'64 401 Nailhead Questions

[Poppy's 55]

I recently bought a '55 Buick Century at auction and it reportedly has a 401 nailhead out of a '64 Wildcat. It has a 4 bbl carburator and looks correct. I can't verify the motor. I read where I should be able to find a stamp on the front of the engine block (maybe upside down?) but I can't see anything unless I'm looking in the wrong place.

 

Anyway, it was delivered by transport yesterday from Oregon and it runs like poop. I took it out without thinking and got stuck on the side of the road 1/2 mile from the house but managed to limp home after about 1/2 hour.

 

It starts up great and idles and sounds fine but then it soon starts to stumble and can stall. Driving it had little power at all and sounded like it wasn't firing on all cylinders. I had to throw it in neutral at lights and "try" to keep my revs up or it would stall. Last time it stalled it wouldn't start again. I thought it was out of gas so had a friend bring me 5 gallons which I put in and it started and ran home but, as I said, barely.

 

This morning I check the wiring to see if maybe the firing order was wrong but it seems correct based on some diagrams I found online. I still would love to know for sure if I found the correct information. Oh, and these certainly aren't chevy small blocks. I was all goofed up at first thinking I knew the cylinder numbering but, wrong! Like I said, I found some information online that i hope is correct  but I would like to ask for some help.

 

So are the cylinders numbered front to back; left bank, 2-4-6-8; right bank, 1-3-5-7?

 

Is the firing order 1-2-7-8-4-5-6-3?

 

So I checked and this is how the motor is currently wired. Dang, I was hoping it was that simple.

 

So I pulled the plugs and I did find a couple of issues but I don't think they would cause this much trouble running. First the plugs are all gapped differently. Anywhere from .028 to .036. They don't look too bad though. Secondly I found a couple plugs had no crush washer and a couple weren't on the plug but all crunched up in the hole! the others were on and intact.

 

The plugs are Autolight 85s but the documentation I found states they should be 44s.

 

So can someone please help me out. First with the correct plugs because I am going to replace them first along with the correct gap.

 

Oh, I was told the motor was rebuilt 4 years ago, but I doubt it was modified as it still has the stock exhaust manifolds and I would think most guys who say bore and stroke a motor would add headers (or at least I would).

 

Thanks for your help. I just know I'm going to have so many more. Oh, and I had no idea where to properly post this question.

[EmTee]

Here's the firing order:

 

Tune-up specs here:

http://www.tpocr.com/buick.html

 

I'd start with a compression test... 

[Beemon]

Has the ignition system been upgraded or is it stock? What's your base timing set at? Dwell? 

 

And yeah, do the compression check. I'd hate to find out I just bought a nice looking car with a blown motor...

[NTX5467]

When I got my '68 LeSabre 350 many years ago, it had a "fit" of starting and running fine, then suddenly it would start losing rpm (just sitting there running).  If I caught it quick enough, I could pump the throttle a few times and it'd come back and stay running.  I put new NGK plus in it.  New magnetic suppression plug wires.  New points and such.  But this problem still existed, whether sitting there idling or driving down the freeway.  Sometimes, I'd have to coast to the shoulder.  Try to start it, pumping the throttle all the time, until it want to run again.  Then I'd slam it into "D" and seek to drive off without it stalling again.  That last time, I was taking it back to the storage building and was glad I got it there under its own power!  My old "bag phone" was in the rear floor board, but the cigarette lighter didn't work.  NOT a good deal!

 

Later, I was trying to figure it out.  It was acting as if it was running out of gas, but it had plenty of gas in the tank.  So, with the other stuff done and in good condition, I started with a new fuel pump.  After I did that, got everything all hooked up.  Upon first start-up, it ran and sounded better than it ever had!  I was surprised how much better it sounded and drove!  After a carb rebuild a while back, runs even better.

 

So, I suspect your experience with keeping the car running might be similar enough to consider a new fuel pump for it.

