A window into the life of a car dealer

[zipdang]

Garage sales? I had two old wood stoves to sell. I priced them at 20.00 each or two for 10.00. That's how I price my garage sales and I agree, it makes for a lot of fun. Would I attempt to buy or sell a car ths way. No. I must admit though, that reading all of Matt's postings has been enjoyable and informative. Glad to hear from people with common sense, integrity, and knowledge.

[Dynaflash8]

14 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

I don't begrudge anyone getting into the hobby for a living--

doing what he loves full-time--and having to make profit. 

Nor do I, if the dealer is also a true antique/classic enthusiast.  I do know that Matt Harwood is such a person.  He has led club regions/chapters and I think been on the Board of CCCA at one time.  I know he goes on tours and participates in the hobby.  I also know him to talk to and that he has several cars of his own that he is very partial to.  I have almost bought two cars from him, but I haven't .  I was ready to buy one, but at the last minute he warned me off the car, because I wanted to do too much to it.  Besides, it was one of his "keepers" and that's a good thing.  The other car was something I wanted, but I didn't like that particular car.  I tried to talk myself into it but I couldn't, even though that particular kind of car isn't out there on the street corner.  I didn't have a painter to turn to (now I do).  I didn't have an upholsterer to turn to (now I do), and I had too many cars, had not sold my second home, received any settlement for what caused my Cancer  yet, and to be frank didn't have enough money.  At my age and in my situation I didn't want to borrow any money but I wanted a CCCA-recognized Classic.  Matt, I guess, took pity on me because he bargained on the one car that he personally liked, and still likes.  I actually think he may be going too upgrade it from something I read somewhere.  But, he had figured me out.  He knew I really didn't want that brand of car and was just scratching an itch.  At the last minute he told me he didn't think I would be satisfied with the car.  I had no knowledge of the brand, had never owned one of that brand among the near 75 cars I'd owned since 1955, and he was right.  The other car started out at a price I couldn't afford, plus I didn't like it, even though it was the type I really wanted.  When that car did sell for less money, and a number of those weights I mentioned had been lifted, although not all of them.  I had also made that mistake of asking an expert opinion which further screwed up my thinking.  In the end I bought a much better (I think), but lesser model of the same car (that had later made CCCA classic status, (something myself and others had worked on for years).  Now I'm doing what I always do; making it to my satisfaction, and I'll have far more money in it than it will ever be worth.  In the process I've learned one important lesson.  At 80, I'm going to enjoy that car, lose the money if I ever sell it, and not worry about the money.  I've grieved over selling that National Award winning 1939 Buick convertible when I got sick, for 70% of what it cost me to buy and restore.  Well, it's been through 3-4 dealerships now and never has been sold to a collector.  Now they are offering it for less 93% of what it cost to restore.  Still, the one who bought it from me was there when I needed somebody.  Just think, my 2017 Buick LaCrosse is only worth 56% of what it cost in Janurary.  Why get all hung up on that idea of "making money on an old car?"  Yes, it gets to me when a friends says "I never have lost money on any car".  Well, he likes only 55 Chevrolet convertibles.  I like what one other friend calls "those big, floppy old Buicks."  We only go around once.  In closing, remember, dealers know their business.  If they are good at what they do, they always get a lot more money for a car than Joe Average can ever do.

Edited July 6, 2018 by Dynaflash8 (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

13 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

 

Just for interest:

It's a 1916 Model 38 (wheelbase 140" instead

of 143" in the Model 48, and a smaller engine).

It's an older restoration still nice,

and I've driven it a lot.  No need to go to the

gym to build muscle when you're driving a

car like this!

 

 

 

Man, that's a great looking car! It's also now a CCCA Full Classic, if that matters. It would be a HUGE hit at any CCCA Grand Classic as the early cars haven't started showing up in large numbers yet. Love it!

[Dynaflash8]

This is off the subject, but when I was 13 I got every issue of MoTor Trend to read Robert Gottlieb's column, "Classic Comments".  I learned about Auburn, Duesenberg, Ruxton, Packard, etc.  My first car was a 16-year old 1939 Buick Special with dual sidemounts and factory leather interior.  I wrote to Gottlieb and asked if it was a "classic".  He didn't reply, but in 1956 his second book, "Classic and Special Interest Cars" he did mention a car like mine as a "special interest car".  So, as soon as I found out about AACA, I joined in 1962. 

