Purchase Advice?

[SteakandEggs]

Hi, 

I've been a part of a Land Rover forum for years and know how well the forum community can be. I have been offered a deal on a 63 Riviera and have been dreaming of owning a 65 for ages but I think it might be a deal I can't pass up. If anyone can offer some advice on what to look for before I pull the trigger that would be great. I.E. prone rust spots, major frame issues, motor size preference, trans issues etc. She was last registered in 2008 and is far from perfect. From the 5 minutes I spent with her I diagnosed a need for floor pans, some rot behind the passenger door under rocker, a weird hole in the back of the hood and of course the obvious stuff like tires and other wear items. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated as this would be my first adventure in classic Rivieras.  

[60FlatTop]

What were the things that made you dream about a '65? You might be giving up some dreams for the sake of "a deal".

 

Non-air conditioned, wait til those roasting Texans on the forum see that.

 

Bernie

 

 

[SteakandEggs]

I'm a sucker for hidden headlights

[NC1968Riviera]

I am no expert, but based on your observations so far I see a lot of time and $$$$$ needed to get this car up to daily driver status and much more for a full on restoration. Unless you have the time and resources to invest in this particular car, it might be worth holding out for your dream '65 in better condition.

[48Super]

This car looks very rough to me. You will certainly have to spend much time and money to bring it back to life.  Personally, I believe the best approach is to find the nicest car you can afford because the cost of repairs and restoration add up very quickly. There are a fair number of Rivieras out there and if really want a '65, get a decent one and you'll be able to enjoy it right away.  The cost to bring a poor condition car up to reasonable standards will far exceed the additional initial cost of purchasing a better example. Don't be in a hurry, half the fun is looking for the right car. 

[Pat Curran]

You already noted the floor pan rust and I'll bet the trunk floor is bad as well.  The rear window leaks water into the trunk and based on the car sitting there for 10 years, it probably took its toll.  The brakes would need a complete rebuild and I would venture to guess the exhaust system is probably in need of repair and/or replacement.  The X frames on these cars are very stout so that might be OK.  The tilt steering wheel appears to be decent which is a plus and it also has cruise and power vent windows which are nice options to have but at the end of the day, unless you can get this car dirt cheap, I would rather spend the money on one that you can get in and drive.

[JZRIV]

Welcome to the forum.

Run! Run as fast as you can away from this. Even if offered to you for free.

[SteakandEggs]

I can get it for $500 

[NC1968Riviera]

10 minutes ago, SteakandEggs said:

I can get it for $500 

You could certainly make your money back quickly by parting it out!

[Eric's.64.Superwildcat]

Its most likely this is a parts car.  Be sure that is what you want to do with your time and your $500.  

[Seafoam65]

                            That is a parts car.......... buy it for 500.00 and then part it out.......it is way past restoring.

Early Rivieras that have set outside year after year might as well have come off the deck of the Titanic., and you can't buy new

sheet metal for these cars. Just to restore the interior in that car would cost more than a nice 65 would sell for. 

Edited June 15, 2018 by Seafoam65 (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

2 hours ago, SteakandEggs said:

I'm a sucker for hidden headlights

 

Hidden headlights, it ain't got.

[SteakandEggs]

Thanks for all the advice. I'm getting sad from all the folks saying stay away but I get it. Maybe it wasn't meant to be. we'll see

[steelman]

All 63s had the Dynaglide. 64 and later models were fit with the ST400. Most likely a 401. 425s were available late in the year and they didn't make many. Parting it will get your money back easy, if you are so inclined, but I have to agree, not a restoration candidate.

[RivNut]

You'll learn a lot just parting out a first generation Riviera.  Where it won't unbolt because of rust issues will tell what to look for on cars you consider buying.  As you find rusted panels, look for repos; you won't find them.  More clues as to what to look for on the cars you consider purchasing.   No a/c, Dynaflow transmission,  but it has power windows and the factory cruise control.  Everything under the hood are probably good cores for rebuilding.  

 

Could be a good learning experience.

 

Ed

[60FlatTop]

1 hour ago, SteakandEggs said:

I'm getting sad from all the folks saying stay away but I get it

 

If it is really driving you nuts to have it, buy it. I rarely take anyone's advice. I can't think of a car I was unhappy with. I just sold the ones I didn't want to keep.

 

The bad part I noticed is that you were willing to compromise a hidden headlight car for something real cheap. Don't head into starting a habit of that. You end up with a bunch of cheap stuff you, or no one else, wants. And wonder why.

My Wife says I am mean when I say "The cars on one wanted collected by the people no one wanted." Stick with the hobby, you will figure that one out.

 

Buy it and I guaranty the next Riviera you buy will be a lot better. Everyone told me not to buy a Jaguar. Every one I bought was better than the last one. Still haven't bought one good enough to keep. But that SEVENTH one is going to be waaaayyy better than the first.

