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a/c conversion


tkeiser1

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My 63's ac doesn't work. I've resolved a number of issues, and am now working on replacing the clogged expansion valve. However, the question I have is whether or not the following assumption is correct or not.  The ac has a new receiver dryer, and the low pressure and high pressure valves have been converted to the new sizes. I'm assuming that this means that someone has already converted the system to R134a. Is this a valid assumption?

Edited by tkeiser1 (see edit history)
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                  Yes, but what you don't know is if they flushed out the old oil and installed refrigerant oil compatible

with R134A refrigerant. The fact that your expansion valve was clogged indicates that the system is contaminated.

The smart thing to do would be to disconnect all the connections, flush out all the lines, the condensor and the evaporator core with

A/C flush and install new R134A compatible oil in the system, along with a new drier. Also replace the oil in the pan of the compressor with

the new R134 A oil.

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Sir, I’ve been struggling longer than I want to admit trying to get the AC in my 63 working the way it should. My experience is you have to make sure the system that uses the R12 or 134 a can make cold cold air without leaks. Once you have the system making cold air your challenge is getting the cold air in the cabin. The controls - vacuum lines, vacuum switches, and vacuum actuator diaphrams have to work as well. The controls is a complete system in ADDITION the system that makes cold air. 

 

I wnted to keep the car stock. The time, money, and energy I’ve put in to get cool air now gives me pause should I have considered a completely new aftermarket system?

Hopefull, you are mechanical and iron out the wrinkles so you keep it stock and expenses to a minimum.

 

RRB

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4 hours ago, Red Riviera Bob said:

Sir, I’ve been struggling longer than I want to admit trying to get the AC in my 63 working the way it should. My experience is you have to make sure the system that uses the R12 or 134 a can make cold cold air without leaks. Once you have the system making cold air your challenge is getting the cold air in the cabin. The controls - vacuum lines, vacuum switches, and vacuum actuator diaphrams have to work as well. The controls is a complete system in ADDITION the system that makes cold air. 

 

I wnted to keep the car stock. The time, money, and energy I’ve put in to get cool air now gives me pause should I have considered a completely new aftermarket system?

Hopefull, you are mechanical and iron out the wrinkles so you keep it stock and expenses to a minimum.

 

RRB

I had the same experience years ago with my 63 although I did not try as hard to fix the stock system before replacing it all with Vintage Air. I was very happy with that system but I have a great deal of respect for anyone who can get the original to work.

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I havw Vintage Air as well. The Gen IV Magnum universal kit. All hooked to my factory vents. Love mine; the biggest fault I have is getting my center dash vent to throw enough air.

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23 hours ago, TexRiv_63 said:

I had the same experience years ago with my 63 although I did not try as hard to fix the stock system before replacing it all with Vintage Air. I was very happy with that system but I have a great deal of respect for anyone who can get the original to work.

Sir, when I get the “ original right” and I will...if the devil don’t care and the creek don’t rise. There are two reputable sources in central Md I’ve tracked down that might be able to unravel the problem.

ill replace the 2 vacuum diaphragms below the heater box the way Jim Cannon did his 63.

ive got a car lift and I’m persistent so lll get ‘er done. Thank you for your positive comments.

RRB

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16 hours ago, jframe said:

I havw Vintage Air as well. The Gen IV Magnum universal kit. All hooked to my factory vents. Love mine; the biggest fault I have is getting my center dash vent to throw enough air.

Mark, sounds good to me.

All of us make the best decision we could make at the time.

If, it were cooler now you might not hear a peep from me. Hope you get the PC valve squared away.

RRB

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3 hours ago, Red Riviera Bob said:

Mark, sounds good to me.

All of us make the best decision we could make at the time.

If, it were cooler now you might not hear a peep from me. Hope you get the PC valve squared away.

RRB

I did, finally. Just took the right amount of white grease, and a combination of swear words and other verbal abuse.

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Sorry for the delay in responding. I thought I had set this forum to receive notifications of replies, but obviously something went wrong (like many of my repair attempts).