Back in the 1960's ANTIQUE AUTOMOBILE Magazine ran article after article on cars like this Locomobile and others.  They were still finding them stored in barns and garages then, and the magazine was full of neat barn find pictures followed by pictures of the restorations.  The articles excited me.  Locomobile's were prominent in those articles.  I remember one article about the HAL, and now I can't remember what kind of car it was, but I think it was a Locomobile version.  I was never personally into cars of that vintage, but I loved the articles.  As a kid in his early 20's I couldn't even dream of affording a car like that.  But, I applied those people's experiences and restoration adaptations into the cars of the 30's that were, it seems, always a part of my being.  I was very active in the hobby in the late 1960s and early 1970s trying to get the 1936-1948 cars into a spot of appreciation in the hobby.  AACA has always, in my time, been the pinnacle club of the hobby.  Finally in 1974 AACA accepted all cars up to 1950 and changed their rules to 25 years old and older.  That was good, in my view; but in those impressionable days of the early 1960's, reading those articles on great cars I'd never heard of before like Locomobile, Peerless, HAL, etc. and others, were still wonderful times for me.  That's when I really was drawn, forever, into antique and classic car collecting.  To be associated with AACA and seeing it's dignified leaders of the time  in action gave me a respect, as a lover and collector of antique and classic cars (even though mine were not accepted as either at the time) that my father would not.  I guess you always want your father's approval.  He always told me, "if you don't stop fooling with those old junk cars, you will never amount to anything." 

Only when I sold my 1941 Buick Limited prize winner in 1981 and paid off my house did he offer any begrudging respect.  He told his friends, "my son actually found somebody crazier than he was and sold that car for big money."  Thank you AACA for the great association and the many friends I've made though the club over the years.

Edited July 6, 2018 by Dynaflash8 (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

Just a general observation, not a stereotype at all, but it seems like most of the hagglers I have met spawned from ancestral backgrounds of peoples whom thought they could take over the world.

 

Bernie

[Dynaflash8]

47 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

Just a general observation, not a stereotype at all, but it seems like most of the hagglers I have met spawned from ancestral backgrounds of peoples whom thought they could take over the world.

 

Bernie

Bernie, I "I don't mean no harm", but I can't make one bit of sense out of that statement.

[Dynaflash8]

So then First Born (aka Ben Bruce), what do you see that is "sad" in my response?

[plymouthcranbrook]

On 7/5/2018 at 11:09 AM, Bhigdog said:

When buying anything from an individual it is only common courtesy to bargain. Even if the asking price is what you are willing to pay and will finally pay it is common courtesy to bargain. If you readily and happily pay the asking price the seller will forever feel he priced the item too low and was taken advantage of. Be courteous and bargain. If the seller does accept your lower price he will feel he did as good as possible and so will you................Bob

My Father would not buy anything from an individual such as a car or even a lawn mower if he couldn't talk the person down.. He would walk away no matter how much he wanted it. he would even bargain in stores if he thought he could get a better deal.

[JV Puleo]

Flip side of the coin... I hate to haggle. When I absolutely have to, I'll say something like "what will you take". If I like it, I'll buy it. If not, I'll walk away. I also hate it when people do it to me. Years ago I had a good friend who owned a used bookstore. Everything was priced but every so often someone would ask "will you take X"? Schuyler would look over his glasses and say "this is not an Arab bazaar." Better yet was Bill Gregory at Bill's Auto Parts in Valley Falls, RI (older NE collectors will all probably remember him). If you tried haggling with Bill he might throw you out. I clearly remember a guy who found (if I remember this correctly) a glove box door for a Chrysler Imperial Airstream (late 30s? - they aren't something I know much about) ... How much he asked Bill (who knew exactly what it was).... $25.00

Will you take $15.00... Bill took the door, threw it back over his shoulder into a pile of carburetors and said "it's not for sale."

 

So... I don't think it's polite to haggle and avoid it whenever I possibly can.

[John348]

35 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

 

So... I don't think it's polite to haggle and avoid it whenever I possibly can.

 

I agree 100%  

[cahartley]

I don't consider asking someone if they'll take less.....in fact I think you're an idiot if you don't.......or have too much money.

Beyond that no.......not ever.