 

The plug gap shouldn't make that much difference in running.  The lack of spark plug gaskets would interfere with the electrical ground of the spark plugs individually.  That deal just sounds a little flaky.  The "44S" is an ACDelco spark plug number.  No two brands of spark plugs use the same numbers.  Some people like AutoLites as they are good plugs and tend to be available at many auto supplies at reasonable prices.  My experiences with ACDelco plugs has been lackluster.  A MotorCraft cross, an NGK cross, or something else can work just as well with better durability than the ACDelcos, from my experiences.  But to get things running, the ACDelcos will work fine.  IF they need the plug gaskets, they'll be on the spark plugs in the box.  From "finger tight" with a drop of oil on the threads, about 1/4 turn more torque and you're done.

 

One other thing to look about is the gas cap and if it should be a vented/anti-surge type of cap or non-vented.

 

Please keep us posted.

 

NTX5467

[Poppy's 55]

Thanks guys. I'll look at all of this.

[avgwarhawk]

Another thing to consider as it has sat for a bit.  Old gas may be flowing through fuel system.   I think you did drive it a few weeks ago though correct?   As far as plugs,  I run R45 A/C Delco in my 401.  Also ran Autolite plugs that cross referenced the 44S.  Worked find as well.     

[Poppy's 55]

13 minutes ago, avgwarhawk said:

Another thing to consider as it has sat for a bit.  Old gas may be flowing through fuel system.   I think you did drive it a few weeks ago though correct?   As far as plugs,  I run R45 A/C Delco in my 401.  Also ran Autolite plugs that cross referenced the 44S.  Worked find as well.     

 

I did drive it but I did also have difficulty. When we returned from the test drive it was stumbling badly so I was checking under the hood and a spark plug wire was loose and plug #2 was lose in the cylinder hole. It was hot and I had no tools and then we left for home so the auction house said they had someone check it and it was now running fine. Yeah, right!

 

Anyway, yesterday I replaced the plugs with the ACDelco R45s and checked the distributor and it looks like the points, cap and rotor were all like new. The wires look new as well but I don't really like how they seat either in the cap or on the plugs but I can deal with that easy enough.

 

I also added another 5 gallons of 91 and 1/2 bottle of octane booster and ran it for a while. I'm also doing a compression test this weekend. I may do a leak down test but I have to break out my tools and see what I have.

 

In the mean time, I have an appointment next Tuesday at a shop that specializes in carburetors but does all tune-ups and they are well know to hot rodders and classic car owners in the region so I'm sure we can get it sorted out.

[avgwarhawk]

Did you check the gap for the points?  You have a dwell meter?  A gap that is off can ruin an entire day.  The distributor cap should have a door(metal that slides up.) to the point adjustment(hex key).      

[Poppy's 55]

8 minutes ago, avgwarhawk said:

Did you check the gap for the points?  You have a dwell meter?  A gap that is off can ruin an entire day.  The distributor cap should have a door(metal that slides up.) to the point adjustment(hex key).      

 

 I did not check that but I will take a look. Man it's been so long since I worked on this aged car! A couple years ago I sold all my old diagnostic tools but luckily I have a buddy who wasn't that short sighted and still has his. 

[avgwarhawk]

1 hour ago, Poppy's 55 said:

 

 I did not check that but I will take a look. Man it's been so long since I worked on this aged car! A couple years ago I sold all my old diagnostic tools but luckily I have a buddy who wasn't that short sighted and still has his. 

 

Definitely check the points and timing.   I use the old tune up tools.  Fortunately these can be had on ebay.  Digital meter works as well.    I recall the first experience with points.  1973 Estate Wagon with 455.  Sputtering and no power. Opened the door on the dist cap and turned the adjustment for the points. Shazam!  The engine picked up, power restored and off I went to the auto parts store for a feeler gauge/meter tool.   Need to set it properly.       

 

Keep us posted! 