 

Back in 2008 when we had the financial crisis I heard people couldn't get loans. So I filled out an online loan application for a fictitious used 2006 Jaguar. I got an email asking when I wanted the money. I called to tell them to cancel it. It sounded like an older woman on the phone. She warned me that those Jaguar cars didn't have a very good reputation. Now there's a bank (credit union) looking out for you like Mom.

 

The nice thing about cars; you can get one and you don't have to marry it. Looking back, my greatest, maybe only, regrets are cars I didn't buy.

 

Don't be sad. Don't post pictures. Don't ask specific questions. Make your advice request very general.

[rodneybeauchamp]

If I was in the market for a first generation Riviera, I would keep an eye on this forum. After a while you start to get a feel for what is worth buying and what you would walk away from.

 

By identifying a list of what you must have, and nice to have and doesn’t matter options in your chosen year and model, you can then focus on what you want.

 

I know when I started looking ( not on this site) I became very confused about the different interiors and options, until I found how to ID them on the data plate. I would strongly advise joining the ROA as their classifieds give you access to members cars for sale. 

 

And as mom would say, “ just be patient, the right girl for you will come along. “

 

There are plenty out there ........

just mtbw from down under

Rodney ??????

[TKRIV]

Buying the best possible Riv for a full resto goes double when you live outside of Nth America. You have to factor in the cost of shipping for parts. Soon shipping to Australia will be hit with a 10% goods tax. I would NEVER even consider doing a resto on a Riv if it wasn't even in good driveable condition to begin with. And when you start talking about cars that need extensive panel work due to rust you are really looking for a whole lot of work and frustration. Unless you already have the skills/time and enjoy doing it.  

I am currently 50% on total resto and have enjoyed almost every minute of the journey. All the parts I have bought from the USA have been of good or better quality and the advice from follow ROA members has be extremely helpful. I even had a home visit by Gordon Wolfgang! Great guy. You will see a lot of Gordon at Overland Park KS.

Thank You to every one who has helped me out.

Appreciative down under ROA member.

TomK

Edited June 16, 2018 by TKRIV
Typo (see edit history)

[ol' yeller]

The most expensive car i ever owned was a $300 1969 Riviera I restored.

 

[Scott Mckenzie]

. More of these cars have rust issues than not . Can you get it to start? Move? You cant beat the price and you will get your money back If you part it out. Don`t pay anyone to work on it if you can help it to keep costs down. Think of it as a learner car till you can find your keeper. 

 

[60FlatTop]

Around here a post graduate MBA goes for about $1500 per credit hour. Credits learned from buying an old car are not transferable. Lessons are more frequently repeated in the hobby than in school.

I think most do the equivalent of three basic 3 credit courses and then study the break even point on their own.

Bernie

[jframe]

DON'T give up on that 65! I wanted one since I was very small, and got this one 2 years ago when I was 46. Has 67,000 miles on it now and all original except paint. They are out there; don't settle for anything less than what you really want. Buy that 63 and save the good parts for your future 65.

[arnulfo de l.a.]

That  convertible 63 looks interesting.For sale ?

[RivNut]

8 hours ago, jframe said:

DON'T give up on that 65! I wanted one since I was very small, and got this one 2 years ago when I was 46. Has 67,000 miles on it now and all original except paint. They are out there; don't settle for anything less than what you really want. Buy that 63 and save the good parts for your future 65.

 

Good advice but one of the things you'll learn parting out the three different years of first generation Rivieras is that there's not too much in common.   About the only things off the '63 that might be of value for the '65 would be the glass, the door skins, radiator, and, if you get a '65 with standard interior, the seat frames.  Most of the interior trim is interchangeable but then you need to know which cars came with painted trim and which came with chromed trim.  All three years have unique to their year center consoles, shifter assemblies, transmissions, and a/c controls.  63 and 64 years share a bit more: fenders. doors, glass, bumpers, some exterior trim, grills, headlights, but not turn signal housings, etc. but they have their differences as well.  I had a '63 parts car that I was using for parts for my '64.  You'd think that door hinges would be the same - wrong.  I had to disassemble both sets of hinges and mix and match parts to make a good one.  You'd think that something with only three parts would be simple - wrong again as I found out.  In one year the door bolts to the hinge from inside the door, the next year it bolts on from the outside.  Even the chrome horse shoe moldings for the 63 and 64 are different - mounting tabs are in different places.  The brake drums are even different on the 63 and 65 if you try to use the hub that is riveted to the drum. 63 wheels will work on a '65 but not vice versa - the hubs are different sizes.  Which means the rear axles are different as well. but the center sections are the same.  And so it goes.  What I'm also getting at here is for you to be aware that not everyone selling parts on eBay for "63 - 65 Rivieras" knows what they have as well.  Check it out before buying. 