[Dynaflash8]

7 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

Flip side of the coin... I hate to haggle. When I absolutely have to, I'll say something like "what will you take". If I like it, I'll buy it. If not, I'll walk away. I also hate it when people do it to me. Years ago I had a good friend who owned a used bookstore. Everything was priced but every so often someone would ask "will you take X"? Schuyler would look over his glasses and say "this is not an Arab bazaar." Better yet was Bill Gregory at Bill's Auto Parts in Valley Falls, RI (older NE collectors will all probably remember him). If you tried haggling with Bill he might throw you out. I clearly remember a guy who found (if I remember this correctly) a glove box door for a Chrysler Imperial Airstream (late 30s? - they aren't something I know much about) ... How much he asked Bill (who knew exactly what it was).... $25.00

Will you take $15.00... Bill took the door, threw it back over his shoulder into a pile of carburetors and said "it's not for sale."

 

So... I don't think it's polite to haggle and avoid it whenever I possibly can.

A friend took me to Bill's Auto Parts once.  It was about 1977.  It was the most fabulous salvage yard I've ever visited.  My friend who I was visiting drove down from Boston and I always thought the place was in Providence, RI.  It was a day trip to remember.  I had a 41 Buick Limited at the time, I think two of them.  I did have two at one time in my garage.  I remember getting the long thin rear courtesy light lenses out of a '41 Limited he had in the yard.  There were also many big classics there including  a Cadillac 4dr convertible and something with 12 or 16 cylinders...I just can't remember what brand.  Inside I saw I remember a whole pile of NOS 41 Buick rocker panel moldings.  I always wanted to go back there, but was never lucky enough to do it.

Edited July 7, 2018 by Dynaflash8 (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

16 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

Flip side of the coin... I hate to haggle. When I absolutely have to, I'll say something like "what will you take". If I like it, I'll buy it. If not, I'll walk away. I also hate it when people do it to me. Years ago I had a good friend who owned a used bookstore. Everything was priced but every so often someone would ask "will you take X"? Schuyler would look over his glasses and say "this is not an Arab bazaar." Better yet was Bill Gregory at Bill's Auto Parts in Valley Falls, RI (older NE collectors will all probably remember him). If you tried haggling with Bill he might throw you out. I clearly remember a guy who found (if I remember this correctly) a glove box door for a Chrysler Imperial Airstream (late 30s? - they aren't something I know much about) ... How much he asked Bill (who knew exactly what it was).... $25.00

Will you take $15.00... Bill took the door, threw it back over his shoulder into a pile of carburetors and said "it's not for sale."

 

So... I don't think it's polite to haggle and avoid it whenever I possibly can.

I recently had as similar situation which left me surprised.  A person offered me some parts I was looking for, I had a wanted ad running on an enthusiasts web site. He offered me 4 parts I was looking for, 3 at $200.00 and the fourth at $300.00 total $900.00 {plus shipping}. I felt the price was definitely on the high side having seen similar parts over the last year or so for up to $200.00 less. In fact I purchased the same parts for the other side of the car for $250.00 about 2 years ago off the Bay.  I responded that I was interested, however would he consider $800.00 for the group.  He sent a email simply stating "Part are not for sale". To say the least I was quite shocked, he hadn't mentioned his price was firm and I really didn't think my offer was in any way a low ball.

 However it takes all kinds in the old car game, and I will probably find what I need eventually, possibly even at a more realistic price.

 

Greg in Canada

Edited July 7, 2018 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

I like the comment about the Arab bazaar. Striped tents, sand, and camels come to mind immediately. It has it's own set of gestures and actions, like some kind of mating behavior. In the end it is the same, just no fertility.

 

Bernie

[John348]

17 hours ago, cahartley said:

I don't consider asking someone if they'll take less.....in fact I think you're an idiot if you don't.......or have too much money.

Beyond that no.......not ever.

 

Asking someone if the can do a little better on a price is one thing, making an insulting offer is just as rude as referring to someone as an "idiot" because they don't share your opinion. How hard is it to be polite? 

Edited July 7, 2018 by John348 (see edit history)

[John348]

4 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

I recently had as similar situation which left me surprised.  A person offered me some parts I was looking for, I had a wanted ad running on an enthusiasts web site. He offered me 4 parts I was looking for, 3 at $200.00 and the fourth at $300.00 total $900.00 {plus shipping}. I felt the price was definitely on the high side having seen similar parts over the last year or so for up to $200.00 less. In fact I purchased the same parts for the other side of the car for $250.00 about 2 years ago off the Bay.  I responded that I was interested, however would he consider $800.00 for the group.  He sent a email simply stating "Part are not for sale". To say the least I was quite shocked, he hadn't mentioned his price was firm and I really didn't think my offer was in any way a low ball.