Edited June 22, 2018 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[Poppy's 55]

2 minutes ago, avgwarhawk said:

 

Definitely check the points and timing.   I use the old tune up tools.  Fortunately these can be had on ebay.  Digital meter works as well.    I recall the first experience with points.  1973 Estate Wagon with 455.  Sputtering and no power. Opened the door on the dist cap and turned the adjustment for the points. Shazam!  The engine picked up, power restored and off I went to the auto parts store or a feel gauge/meter tool.   Need to set it properly.       

 

Keep us posted! 

 

Thanks so much for all the advice Chris! I really do appreciate it. I'll come back to this thread and let you know how it goes.

[Ted "Wildcat65" Nagel]

I like the fuel pump idea, but also check out the rest of your fuel system...filter, tank, fuel lines.

Ted

[first64riv]

Where in Carlsbad are you located?  I work in the area, Palomar Airport/El Camino Real.

 

Anyways, congrats on the purchase.  I have a 64 Riviera with a 425 but I did the tune up thing when I first got it.  One major thing wrong was the timing.  I got that sorted after I installed my Pertronix ignition.  It ran a lot better after that.  Do you know the state of your carburetor as far as last rebuild goes?  I purchased a new Edelbrock because the previous owner threw the wrong carb on it to begin with.  That was an unexpected purchase.  Best of luck and I'd love to see the Century some time!

 

Chris

[EmTee]

Don't discount the possibility of a bad condenser.  Even if it looks 'new', others on the forum have reported many as being bad right out of the box.  Best available appears to be NAPA Echlin...

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

My money is on fuel.  May be as simple as a plugged filter. May be a loose connection somewhere in the line .  Try this. unhook the gas line at the carb. with some kind of a hose attached to the line running to a bucket, crank the engine for a few seconds.  Good flow? Bad flow ? consistent?   If bad, move the hose back up the line to the inlet of any filter and check again.

 

  Ben

[Poppy's 55]

18 hours ago, first64riv said:

Where in Carlsbad are you located?  I work in the area, Palomar Airport/El Camino Real.

 

Anyways, congrats on the purchase.  I have a 64 Riviera with a 425 but I did the tune up thing when I first got it.  One major thing wrong was the timing.  I got that sorted after I installed my Pertronix ignition.  It ran a lot better after that.  Do you know the state of your carburetor as far as last rebuild goes?  I purchased a new Edelbrock because the previous owner threw the wrong carb on it to begin with.  That was an unexpected purchase.  Best of luck and I'd love to see the Century some time!

 

Chris

 

Hi Chris, we are up by El Camino and Carlsbad Village Drive. Are there any active Buick clubs here? I haven't found anything in just the short time I've been checking. I sent an email to the guy listed for a San Diego Chapter and it bounced back

 

4 hours ago, EmTee said:

Don't discount the possibility of a bad condenser.  Even if it looks 'new', others on the forum have reported many as being bad right out of the box.  Best available appears to be NAPA Echlin...

 

Yesterday I changed plugs and reset the dwell, which was off, and futzed with the carb a but and it did run better. It doesn't stall anymore, starts immediately and idles well. I inspected the points, condenser, rotor and cap and they look brand new but I will definitely replace them. I am delaying  because I am considering going to an electronic ignition module. Not sue if I want to go the Pertonix route and replace the guts of my existing distributor or get a "ready to run" full electronic unit like an MSD..

 

3 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

My money is on fuel.  May be as simple as a plugged filter. May be a loose connection somewhere in the line .  Try this. unhook the gas line at the carb. with some kind of a hose attached to the line running to a bucket, crank the engine for a few seconds.  Good flow? Bad flow ? consistent?   If bad, move the hose back up the line to the inlet of any filter and check again.

 

  Ben

 

I think this is definitely a consideration and I plan to change the fuel filter today, although it looks to the naked eye to be clean and clear, fuel filters are the least expensive item under the hood so might as well.

 

I would love to get this sorted out myself but I have an appointment with a well know carburetor / tune-up shop in the area who does tons of work on classic cars and hot rods so I know it will be running good soon.