 

1965rivgs:  I figured that out from the pressures that the expansion valve was clogged. The low pressure was actual negative, indicating that the compressor was sucking.

 

Red Riviera Bob:   Amen!  The vacuum system was the first thing I worked on. One diaphragm was broken. The control wires weren't set properly. The cold air blower control was disconnected, vacuum hoses were dry, cracked and hooked up wrong, etc., etc. I was thrilled to finally get all of that now working satisfactorily. I'm still concerned about whether the system was really upgraded to R134a properly. The shrader valves were changed and the receiver dryer was obviously brand new. However, when I took the evaporator out and disconnected the expansion valve, it was obviously the original, and very very clogged. My current issue is that I ordered a new expansion valve, which was supposed to be an exact fit. However, the outlet is #8 thread whereas the old one was #6. Now I have to figure out how to make that connection. I had someone make a fitting for me (which I haven't received yet), but I'm concerned about the fit, since it is 2 1/2" long and it appears that I only have 1 1/2" to play with inside the box. Once I resolve that issue, I'll move to the next step. (I'm mechanical, but not a mechanic, so I'm learning about everything as I go along. And, like you, I will persist until there's no more options. Incidentally, I spent the first 48 years of my life in Balto/Towson, and frequently return. One of these days I'll drive up my Riv and we can compare!)

Edited by tkeiser1 (see edit history)
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Mr. Kieser , you are welcome stay anytime. I’ll have a garage Bay for your Riv if you would like to stay the night. I’m north of the Beltway off Falls Rd.

 

 

ive heard the 134a does not cool in the older cars as well as the R12. Go the direction you like. I had my suction throttling valve rebuilt by old air because I stayed with R12. The STV update is an electronic work around so you can avoid w/o rebuilding the STV. Your explanations reveal that you are conversant with the AC process and you know what the parts do in the system. I’ve heard mixing the 134a with the R12 is not the right thing to do. If you had a machine that would capture the gas in your system you could then test for leaks. I’ve purchased R12 for around $50.00 a pound and you only need 3.5 lbs thereabouts. Pricey, but an expense that can be handled if you want R12. Did I mention Old Air sells color coded vacuum hoses that are easier to handle. The 63 service manual marks the colored vacuum hoses and they hook up to the switches and diaphragms. I believe the 65 AC  design has major improvements compared to the 63. If I can be of assistance let me know.

Red Riviera Bob

Edited by Red Riviera Bob
Words left out, clarification (see edit history)
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It's true that R12 will give you colder air than 134A.  It's also true that there is sufficient extra capacity in these systems to withstand that slight degradation without sacrificing comfort.  Another thing to remember: the STV is adjustable, which means that you can tune it for optimal performance with the refrigerant of your choice.

 

If you're going to convert to R134A, it's might be worth considering reports that you can lose refrigerant through permeable hoses.  That is, all the seals and components are fine, but you still find that you need to constantly add more gas.  The solution is to replace the hoses.  This, in turn, makes the conversion process even more expensive.

 

IMHO, (FWIW), the best solution is to keep the factory AC running R12. It's not clear that fixing a non-working factory system is any more expensive than converting to R134A or replacing it with a Vintage Air system or doing a compromised reconfiguration with a disabled STV and a cycling system. The principle downside is the cost of R12, but -- if the system is done properly -- that's a negligible recurring cost.  OTOH, it works better, it preserves originality, and it adds more value to the vehicle.

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Yes, I remember how cold the air was in some of those early cars. I remember one lincoln that was creating frost inside. Unfortunately, the system on my 63 was already converted so I don't have much of a choice. From the condition of the various components, my guess is that they  changed over to R134a, changing the schrader valves and installing a new receiver dryer. However, the expansion valve was so corroded that I can't imagine it was very functional at the time, if at all. (This car only has 63,000 miles on it and has hardly been driven in the last 30 years, so the ac wasn't used much.  Certainly not long enough to clog an expansion valve like this one was clogged.)  I ordered a new valve, but it isn't the right one. Per Jim Cannon, the Riv expansion valves on the 63 have been lumped in with all other full size buicks in the catalogs, so no one knows that it's different from the rest. The old one has a #6 thread on the outlet while the new ones have #8. I got someone to make an adaptive fitting, but it may be too long to squeeze into the box. I ordered another expansion valve that looks like it might work. If not, I'll just make the first replacement one work one way or another. Once that's in, it will be interesting to see if the STV is functioning well. I hope I can get this done in time for some cool rides this summer.