 However it takes all kinds in the old car game, and I will probably find what I need eventually, possibly even at a more realistic price.

 

Greg in Canada

 

In all fairness Greg but you did run a wanted ad, so you did leave yourself open that would be willing to pay the price to get the part. It all depends how much you want/need it. I have found when I ran a wanted ad and the price was high or out of my range the best answer was I had someone else contact me with the same part and it was less then the price you gave. If the person is interested in selling it for less the have the opportunity to adjust their price. This way the door is never closed.

[1912Staver]

Yes , I know I was advertising that I wanted the parts. And if he had simply declined my $800.00 offer and stated that his price was indeed firm I would have in all probability paid the $900.00. However he seemed to react as if any sort of bargaining was insulting. If his initial price had been in line with what I had seen to be a reasonable market value I would have paid it no question. But based on what I had seen a few times he seemed to be at least 25% above the going rate. If it was a commercial seller I would have not attempted an offer, however in my experience private sellers will generally consider sensible offers. Perhaps the seller was just having a bad day.

 Like I said 2 years ago I bought the opposite side off Ebay for $250.00. And that was after the parts were offered a few time at a slightly higher price with no takers , $300.00 if I recall correctly. $900.00 seemed like a big jump up , however if I average the two purchases it would have been borderline reasonable.

 Eventually I will find the parts, I have a left and right set that is for a different model but close enough that they can substituted so I am not completely stuck. 

It was just the sellers abrupt, all or nothing attitude  that took me aback. Most people on the website in question are like those here on the AACA forum, enthusiastic and happy to help out where they can.  I just encountered someone I wasn't expecting. 

 

Greg in Canada

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[capngrog]

1 hour ago, John348 said:

 I have found when I ran a wanted ad and the price was high or out of my range the best answer was I had someone else contact me with the same part and it was less then the price you gave. If the person is interested in selling it for less the have the opportunity to adjust their price. This way the door is never closed.

 

I don't understand how this differs from offering a figure below the asking price. 

 

On the other hand, if another person had actually offered the part to you at a price below the original responder to your ad, why were you even talking to him/her? 

 

Whether or not one agrees with the practice of "haggling", as you pointed out in your Post #96 above, it's always best to be polite and truthful. 

 

Cheers,

Grog

[mike6024]

Make an offer. If the seller wants to consider it an insult who cares? Older cranks can be some of the most arrogant and greedy.  

[Bhigdog]

Again attitude and context is everything. I was standing behind a guy at a junkyard counter. customer in front of me had an item and asked the counter guy "how much?" Guy says "$15." Customer berates the part as overpriced junk, offers $10 and threatens to walk out if he doesn't get it for $10. Guy says "sorry but the price is firm at $15". Customer slams the door on the way out. Guy says to me "can I help you". I put my parts on the counter and say very nicely "I'm surprised you wouldn't take $10 for that part". He looks at me, smiles and says "you can have it for $10"......................True story...............Bob

[John348]

1 hour ago, capngrog said:

 it's always best to be polite and truthful. 

 

Correct, and if the person who answers the wanted ad is selling the item way too cheap, I am sure everyone is truthful and tells the seller your price is way too low... I should pay you more. Or better yet run the wanted ad with the price you are willing to pay, can't more truthful than that eliminates all of the problems  

Edited July 8, 2018 by John348 (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

28 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

Again attitude and context is everything. I was standing behind a guy at a junkyard counter. customer in front of me had an item and asked the counter guy "how much?" Guy says "$15." Customer berates the part as overpriced junk, offers $10 and threatens to walk out if he doesn't get it for $10. Guy says "sorry but the price is firm at $15". Customer slams the door on the way out. Guy says to me "can I help you". I put my parts on the counter and say very nicely "I'm surprised you wouldn't take $10 for that part". He looks at me, smiles and says "you can have it for $10"......................True story...............Bob

 

This is 100% true. I grow weary of being treated like dirt because I sell cars. I had a guy come in to see a car yesterday (or two days ago, I can't even remember). He spent about an hour looking the car over, we got it out and put it on the lift, and then he wanted to drive it. Test drives are not something that just happens in our shop, so I asked him if he was a serious buyer on the car if it drove properly. I understand the test drive is important but we have to balance that with the fact that we can't let the public walk in and start driving anything they want. So I ask. He replies that he would never consider buying a car he hadn't driven. So we were at an impasse. I relented and got the car out and we went for a drive. 

