeves, control arm bushings, sway bar bushings, ball joints and new center link). I also put new shock absorbers on it last summer, both front and back. I have not yet replaced the front or rear coil springs. I have heard the front end alignment should be slightly modified when new trac bar bushings are installed. What are the recommended alignment settings? Edited July 11, 2018 by NC68Riviera (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 NOT TRACK BAR BUSHINGS BUT RADIAL TIRES!!! You want to go as far positive on CASTER that you can go WITHOUT making modifications. ( but mods are fairly easy) Usually will top out at around +3 degrees, but more if possible safely. Camber around 0 degrees +or-1/4 degree. Toe in the middle of the stock specs. Tom T. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC1968Riviera Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 15 hours ago, telriv said: NOT TRACK BAR BUSHINGS BUT RADIAL TIRES!!! You want to go as far positive on CASTER that you can go WITHOUT making modifications. ( but mods are fairly easy) Usually will top out at around +3 degrees, but more if possible safely. Camber around 0 degrees +or-1/4 degree. Toe in the middle of the stock specs. Tom T. Tom, Thanks for this info. I am having the front end aligned on my 68 this week so this info will come in handy at the shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbinator Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 (edited) Gents, SOHCAHTOA. Who remembers that one? While some of you are figuring out the angle to the dangle apply your high powered math skills and let us all know about Mr.Pittman. ?? Just funning of course. The gear box I got from Tom T improved the handling significantly AFTER it was revealed I did not have the bolts holding the steering box on the car tight enough. I torqued the 3 bolts to 70 lbs.and the car tracks much better. Lesson learned is I need to use a torque wrench more often at this stage of the game. I want to make sure I don’t kill myself because my steering bolts came loose. RRB Edited July 13, 2018 by Red Riviera Bob Words left out (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 Sine Opposite Hypotenuse Cosine Adjacent Hypotenuse Tangent Opposite Adjacent ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
39mm Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 On 7/11/2018 at 12:41 PM, telriv said: NOT TRACK BAR BUSHINGS BUT RADIAL TIRES!!! You want to go as far positive on CASTER that you can go WITHOUT making modifications. ( but mods are fairly easy) Usually will top out at around +3 degrees, but more if possible safely. Camber around 0 degrees +or-1/4 degree. Toe in the middle of the stock specs. Tom T. What is the benefit of this? What is the price for your constant ratio gear box? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70rivme Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 3 hours ago, RivNut said: Sine Opposite Hypotenuse Cosine Adjacent Hypotenuse Tangent Opposite Adjacent ? That's funny, looked familiar when i saw the post. Thanks for the reminder Ed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbinator Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 On 7/13/2018 at 8:04 PM, RivNut said: Sine Opposite Hypotenuse Cosine Adjacent Hypotenuse Tangent Opposite Adjacent ? On 7/14/2018 at 12:01 AM, 70rivme said: Ed, 100% correct ! Well done, not well finished, but well done. Get the fork. One of your packages came today. It was a small package with all the right stuff. Many thanks. RRB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 59 minutes ago, Red Riviera Bob said: Ed, 100% correct ! Well done, not well finished, but well done. Get the fork. One of your packages came today. It was a small package with all the right stuff. Many thanks. RRB How about "Some old hippy caught another hippy tripping on acid" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 10 hours ago, Red Riviera Bob said: Ed, 100% correct ! Well done, not well finished, but well done. Get the fork. One of your packages came today. It was a small package with all the right stuff. Many thanks. RRB I guess I'll have to finish it for you then. Sine = opposite / hypotenuse Cosine = adjacent / hypotenuse Tangent = opposite / adjacent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbinator Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 On 7/13/2018 at 8:04 PM, RivNut said: Sine Opposite Hypotenuse Cosine Adjacent Hypotenuse Tangent Opposite Adjacent ? On 7/14/2018 at 12:01 AM, 70rivme said: Ed, 100% correct ! Well done, not well finished, but well done. Get the fork. One of your packages came today. It was a small package with all the right stuff. Many thanks. RRB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbinator Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Ok, maybe I went too fast and confused myself before I got done. sine is opposite over hypotenuse cosine is adjacent over hypotenuse tangent is opposite over adjacent. There I have it SOHCAHTOA. You had it as well. Discussions regarding higher math and statistics always shut me up quick. Unless a person can do the calculations or has solid information from credible sources that built the thing you are wasting your time talking to me. I studied a lot of math, algebra, plane & solid geometry and trig. And I was not very good at any of the stuff. But, I was good enough to know a given and what had to be proven. Setting up the equation was a disaster. I had a devil of a time getting the equation set up. Proving the thing was much easier. RRB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbinator Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 11 hours ago, RivNut said: How about "Some old hippy caught another hippy tripping on acid" Would not be the first time. I can say with certainty I played too much football without a helmet. true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Red Riviera Bob said: Would not be the first time. I can say with certainty I played too much football without a helmet. true. Did you get the SOHCAHTOA in the Hippy statement? ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbinator Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 I did not. All I can remember is SIHCAHTOA was a female Native American Indian. RRB 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OIB63 Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 Tom where can I buy your steering box? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 Directly from myself Tom T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbinator Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 Gents, driving the 63 Riv I bought in May 2016 was exactly as I expected and maybe more. The boulevard ride The Riv gave was more like flying an airplane. I was ok with the steering and ride at least for a period of time. I decided to maintain the suspension and put in new rubber bushings on the front sway bars, track bar, replacement gas shocks, and a rebuilt steering box based on Tom Telesco’s recommendations. The steering box was not too hard to put on for an old man because I had a little Help guiding the spline in the rag joint. Use a torque wrench to 70lbs on the bolts that hold steering box on the frame. Lastly, I got the four wheel alignment I requested at my tire shop. I told the alignment ( who has been at the same shop,for 30 yrs.) tech I would like for him to use the rear axle as the focal point for the center of the front end alignment. The tech gave me all the positive he could on the Camber, .26 for Toe In, and between 0 +- 1/4. Bottom line - the steering wheel stays straight going down the road. I do not have to work to steer the car. The front tires feel solidly placed on the road and I now feel Like I have a real boulevard ride. No more feeling of flying an airplane while driving the Riviera. The rebuild of the 808 Saginaw box, new bushings, new shocks have made SIGNIFICANT difference in steering, handling, and ride. Many of you on the forum have helped with your genuinely good tips. Tom Telesco walked me through the whole project. RRB 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted August 4, 2018 Share Posted August 4, 2018 Anyone else looking to "step up"??? Tom T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbinator Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 In summary my 63 Riviera steering was converted from a feeling like I was flying an air plane to a feeling the front two tires were on the road. Significant improvement came with the following: replaced all 4 shocks, replac3d sway bar bushings in the front with neoprene rubber, same for track bar, rebuilt replacement steering box I got from Tom Telesco ( I don’t know the ratio ) , but the steering wheel turns 2 1/2 times to go to one side. New front end four wheel alignment. Surprisingly, I did all the work myself short of the front end alignment. Rides just like what I think a Riviera should. Doesn’t get any better than that. Red Riviera Bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC1968Riviera Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 20 hours ago, Red Riviera Bob said: In summary my 63 Riviera steering was converted from a feeling like I was flying an air plane to a feeling the front two tires were on the road. Significant improvement came with the following: replaced all 4 shocks, replac3d sway bar bushings in the front with neoprene rubber, same for track bar, rebuilt replacement steering box I got from Tom Telesco ( I don’t know the ratio ) , but the steering wheel turns 2 1/2 times to go to one side. New front end four wheel alignment. Surprisingly, I did all the work myself short of the front end alignment. Rides just like what I think a Riviera should. Doesn’t get any better than that. Red Riviera Bob I have upgraded my 68 in every way you did except for the steering box. Replacing the worn out front suspension bushings alone seems to have improved my steering "feel" and responsiveness quite a bit. I am adding putting one of Mr. Telesco's steering boxes on my short list of future projects. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychostang Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 Tom: I sent you a pm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbinator Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 On 7/11/2018 at 10:43 AM, Red Riviera Bob said: Sir, I’m in the boat you were in. I put Bilstein’s on and the rebuilt steering box I got from Tom Telesco. Measurable improvement at low speed up to 60 mph. I took a round trip 660 mile drive in my 63 Riv on Interstate 80. The road is in good shape. At higher speeds the car did want to track straight. The car would drift out of its track. I’m replacing track bar bushings and sway bar bushings Tom Telesco recommended. Also, I’m going for the same alignment specs you have. Thank you for the report! Red Riviera Bob Gents, one of my mechanic friends that guided the rebuilt 808 I got from TelRiv told me to torque the bolts that hold the steering box on the car to 70lbs. I tightened the bolts and neglected to revisit the bolts to torque. long story short the box was wiggling back and forth on the frame. I torqued the steering box to 70 lbs. Now, I put on new rubber bushings on the sway and track bar. I got front end aligned like TelRiv recommended. My steering box takes 2.5 turns lock to lock, before it took 4 turns lock to lock. The steering wheel sits right in the steering column and the feels like the front tires are firmly on the road. Trust me, the character of the boulevard ride is in my 63 Riviera 100%. I would recommend shocks you like, rubber replaced, rebuilt 808 Saginaw steering box from telriv and front end alignment. RRB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbinator Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 On 7/15/2018 at 2:11 PM, RivNut said: Did you get the SOHCAHTOA in the Hippy statement? ? Ed, finally got the hippie phrase on acid understood. Some say the “ plodders” make it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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