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On 6/30/2018 at 12:54 PM, KongaMan said:

It's true that R12 will give you colder air than 134A.  It's also true that there is sufficient extra capacity in these systems to withstand that slight degradation without sacrificing comfort.  Another thing to remember: the STV is adjustable, which means that you can tune it for optimal performance with the refrigerant of your choice.

 

If you're going to convert to R134A, it's might be worth considering reports that you can lose refrigerant through permeable hoses.  That is, all the seals and components are fine, but you still find that you need to constantly add more gas.  The solution is to replace the hoses.  This, in turn, makes the conversion process even more expensive.

 

IMHO, (FWIW), the best solution is to keep the factory AC running R12. It's not clear that fixing a non-working factory system is any more expensive than converting to R134A or replacing it with a Vintage Air system or doing a compromised reconfiguration with a disabled STV and a cycling system. The principle downside is the cost of R12, but -- if the system is done properly -- that's a negligible recurring cost.  OTOH, it works better, it preserves originality, and it adds more value to the vehicle.

My experience at this point is a R12 cost of $200.00. I pain the $200 to a friend who gave his container of R12 to me to use as needed. I estimated use of R12 at 3.5 lbs.

i believe I’m “ rounding the corner “ to AC that blows cold air. I’m replacing the two single diaphram vacuums under the heater box with one vacuum 2 port actuator. 

Im I’m hopes the recirculation air door will help in getting colder air in the cabin. We will see in the next  few days.

Red Riviera Bob

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18 hours ago, tkeiser1 said:

Yes, I remember how cold the air was in some of those early cars. I remember one lincoln that was creating frost inside. Unfortunately, the system on my 63 was already converted so I don't have much of a choice. From the condition of the various components, my guess is that they  changed over to R134a, changing the schrader valves and installing a new receiver dryer. However, the expansion valve was so corroded that I can't imagine it was very functional at the time, if at all. (This car only has 63,000 miles on it and has hardly been driven in the last 30 years, so the ac wasn't used much.  Certainly not long enough to clog an expansion valve like this one was clogged.)  I ordered a new valve, but it isn't the right one. Per Jim Cannon, the Riv expansion valves on the 63 have been lumped in with all other full size buicks in the catalogs, so no one knows that it's different from the rest. The old one has a #6 thread on the outlet while the new ones have #8. I got someone to make an adaptive fitting, but it may be too long to squeeze into the box. I ordered another expansion valve that looks like it might work. If not, I'll just make the first replacement one work one way or another. Once that's in, it will be interesting to see if the STV is functioning well. I hope I can get this done in time for some cool rides this summer.

I may be repeating myself, but Old Air rebuilds the STV. You need to send in the core. I’ve heard you can update your existing STV with an electronic up date from Old Air.

Let’s hope all will come together.

Red Riviera Bob

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9 hours ago, Red Riviera Bob said:

My experience at this point is a R12 cost of $200.00. I pain the $200 to a friend who gave his container of R12 to me to use as needed. I estimated use of R12 at 3.5 lbs.

i believe I’m “ rounding the corner “ to AC that blows cold air. I’m replacing the two single diaphram vacuums under the heater box with one vacuum 2 port actuator. 

Im I’m hopes the recirculation air door will help in getting colder air in the cabin. We will see in the next  few days.

Red Riviera Bob

 

Some of those issues are independent.  For example, you can test and adjust AC performance even with non-functional diaphragms.  That is, you can hold the heater and recirculating doors in position while you tweak the STV and adjust the R12.

 

As a sanity check, did you pull your blower box?  After 55 years, there's no assurance that the doors operate smoothly or the seals are still functional.