 

Chris, have you heard of Bob's Carbs in Oceanside? Really great reviews!

[Beemon]

I've had the worst luck with Pertronix and it's always left me stranded at inopportune moments. It works amazing for most but be weary that breakerless electronic conversions can fail and leave you stranded when you least expect it. 

[Poppy's 55]

So I changed the fuel and air filters and man were they dirty, yikes! The fuel filter was full of sediment so I may need to watch the new filter carefully to see if it's going to continue. Maybe rust from the fuel tank? I checked the timing and it looked too close to mess with. Best I can tell from online docs is it should be at 2.5 BDC. The motor has marks for "0, "5" and "10", so it is pretty close to between 0 and 5 (maybe a hair closer to 5 than 0).

 

I took it for a drive and I was so excited .... for the first couple of miles and then I took a hill and, sure enough, half way up when the car wanted to down shift, it bogged down and would barely run . I nursed it home. I think it's still somewhere in the carb. Maybe set too rich? I have no idea how to adjust this 4 bbl so I need to do some online reading I guess

[Beemon]

Adjustment on the carb is for the idle circuit only and will not help you with driving. If it is the carb, then it needs a thorough cleaning. 

[NTX5467]

In many respects, if it now runs pretty well with "points", save the ignition changes UNTIL everything else is sorted out WELL.  One thing at a time works best, from experience.

 

Probably need the tank removed and cleaned.  Even so, the "accumulation" can come from the fuel lines, too.  Watch that fuel filter.

 

As the car seemed to run fine "on the level", but had issues "on the angle", it could be something in the fuel tank causing that issue.  Especially if it still existed after the "load" became normal.  

 

Adjust the dwell first and the base timing second.  Dwell affects timing, so it should be adjusted first.

 

ONE thing to have your guy look at is wear on the cams in the distributor, where the points' rubbinb block contacts.  If there's wear there, the dwell degrees can be set to spec, but the point gap will be "off".

 

An electronic system should not have that problem, so things will act better.  MSD is not the same company it started out as.  It's been sold many times and possibly is a part of what was Colt Industries/Holley Carb.  Be that as it may.  With every set of points, there SHOULD be a small vial of "point lube" for the distributor cam/rubbing block areas, to decrease rubbing block wear for longer point life.  Many deleted that in the '80s and nobody noticed, especiallythose that didn't know that it should be there, which resulted in points not lasting nearly as long as they used to, before such wear would through the point gap out of whack.

 

The window on the distributor cap is really neat to have!  The "old days" method of adjusting points was to use the Allen wrench and turn it one way until the engine misses.  Then noting that position, turn it the other way until the same thing happens.  Note that position and aim for midway between the two "miss" wrench positions.  Pretty slick in a day when only "big garages" had accurate dwell tachs.

 

ALSO check ALL fuel lines on the vehicle, from the front fuel pump all the way to the rear (fuel tank).  They probably need to be replaced from ethanol exposure and age.  A simple investment in longer-term reliability.

 

Keep at it!

 

NTX5467

Edited June 25, 2018 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[first64riv]

Paul,

 

I  am not aware of any Buick clubs in San Diego.  I'm not really a club kind of guy.  I'm kind of an every man's car kinda guy.  I'm not even sure what that means...haha.

 

You know about Cruising Grand right?

 

I have never heard of Bob's carbs.  I haven't been around the classic car scene too long.

 

Glad to hear from you.

Chris

 

 

[EmTee]

17 hours ago, Poppy's 55 said:

he fuel filter was full of sediment so I may need to watch the new filter carefully to see if it's going to continue. Maybe rust from the fuel tank?

 

OK -- so now I'd really suspect the filter sock on the tank pickup is clogged with the same crap you saw in the fuel filter.  The real test would be to connect a temporary fuel source and drive the car (BE CAREFUL if you try this).  I think the next step is to drop the tank...