 

Now we're two hours into the process, we come back from a successful test drive, and he says, "These cars aren't worth what you're asking. This isn't a GTO, you know." I pointed out that if it were a GTO, it would be about three times more expensive than the car he was looking at. The he goes on, "I was there when these cars were new. The guys who want these are all dying off so values are way down. You're crazy asking that much because I'm the only one who wants these cars anymore." I told him I disagree, that we'd had plenty of success selling similar cars and any vintage convertible with low miles and a V8 engine is going to be a car people want. His final comment, "You don't know anything about these cars. I'm the only buyer you've got." He offered me 40% below what I was asking (this is a car that already costs less than $25,000). I said, "I'm sorry you wasted your time." He said, "I didn't waste my time, I got to drive a nice car I always wanted."

 

"Well, you sure wasted mine. Have a nice day. You know where the door is," and walked away. He went in the office and complained to Melanie about how I don't know anything about that vintage of car and that she should "talk to me" about pricing it right so he can buy it.

 

Fark right the hell off with that nonsense, pal. 

 

Car dealers have a bad reputation. So do hagglers like this guy.

[cahartley]

^ He isn't a haggler.......he's a jerk....... ?

[nick8086]

I had a bad car dealership phone call last week.  I asked if they wanted to buy my  three cars..

 

The guy was having a bad day.. He was a Jerk to me.  The car pictures you sent me were crap. You should do a better job in selling your car.. etc..

 

I have also talk to Matt. he was very nice,, to me.

 

Matt I just talk to another guy in town.. He has a collect like the the one in pierce NE..

Edited July 8, 2018 by nick8086 (see edit history)

[Robert G. Smits]

Matt, I have been retired from medicine for 18 years but your post made me smile.  These people are everywhere, especially in plastic surgery.  When I encountered a patient with unrealistic expectations seeking a perfect result from a face lift or nose job I would quietly state that one of my pre-operative requirements was that they see a Phychiatrist before scheduling surgery.  They would walk out never to be seen again.   Bob Smits

[John_S_in_Penna]

2 hours ago, John348 said:

Correct, and if the person who answers the wanted ad is selling the item way too cheap, I am sure everyone is truthful and tells the seller your price is way too low... I should pay you more. 

 

Exactly.  Maybe you were being facetious, John,

but there are cases where what you describe would

be the honorable thing to do.

 

I know of one antique dealer who frequents good

garage sales--the old homes where antiques are likely.

He says he has done exactly that, and the people

really appreciate his ethics.

[JV Puleo]

I have seen this happen many times, and have done it myself In another area of collecting – one I've been active in longer than I have with cars.

Actually, I have a rule I apply. If the person selling obviously has no specialized knowledge – a widow or other heir is the usual scenario – all of my friends would regard it as highly unethical to take advantage of them. I know of one case where a prominent antique dealer was convicted and went to prison for doing essentially this. A jury found that he had defrauded the seller given his professed expertise in the area and the amount he resold the items for. (This was a great relief to me because I was in danger of being subpoenaed to testify against the same person in another similar fraud case. When he went to prison, the 2nd case was dropped.)

 

If the person doing the selling holds themselves out to be a professional of some sort – a dealer or auction house, no matter how ignorant, that is their problem and I feel no ethical compunction to correct their errors.

 

We act this way because it is appropriate but, if you need a self-serving reason, the collecting world gets smaller as one ascends. Do something grossly unethical and I will guarantee that it will be widely known in a very short time. I remember someone bragging on one of the internet collector forums about how he's acquired some highly desirable military relics from an elderly widow... I think he expected a lot of back-slapping. Instead, he was thoroughly skewered by the other members.

[cahartley]

4 hours ago, John348 said:

 

Correct, and if the person who answers the wanted ad is selling the item way too cheap, I am sure everyone is truthful and tells the seller your price is way too low... I should pay you more.

 

I did when I bought a 1920 Model T Coupe.

He had it under priced.

I gave him $500 more than he was asking.

No way was anyone around here going to say how I took him.......no way.