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No, didn't pull it, but it's working fine. All of the vacuum components checked out for functionality. Plus, having now removed the evaporator, I can visually check it. I'll look more closely before reinstalling the evaporator . . . it may need some lubrication.

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If your expansion valve was so corroded that it was completely blocked you may be in for more grief re the other components. I would assume the valve was corroded because moisture permeated the system? Or was it clogged with debris like dessicant which came from the dryer or metal from a compressor failure? Hope I`m wrong but instead of waste the refrigerant only to find the STV is inop (I`m assuming you dont have a recycling setup) why not bite the bullet at this point and attend to the STV too? Chances are good that whatever circumstances affected the expansion valve will affect the other components in the system. Just a suggestion..

  Tom

Edited by 1965rivgs (see edit history)
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Tom,

The screen was totally clogged, brown gunk, probably a mixture of debris & rust. I'm concerned about the STV as well. However, the line out of the evaporator seemed pretty clean, whereas the line in drained gunk out. So I'm hopeful.  I'm new to all of this . . . how can I check the STV while I have the system apart?

Tom

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3 minutes ago, tkeiser1 said:

Tom,

The screen was totally clogged, brown gunk, probably a mixture of debris & rust. I'm concerned about the STV as well. However, the line out of the evaporator seemed pretty clean, whereas the line in drained gunk out. So I'm hopeful.  I'm new to all of this . . . how can I check the STV while I have the system apart?

Tom

Hopefully sounds like the expansion valve may have taken the brunt of the debris. There is a piston which is bonded to a rubber diaphram in the STV that under ideal circumstances should probably be changed out. Over the years I have found these rebuild kits via Ebay, etc but whether these can still be readily found I am not sure. Before taking the valve apart probably a good idea to at least try to find the kit.

Tom

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Might also be a good idea to disconnect and flush each of the individual components too, like the evap, the condensor, etc...sorry if this was already mentioned. You will also have the option to replace the old oil with a more modern oil which is compatible with both R12 and R134

Tom

Edited by 1965rivgs (see edit history)
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2 hours ago, tkeiser1 said:

 how can I check the STV while I have the system apart?

 

The operation, inspection, and adjustment of the STV is described in the FSM (see pp 11-43 and 11-85 of the 63 manual).  If you're worried than the system may be full of "gunk", you might pay particular attention to the filter screen at the connection to the evaporator outlet.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/2/2018 at 12:41 AM, KongaMan said:

 

Some of those issues are independent.  For example, you can test and adjust AC performance even with non-functional diaphragms.  That is, you can hold the heater and recirculating doors in position while you tweak the STV and adjust the R12.

 

As a sanity check, did you pull your blower box?  After 55 years, there's no assurance that the doors operate smoothly or the seals are still functional.

I pulled the heater box off and the  door I could find in the heater box worked fine. The spring was in good shape. Replaced the two single valve diaphrams with one 2 ported diaphram. I Td the two ports and connected vacuum hose at the proper vacuum switch.

Getting the heater box off and on was difficult for me.

we found the low side having very high pressure. Maybe STV requires adjustment. Maybe expansion valve is stuck. Could be too much R12. Won’t know until we get a recovery machine. A scale as well to weigh the Freon. Tricky.

RRB

Edited by Red Riviera Bob (see edit history)
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  • 1 month later...
On 6/27/2018 at 10:23 PM, tkeiser1 said:

Sorry for the delay in responding. I thought I had set this forum to receive notifications of replies, but obviously something went wrong (like many of my repair attempts).

 

1965rivgs:  I figured that out from the pressures that the expansion valve was clogged. The low pressure was actual negative, indicating that the compressor was sucking.