[Poppy's 55]

Hey, thanks so much everyone. Great advice. I will keep plugging away and report my results. 

 

Today is compression test day. Should be pretty quick considering the cylinders are so accessible on this thing!  I stick my head under the hood I get so excited with how much room there is.

[NTX5467]

For a temporary fuel supply, try the outboard motor fuel tanks in the sporting goods stores.  Usually a few gallons with fuel lines, some  lines even with a primer bulb.  Carefully secure it!   Just a suggestion.

 

NTX5467

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

On 6/23/2018 at 11:47 AM, Beemon said:

I've had the worst luck with Pertronix and it's always left me stranded at inopportune moments. It works amazing for most but be weary that breakerless electronic conversions can fail and leave you stranded when you least expect it. 

 

 So can points and condensers! 

 

  Ben

[Beemon]

1 hour ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

 

 So can points and condensers! 

 

  Ben

 

The difference though is with routine maintenance, you can see when the condenser starts to fail with heavy pitting on the contact set. And if they do need replacing, I can get them from the auto parts store versus waiting a week for a replacement ignition module. 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

38 minutes ago, Beemon said:

 

The difference though is with routine maintenance, you can see when the condenser starts to fail with heavy pitting on the contact set. And if they do need replacing, I can get them from the auto parts store versus waiting a week for a replacement ignition module. 

 

 You are right , of course. But I have NEVER had an electronic module fail. Not saying I wont. Just never have. And think Buick, and others, knew what they were doing when they changer over around fifty years back.  I had no problems with the Pertronix. I know others have.  I have gone even further. I had an HEI on my straight eight. Good performance. I now have had the original distributor modified with a HEI pick up and the GM  HEI module mounted on the firewall.  Not going back!

 

  Ben

[avgwarhawk]

I suspect your problems are now in the carb.  You took a hill after some great driving per your post.  Gas moves around in the bowl with incline/declines.  Floats may not be moving a freely as required, etc. Loading up and or not allowing to fill quickly.   The carb is probably suspect anyway and needs a good cleaning/rebuild.            

[avgwarhawk]

I have not had a points set up fail.  Knock on wood. I have had ignition modules fail. Tow truck is but a phone call away for either set up.    I stick with the points on my Buicks.   

[Poppy's 55]

So after more investigation the reality is that the fuel tank is corrupt. I ordered a new one from Summit which should be here in 2 to 3 days. But now I'm trying to decide if I should replace the entire fuel supply line. I have a source and for stainless steel it's $120, which isn't bad, but I just wonder if I really need to do that.

 

BTW, when I removed the tank and drained it was full of rust. Over a cup of material spilled out with the gas so there was much more still in there. I would have been chasing that issue for ever and replacing the tank is a cheap and easy fix.

[avgwarhawk]

40 minutes ago, Poppy's 55 said:

So after more investigation the reality is that the fuel tank is corrupt. I ordered a new one from Summit which should be here in 2 to 3 days. But now I'm trying to decide if I should replace the entire fuel supply line. I have a source and for stainless steel it's $120, which isn't bad, but I just wonder if I really need to do that.

 

BTW, when I removed the tank and drained it was full of rust. Over a cup of material spilled out with the gas so there was much more still in there. I would have been chasing that issue for ever and replacing the tank is a cheap and easy fix.

 

I have not had to replace the metal fuel lines in either of my Buicks.  The rubber portions of the system I have replaced with ethanol resistant fuel hose.  Can get at the auto parts store.    What fuel pump do you have?  Running the standard or switched to electric? Or both are still there pumping fuel?   Look to rebuild the carb.       

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

I am with Chris. If you have access to compressed air, blow it out. If any rubber lines have not been replaced, be a good time to do so. They like to collapse inside.  Also, when replacing the tank, to avert any bad ground for the level sender, give it its own ground. A good precaution.

 

  Ben

[old-tank]

Replace the fuel line, but stainless steel is over-kill and hard to manipulate.  Consider NiCopp tubing for all your needs.