[John348]

37 minutes ago, cahartley said:

 

I did when I bought a 1920 Model T Coupe.

He had it under priced.

I gave him $500 more than he was asking.

No way was anyone around here going to say how I took him.......no way.

 

That is great you did the right thing, it must have been a strange feeling  based on you own words from an earlier post you made in this thread. I guess in the case of the Model T you had too much money at that time.

 

On 7/7/2018 at 12:23 AM, cahartley said:

I don't consider asking someone if they'll take less.....in fact I think you're an idiot if you don't.......or have too much money.

Beyond that no.......not ever.

 

Just so I get this straight now; you are not an "idiot" if don't haggle the price because people you know might think you took the owner?  

Hey if it works for you that's great

[Paul Dobbin]

Well guys, you don;t have to be a car dealer to meet lots of jerks.  They're everywhere!!   

We all have to put up with the rude, crude, know it all jerks just to get thru a normal day.

(No Political intent in that statement)

Selling anything is a hard life because getting  someone to part with their money is a traumatic experience for many people., especially if they don't know what they are doing.  

[cahartley]

21 hours ago, John348 said:

 

That is great you did the right thing, it must have been a strange feeling  based on you own words from an earlier post you made in this thread. I guess in the case of the Model T you had too much money at that time.

 

 

Just so I get this straight now; you are not an "idiot" if don't haggle the price because people you know might think you took the owner?  

Hey if it works for you that's great

 

This is a close community.....everyone knows everyone.

They WON'T know ME as someone who takes advantage of people!

[John348]

1 hour ago, cahartley said:

 

This is a close community.....everyone knows everyone.

They WON'T know ME as someone who takes advantage of people!

 

Very true, more reason not to refer anyone as an "idiot" like you did in an earlier post if they don't try to get a better price

[1935Packard]

On 7/2/2018 at 8:44 AM, Matt Harwood said:

In this particular case, I think it was just that the guy didn't understand that an old car can be something other than perfect. There was more to our conversation. He was a relative newcomer to the hobby, although he  pointed out that he has owned old Porsches in the past (if '80s 944s can be old). I will admit that I don't travel in Porsche circles, but I have to believe there are cars that are something other than perfect at Porsche shows. But in this case, I think he was simply thinking in binary terms--either a car is perfect or it's junk, and there is no in-between. As I said, I probably could have told him it was indeed perfect and he would probably have been delighted with the car, small flaws and all (it's a really nice car). To him, maybe perfect isn't the same as free of any and all defects. Maybe he was really trying to ask if it was a "nice" car the way most of us use that particular word. And yes, it's a very "nice" car that we'd all stop to admire if we saw it at a show. It seems to be terminology problem but since I'm hard-wired to avoid saying "perfect" at all costs, I think I simply said too much for him to process. There are definitely times when too much information is worse than too little. Maybe this was one of them--I was trying to educate him on the difference between a good car and a perfect car, while he was only able to understand perfect vs. project. 

 

Yes, it was a frustrating call, but there was no malice in it....

 

 

I'm late to the thread, and probably everything has been said by now, but, still -- I think this is key.  If you're new to antique cars, a car that looks really shiny and runs right now probably seems "perfect."  A lot of us have experienced that view when we take our #3 driver cars out for a spin. People who comment on the car are likely to see it as an absolutely perfect car when you know it's just a driver.  

 

More broadly, it's a good reminder that the basic dynamics we know about restoration are totally foreign to those with no experience in this.  For example, when I was first getting into the hobby, I was interested in getting a car restored.  I brought it to a shop that a friend recommended, and I asked how much it would cost to restore the car to top condition and how much it would cost to make it really nice.  The  shop owner patiently explained to me that "top condition" could mean lots of things; he  quoted some figures for a restoration that struck me as completely and totally insane; and he explained how you couldn't easily just pick a level of condition (like "really nice') and aim for that for the whole car.  Looking back on that conversation, what the shop owner said was exactly right and completely reasonable.  But I remember wondering if he was just trying to trick me.  I just didn't know enough yet to realize how things worked.  It must be frustrating to have to deal with so many new customers who also don't "get it,"  and from his posts here Matt seems very honest and good with customers.  But it can also be hard for new people to figure out who to trust.