 

Red Riviera Bob:   Amen!  The vacuum system was the first thing I worked on. One diaphragm was broken. The control wires weren't set properly. The cold air blower control was disconnected, vacuum hoses were dry, cracked and hooked up wrong, etc., etc. I was thrilled to finally get all of that now working satisfactorily. I'm still concerned about whether the system was really upgraded to R134a properly. The shrader valves were changed and the receiver dryer was obviously brand new. However, when I took the evaporator out and disconnected the expansion valve, it was obviously the original, and very very clogged. My current issue is that I ordered a new expansion valve, which was supposed to be an exact fit. However, the outlet is #8 thread whereas the old one was #6. Now I have to figure out how to make that connection. I had someone make a fitting for me (which I haven't received yet), but I'm concerned about the fit, since it is 2 1/2" long and it appears that I only have 1 1/2" to play with inside the box. Once I resolve that issue, I'll move to the next step. (I'm mechanical, but not a mechanic, so I'm learning about everything as I go along. And, like you, I will persist until there's no more options. Incidentally, I spent the first 48 years of my life in Balto/Towson, and frequently return. One of these days I'll drive up my Riv and we can compare!)

tkeiser, I’m in Hopes by now you’ve got the evaporator and expansion valve project in your 63 back in place. I was hoping you’d take a few minutes to explain what you removed in order to get to the expansion valve. I’m in the process of replacing my expansion valve and cleaning the evaporator. I can see the fasteners under the dash on the passenger side holding the evaporator in place. I’m hoping you were able to squeeze your replacement evaporator with the new fitting on the expansion valve back in place. I’m not a mechanic and not too mechanical, but I persist.

Did you take the seat and the console out?

Thank you for your help,

Red Riviera Bob

PS I’m in the process of changing out ac parts, flushing, and then evacuating the system. 

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6 hours ago, Red Riviera Bob said:

tkeiser, I’m in Hopes by now you’ve got the evaporator and expansion valve project in your 63 back in place. I was hoping you’d take a few minutes to explain what you removed in order to get to the expansion valve. I’m in the process of replacing my expansion valve and cleaning the evaporator. I can see the fasteners under the dash on the passenger side holding the evaporator in place. I’m hoping you were able to squeeze your replacement evaporator with the new fitting on the expansion valve back in place. I’m not a mechanic and not too mechanical, but I persist.

Did you take the seat and the console out?

Thank you for your help,

Red Riviera Bob

PS I’m in the process of changing out ac parts, flushing, and then evacuating the system

Bob,

Nope, the project is still ongoing. If got the connector to the expansion valve and, in spite of its length, got it back into the evaporator box. HOWEVER, when I started hooking it back up I ran into another problem. The equalizer line on the new expansion valve has a male connector whereas the old one was female. I've tried to get an adaptor for that but have been unsuccessful since the fitting sizes are not standard. So, I cut the female connector off of the old expansion valve and am having a friend try to braze it on to the new valve. We'll see how that goes. Meanwhile I've been flushing the system. That's complete except for the condenser. However, things have been going slow. Life continually gets in the way of hobbies. 

 

Seat & console? No. However, while I was working on the ac and had the dash apart, I took the console apart was well, trying to locate an electrical problem. That worked well as I was able to find that someone had disconnected the wires from the door switches.

 

Tom

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16 hours ago, tkeiser1 said:

Bob,

Nope, the project is still ongoing. If got the connector to the expansion valve and, in spite of its length, got it back into the evaporator box. HOWEVER, when I started hooking it back up I ran into another problem. The equalizer line on the new expansion valve has a male connector whereas the old one was female. I've tried to get an adaptor for that but have been unsuccessful since the fitting sizes are not standard. So, I cut the female connector off of the old expansion valve and am having a friend try to braze it on to the new valve. We'll see how that goes. Meanwhile I've been flushing the system. That's complete except for the condenser. However, things have been going slow. Life continually gets in the way of hobbies. 

 

Seat & console? No. However, while I was working on the ac and had the dash apart, I took the console apart was well, trying to locate an electrical problem. That worked well as I was able to find that someone had disconnected the wires from the door switches.

 

Tom

Tom, I thought I was the only one tilting against windmills. I’m surprised the expansion valve you got did not mate up properly. On the brazing, I found a Welding/Fabricating shop that likes small jobs for cash. Maybe a resource you want to cultivate. The shop I use fabricated and replaced a bell arm in my HVAC control for a fair fee. BTW, I rinsed the compressor with mineral oil until the rinsed oil dripped  clean.  How many pounds of gas does your system call for? I can understand how life gets in the way of hobbies. Keep up the good work. Thank you for the answer.