[Poppy's 55]

1 hour ago, avgwarhawk said:

 

I have not had to replace the metal fuel lines in either of my Buicks.  The rubber portions of the system I have replaced with ethanol resistant fuel hose.  Can get at the auto parts store.    What fuel pump do you have?  Running the standard or switched to electric? Or both are still there pumping fuel?   Look to rebuild the carb.       

 

46 minutes ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

I am with Chris. If you have access to compressed air, blow it out. If any rubber lines have not been replaced, be a good time to do so. They like to collapse inside.  Also, when replacing the tank, to avert any bad ground for the level sender, give it its own ground. A good precaution.

 

  Ben

 

So this is my course of action for now. I have already ordered a new fuel pump from Summit (mechanical BTW) and have about 20 feet of good fuel line sitting in my garage that I will use to replace everything that's there. I do have an air compressor (don't know how you could live without one) and various sized rubber fittings so I intend to pump air through the line to make certain it is clear. If, in the future, I still have sediment in my fuel filter, I will replace the entire supply line.

 

As far as grounding the tank goes .... there were 2 wires when I removed this tank. One was  obviously from the sending unit (which I also ordered a replacement) and the second one was just fastened to one of the mounting plate screws but goes forward with the sending unit wire. Are you suggesting to just cut that ground and reground it somewhere to the frame back by the tank. I haven't really investigated where that wire goes but it appears to go to the front of the car.

 

I am still debating what to do with the carburetor. It reportedly only has a little over 1,000 miles on it since this whole thing was rebuilt so what do you think about replacing all the fuel system components, as discussed, and just see how it runs before I either rebuild it myself, have it professionally rebuilt ($250 in these parts) or replace it with a new one ($350). I haven't rebuilt a carb since high school and never a 4 bbl (yikes, all those little parts!)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Paul, my experience is with a few years older. The sender on those have only one wire. It grounds through the tank and fuel line which attaches directly to the sender. Most [ all? ] replacement senders connect to the fuel line with a rubber hose, thereby losing the ground. Just a reminder to check. Sounds like you know what you are doing. Many do not.    Not suggesting cutting the wire. No such thing as TOO much ground.      Carry on.

 

  Ben

[NTX5467]

As for the rubber line at the sender . . . in the "World of Chrysler", circa 1966, they use a special fuel line clamp at the sender and the body-section fuel line.  It's two fuel line clamps with a section of metal between them.  At each end, the metal contacts the fuel line on one end and the sending unit on the other end.  Available in the Mopar Restoration industry, if not Chrysler Parts, I suspect.  On the other hand, you could "hard wire" it with two lengths of wire soldered to the two contact points, joined with a pair of wire connectors in the middle.

 

On the fuel sender . . . be SURE the ohms of the new sender match those of the OEM sender!  If not, the gauge won't read correctly.  Many of the sender resistors are not as universal as many might suspect.

 

In addition to the compressed air cleaning of the fuel line, after doing that, you might consider running some carb cleaner through it to wet-flush it for good measure.  Then air dry.

 

NTX5467
 

[avgwarhawk]

20 hours ago, Poppy's 55 said:

 

I am still debating what to do with the carburetor. It reportedly only has a little over 1,000 miles on it since this whole thing was rebuilt so what do you think about replacing all the fuel system components, as discussed, and just see how it runs before I either rebuild it myself, have it professionally rebuilt ($250 in these parts) or replace it with a new one ($350). I haven't rebuilt a carb since high school and never a 4 bbl (yikes, all those little parts!)

 

Nothing wrong with piece meal each repair until the engine runs well.   Replace all fuel components and see how she runs.   If she still grumbles and stumbles then the carb should be accessed for rebuild.  Keep us posted!     

[EmTee]

Consider simply disconnecting the fuel line at the carburetor inlet and assessing cleanliness.  If you don't see any rust residue, then the filter did its job and you should be good to go.