Edited July 9, 2018 by 1935Packard (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

Many years ago a Model A Vicky showed up in the Saturday morning paper. Dad and I sped to the address. Literally seconds after we arrived a local collector of strictly A's showed up and walked to the seller's door about 2 steps behind us. Being a gentleman the other fellow said "You guys were here first so you have first shot". We went into the garage and it was a nice car. Now Dad was an  incurable haggler. He would even haggle with our family doctor. Dad asked the price of the car and the seller said $1300 as advertised. The collector, who really wanted the car, said, loud enough that the seller had to hear him, "If these fellows don't want to pay $1300 I will". Dad couldn't help himself and offered the seller $1100, which he accepted. The collector left, muttering to himself as he walked down the sidewalk.

[60FlatTop]

I dislike being with hagglers. Mention a car advertised and they tell you how much less they can buy it for, if they break down and buy something they brag about the deal. They never sold anything and lost money. They always bought for "wholesale".

 

After listening to and watching these types for years I have come to the conclusion that they focus on demeaning the value another person has placed on the item for sale. They bully their way into proving your estimation is wrong. The value you perceive can never be paid in their mind. I have known enough of them to know that they will even lie to save face if they think they paid too much. If bullying doesn't work they will cry poverty, ill heath in the family. or some other impending financial doom in their life, just to avoid spending the extra nickel. If they buy something they will boast about the deal (although NEVER mention the price) and ALWAYS let you know of the great profit they made if they sell it.

 

To me the "haggler" will never be anything more than a person with a mental disorder, probably based on some inadequacy they have.

[1912Staver]

I agree that some people feel compelled to haggle regardless of the connection of the price to reality. However what is a person to do if the seller is clearly overpriced ? If it's a reasonably common item then by all means just move on, the seller will eventually realise the price needs to drop for a sale.  But what do you do if the part or car is something you rarely see for sale and would really like to buy ? Not all of us are in a position to simply pay the sellers price regardless of how unreasonable.

  Is not a bit of bargaining reasonable? Not all sellers are expert in the market, many will just pull a price out of thin air and see what happens.  I have played the waiting game and sometimes it works. The same seller with the same part at a series of 4 or 5 annual swap meets, eventually the price drops to a reasonable figure and a purchase is made. But sometimes you can't wait several years for practical reasons.  I have often tried to shortcut the waiting game with what I feel is a reasonable offer. And it often works.  

 If the asking price is reasonable I just pay it, however probably 50% of my purchases involve some degree of haggling.

 

Greg in Canada

Edited July 9, 2018 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[DAVES89]

I used to haggle everytime I could and now do it selectively. What "cured" me of it was a vacation to Mexico. I found some item I wanted and a preteen kid was running the booth. I was relentless in beating him down on price, and only stopped when I saw a beaten look on his face. I then realized what I was doing, apoligized and paid him full price. 

 Don't even have that item anymore, actually glad it is gone.

  

[Restorer32]

Dad would only buy clothes where he could deal with the actual owner of the shop. When he was diagnosed with the big C he shopped around for the cheapest oncologist he could find. A character defect? Of course but understandable when you knew that he was abandoned as a child and was on his own from the age of 12.  If he couldn't haggle he wouldn't buy. I don't haggle unless I know for a fact that the asking price is unreasonable. I will just make a "take it or leave it" offer. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

[SC38dls]

I look at it from this point of view. When I see a car advertised and it is way out of line with what I feel a car is worth I don’t bother with it. If it is close to what I can afford and feel it is a decent car based on the ads I will go and look it over. I will tell the seller I am willing to pay “x” for it if it drives as advertised and he is willing to sell it at that price. If agreed I’ll give it a drive. If not both can walk away without any harm. When I say an offer it is usually within 10 percent of his asking price. If that offends the seller ok I can walk away and so can he. If he gets upset I feel he is not being realistic in his expectations but that’s his right. Just don’t bitch at me as I have the right to ask also. He knows what he needs and wants out of a sale. I know what I need and want out of a purchase. Accept the fact those two things may not meet in the middle and go on with life. When it does good for all. If not ok too

 

 

Have fun 

Dave S 

[capngrog]

14 hours ago, John348 said:

 

Very true, more reason not to refer anyone as an "idiot" like you did in an earlier post if they don't try to get a better price

 

But John, you "liked" it when '60FlatTop' said this about hagglers:

5 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

 

To me the "haggler" will never be anything more than a person with a mental disorder, probably based on some inadequacy they have.

 

Cheers,

Grog