Red Riviera Bob

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23 hours ago, Red Riviera Bob said:

Did you take the seat and the console out?

 

You don't need to take the seat out, but it's sure a lot easier to grub around under there if it's out of the way.  Generally speaking, don't remove the console for anything unless you absolutely must.  

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7 hours ago, KongaMan said:

 

You don't need to take the seat out, but it's sure a lot easier to grub around under there if it's out of the way.  Generally speaking, don't remove the console for anything unless you absolutely must.  

 

I totally agree with that. I replaced the knee dash pad on the passenger side of my car awhile back. While doing this I also removed the brackets for the evaporator to clean and paint them. Not too bad taking everything out with the seat in but, getting everything back in was a different story. If you are like me you are finding that your body does not bend and twist like it used too. Taking the seat out makes things much easier.

 

Bill

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I've managed okay so far by squeezing into the small places. To me it's just part of the "fun."

 

As for the expansion valve, it appears that my friend was successful at brazing on the female connector. Now I need to finish flushing (condenser) and putting oil back into the compressor. Then it's the wonderful "let's see if it works."  However, the biggest problem now is hurricane Florence, since I live in the Hampton Roads area. 

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On 7/2/2018 at 10:38 AM, 1965rivgs said:

If your expansion valve was so corroded that it was completely blocked you may be in for more grief re the other components. I would assume the valve was corroded because moisture permeated the system? Or was it clogged with debris like dessicant which came from the dryer or metal from a compressor failure? Hope I`m wrong but instead of waste the refrigerant only to find the STV is inop (I`m assuming you dont have a recycling setup) why not bite the bullet at this point and attend to the STV too? Chances are good that whatever circumstances affected the expansion valve will affect the other components in the system. Just a suggestion..

  Tom

Tom,  all of your suggestions coincidently are parallel with me replacing everything but the vacuum modulator and the condenser. I had all the hoses rebuilt to 134a spec even though I’m going to use R12. I’m in hopes the rebuild of my 63 turns out leak free. New O rings that are lubricated with a little bit of mineral oil. Filled the compressor with 314 ml of mineral oil. All I have to do is finish the assembly, make sure everything is tight and pull a vacuum. 

RRB

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 7/2/2018 at 1:02 PM, KongaMan said:

 

The operation, inspection, and adjustment of the STV is described in the FSM (see pp 11-43 and 11-85 of the 63 manual).  If you're worried than the system may be full of "gunk", you might pay particular attention to the filter screen at the connection to the evaporator outlet.

Mr Konga Man, thank you for the pages in the manual to adjust the STV. One of my mechanic friends that "looked' at my AC said the STV is stuck. I told my pal the STV was just rebuilt by Old Air. Well, after I decided to replace all the parts I could in the AC system I sent the STV back to Old Air and the sales guy says, " Yes, the STV is stuck." He then said, "How do you want to pay for the repair." I said I didn't want to pay for it at all, since you sent me a part that hasn't worked I thought your company would make it good." Old Air rebuilt the STV, again, so maybe it will work this time.

Since I've already put a new evaporator and new TXV with brand new AC hoses in the cabinet I did not see a filter screen. I've got a habit of over looking things. I'm in hopes of now finding my leak(s) at the connections.

Many thanks

Red Rivera Bob


  

 

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On 9/5/2018 at 11:58 PM, KongaMan said:

 

You don't need to take the seat out, but it's sure a lot easier to grub around under there if it's out of the way.  Generally speaking, don't remove the console for anything unless you absolutely must.  

Mr Konga Man, if removing something in the way is really really easy on old rusted equipment I'll try. However, if I can make it WITHOUT removing something I would prefer to leave it alone. Finally, I got the dash off, but it took two of us tugging on the dash. I'm not removing the console for anything unless I'm repairing the console. I took the dash off to look at the vacuum modulator and replace the cracked hoses.

Thanks again,

Red Riviera Bob

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