TKanekoa Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 (edited) Hello, My mother owns a 1972 Stutz that she purchased in 1999. We have run the VIN# and cannot find any information on this vehicle. The story is that a man that owned a car dealership in the small town we live in purchased it in Las Vegas and then had buyers remorse so put it on the show room floor of his dealership which is where she bought it. We have been attempting to locate him but haven't been successful. She was told that the vehicle may have been owned previously by Dean Martin but we have no way of verifying this. Thank you for any help you can give us. Edited June 16, 2018 by TKanekoa (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 (edited) Your Stutz was part of the revival of the Stutz name, achieved by modifying Pontiacs to turn them into Stutzes. I have never seen one, but from what I can find out, this was a sincere attempt to make a custom built luxury car. They were well built and very expensive. Today they have a certain following. A good one will go for quite a lot of money if you find the right party. But, and this is important, condition has a big effect on value. Since so much of the car was hand made, and parts not available, it is very expensive to fix one that is run down. Give us some pictures and maybe we can give you a better idea. Edited June 16, 2018 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 I recall those - were based on a Grand Prix but looks like a different rear end (thought original had a spare tire there) . Big Pontiac V8s in '72 had three bolt exhaust manifolds and were famous for leaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 The bodies were truly coachbuilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 Here's the goto source: https://www.madle.org/ebh.htm 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzcarnerd Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 55 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said: Here's the goto source: https://www.madle.org/ebh.htm The Standard catalog says these cost $24,500 in 1972 - a lot of money for the time I think. Unfortunately there is no info there on production figures. Having a basically standard Pontiac frame I guess mechanical bit swill be no problem. Re the Dean Martin connection there is a page which mentions him owning three, along with the VIN of his '72. https://www.madle.org/eregist.htm Seems not many cars had the tonneau trunk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 These Blackhawks were sold exclusively through Jules Meyers Pontiac in West LA. Each sale was handled personally by Jay (Jules) beginning with the first one to Elvis. Too bad Jay just passed away a couple years ago or I'm sure he could have enlightened you to the car's original owner. Obviously the owner name dash plaque is missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 Speaking of Jays....call Jay Leno....he might have to have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 14 minutes ago, keiser31 said: Speaking of Jays....call Jay Leno....he might have to have it. I assume your remark was tongue in cheek? I know of someone who had a fellow call him about a car, he told me it was "a lawyer for Jay Leno, since Jay didn't want to be identified".....which was pure conjecture of course. Jay can find his own cars, I'm sure, and I'd be willing to bet an ersatz Stutz is very low on his list, if on it at all... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 I have always had an interest in the Revival Stutz and all the Exner Revival cars. They are not significant as cars. They hold more of the period cultural value. The celebrity buyers, Las Vegas association, and Rat Pack image is the key focus. And that culture is becoming distant. I think at least three cultural shifts have overtaken that group. Dean Martin may even be less known that Don Martin in some groups. I liked both. There are pictures of a Stutz labeled The Car From Hell. I had my finger hovering over the enter key to buy that one. It is a Stutz coupe that was in a building next to a car that burned. That was about 12 years ago. I regret not buying it. Peter Madle of the Madle,org Stutz site recently told me that car is being completed. A maroon coupe claimed to be Dean Martin's sold for a little over $20,000 a year or so ago. It was a little shabby but now a bad deal. Before I bite the dust I will probably end up with one about like that. I have seen a couple nicer ones in that price range in the Hershey coral. They keep popping up, front nice to disassembled. A car that has been sitting around for 40 years has the potential to need as much as a project car. If you get a project car, at least you have control over all the work to be done. I would prefer that over a car where I get to find what some ingenious "mechanic" has done before me. And if no one has ever done anything, you have a project there, too. Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 I have a dealer friend that got a personal call from Jay. What people don’t realize is that he only has to pay 50% of what anybody else would. It is called the “Bill Harrah” effect. Seller gets to tell everyone he sold his car to Jay Leno, hence the discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikewest Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 46 minutes ago, alsancle said: I have a dealer friend that got a personal call from Jay. What people don’t realize is that he only has to pay 50% of what anybody else would. It is called the “Bill Harrah” effect. Seller gets to tell everyone he sold his car to Jay Leno, hence the discount. He wouldn't get the car unless he paid what I wanted. I don't see what the thrill would be... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 1 hour ago, mikewest said: He wouldn't get the car unless he paid what I wanted. I don't see what the thrill would be... That is you Mike and probably a few more guys here, but not the general public. How many cars are not for sale to the entire world until Jay comes calling? There are lots of stories about Bill Harrah getting a car that nobody else could get just because of who he was. I'm not saying Jay won't step up for something he really wants, I'm saying that being Jay means you rarely have to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 Btw, for the most part I'm not a huge fan of 70s cars. There are probably a dozen models I find interesting. But I really like the Stutz Blackhawk. Suits the era perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarlLaFong Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 I used to drive for the movie studios. Jack LaLanne had one. I would see it at his house whenever I had a delivery for him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 I believe this is a very interesting car, albeit in my opinion quite ugly. As mentioned, it does suit the time period perfectly, and it would be guaranteed to draw a crowd at any meet it could attend. If it's been sitting for a long time, I'd budget $5K for replacing seals, cleaning gas tank, rebuilding carb, and on and on....as to value of car as it sits, Hagerty says a perfect car is $47K, good car is 27K, fair car is 14K. Judging from that, I'd say the car in question is a 20-25K car. It would be very tempting, as an owner, to think it's worth a lot more, but I believe this car has a very limited market..... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarlLaFong Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 They always reminded me of Superfly's car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_S_in_Penna Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, alsancle said: I have a dealer friend that got a personal call from Jay. What people don’t realize is that he only has to pay 50% of what anybody else would. It is called the “Bill Harrah” effect. Seller gets to tell everyone he sold his car to Jay Leno, hence the discount. Sorry, Al, I have to say that's not at all true. A few years ago our regional newsletter did an interview with Jay Leno, and we specifically asked him about his acquiring cars for his collection. "Has having a well-known name been a help or a hindrance to your collecting?" It could work both ways, as a known well-off buyer may never get a good deal. His typical purchase is from caring owners, not dealers or auctions. Contacts are made personally, and often through clubs. He said he often pays a little bit more for cars than the going rate, but that he doesn't really mind, because he thinks of all the care and work that went into a person's restored car. Edited June 17, 2018 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 John, I'm not doubting Jay's sincerity in the interview, and perhaps it is not fair to lump him in with Bill Harrah, but if he was getting any deals would he publicize it? I think I would say exactly what he said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_S_in_Penna Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 He was very forthcoming with us in our interview. (I was the editor and author of that interview.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 So there were different types, and Dean Martin had a "humptrunk." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunsmoke Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 Fake hump-trunk, fake side exhausts, fake knock-off wheels, mis-matching front/rear bumpers, fake radiator shell/grill (rad is likely about 2' further back), all it needs is fake eyelashes. The original Stutz folks would not be happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 12 hours ago, alsancle said: I have a dealer friend that got a personal call from Jay. What people don’t realize is that he only has to pay 50% of what anybody else would. It is called the “Bill Harrah” effect. Seller gets to tell everyone he sold his car to Jay Leno, hence the discount. If he could really do that, you'd think he'd have a "Jay Leno Classic Car Emporium" to sell all the cars he bought at half price. I appreciate your experience, Alsancle, but I can tell you it matters not a whit who I sell to, here's the price, pay it or walk, or make me a close offer. Bill Harrah had a network of buyers, so often it was well after the sale that someone realized their car went to Reno.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 I don't think Jay Leno buys very many cars. He is notorious for never selling a car and I think by now he has pretty much every car he ever wanted, with a few very rare exotic exceptions. I watch his shows all the time. What I hear most often is " I bought this exotic car for a few thousand 20 or 30 years ago when you couldn't give them away. Now they want half a million for one, it's crazy" or " I got this car ( a run of the mill American car from the forties fifties or sixties) given to me by the original owner (or his heirs). When he got old he wanted it to go into good hands so he called me." When he buys a car these days it seems to be a brand new exotic like a Ford GT, McLaren, or the like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 Bill Harrah didn't always get good deals. One of the first "old car" people I knew of was Floyd Seeley from Holley, New York. Many remember him as Seal The Clown and his years of benefits for children and seniors. He took his young daughter to Fall Hershey with him in the mid-1960's. 1967 was the last year she went and passed away, very young, shortly after. Seal loved to tell the story of Bill Harrah coming to his space while she was tending to sales. Mr. Harrah was interested in a rare set of hubcaps and tried to get them for less. Seal said she told him that was the price her Dad put on them and that was what he had to pay. He relived that trip to Hershey for 40 years. I bought the contents of his garage in 2005. The old boxes were labeled "Hershey '67" and he told me that story and others about early Hershey while I loaded up. He passed away in 2007. They still have a "Seal The Clown Day" around here. Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8E45E Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 On 6/16/2018 at 2:59 PM, padgett said: I recall those - were based on a Grand Prix but looks like a different rear end (thought original had a spare tire there) . Big Pontiac V8s in '72 had three bolt exhaust manifolds and were famous for leaks. The Blackhawks were based on the Grand Prix, but the 4 doors (Porte IV) were based on the Bonneville: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?53951-Orphan-of-the-Day-08-24-1966-Duesenberg-1980-Stutz-IV-Porte Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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