 

But as has been said before, you can probably get your money back from parts. And learn a lot along the way.  Once I had the '63 down to a tweaked   chassis and some unusable sheet metal, I still got money from the scrap dealer.  Be encouraged that you'll find that '65 of your dreams and learn some things along the way.  What you will find in common for all three years is the places where rust will form and that's what you want to know when it comes time to buy that one car you've been waiting for.

 

Ed

[TKRIV]

I totally concur with Ed's comments about the differences between years in the first gen Rivs. I had full access to a 63 parts car not far from where I live and came to learn very quickly how many parts don't carry over between years. Why make so many design changes on what is essentially the same model is beyond me. Only someone in the GM design & engineering dept. can explain such anomalies.

Design and Production changes eats into profits.

 

Agree with jframe that you have to be patient in finding your 65. Ray Knott gave me that solid advice 30 years ago. I was convinced that I would have to import my Riv from the USA. However I found the perfect Riv for me about 2 hrs drive from my place. It has lived all it's life in Australia by owners who looked after her. 95,000 miles and never been in an accident.

TomK

Edited June 17, 2018 by TKRIV
Typo (see edit history)

[jframe]

On ‎6‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 11:27 PM, RivNut said:

Good advice but one of the things you'll learn parting out the three different years of first generation Rivieras is that there's not too much in common.   About the only things off the '63 that might be of value for the '65 would be the glass, the door skins, radiator, and, if you get a '65 with standard interior, the seat frames.  Most of the interior trim is interchangeable but then you need to know which cars came with painted trim and which came with chromed trim.  All three years have unique to their year center consoles, shifter assemblies, transmissions, and a/c controls.  63 and 64 years share a bit more: fenders. doors, glass, bumpers, some exterior trim, grills, headlights, but not turn signal housings, etc. but they have their differences as well.  I had a '63 parts car that I was using for parts for my '64.  You'd think that door hinges would be the same - wrong.  I had to disassemble both sets of hinges and mix and match parts to make a good one.  You'd think that something with only three parts would be simple - wrong again as I found out.  In one year the door bolts to the hinge from inside the door, the next year it bolts on from the outside.  Even the chrome horse shoe moldings for the 63 and 64 are different - mounting tabs are in different places.  The brake drums are even different on the 63 and 65 if you try to use the hub that is riveted to the drum. 63 wheels will work on a '65 but not vice versa - the hubs are different sizes.  Which means the rear axles are different as well. but the center sections are the same.  And so it goes.  What I'm also getting at here is for you to be aware that not everyone selling parts on eBay for "63 - 65 Rivieras" knows what they have as well.  Check it out before buying. 

 

But as has been said before, you can probably get your money back from parts. And learn a lot along the way.  Once I had the '63 down to a tweaked   chassis and some unusable sheet metal, I still got money from the scrap dealer.  Be encouraged that you'll find that '65 of your dreams and learn some things along the way.  What you will find in common for all three years is the places where rust will form and that's what you want to know when it comes time to buy that one car you've been waiting for.

 

Ed

Ed, you are certainly right about all of that! I wonder why GM was treating this car like a Ford (part off a blue one won't fit a black one), lol. What I really meant was a lot of the engine parts may interchange as well as other hard mechanical parts. However, you are right about transmissions, hubs and so forth. Hard to believe a car that looks so similar for three years can be so unique.

[Seafoam65]

20 minutes ago, jframe said:

Ed, you are certainly right about all of that! I wonder why GM was treating this car like a Ford (part off a blue one won't fit a black one), lol. What I really meant was a lot of the engine parts may interchange as well as other hard mechanical parts. However, you are right about transmissions, hubs and so forth. Hard to believe a car that looks so similar for three years can be so unique.

What makes it even more puzzling is that the early Rivieras were low production cars 40,000 or less each year versus over 1,000.000 Chevy full size

cars each year were being sold. I don't see how they ever could have made any money selling the early Rivieras with all the changes they kept

making and the low production numbers to go along with it.

[jframe]

4 hours ago, Seafoam65 said:

What makes it even more puzzling is that the early Rivieras were low production cars 40,000 or less each year versus over 1,000.000 Chevy full size

cars each year were being sold. I don't see how they ever could have made any money selling the early Rivieras with all the changes they kept

making and the low production numbers to go along with it.

Not sure that they really DID make money, or at least not very much of it. Think about it; the Riv was a halo car, a showroom draw. Pretty expensive to buy and manufacture. Hopefully, people who saw one in the showroom might come out with a LeSabre, or at least a Skylark. Of course, that makes it all the more confusing as to why so little interchanged.

[RivNut]

Some of the changes I can see.  The different hinges in 63 and 64. It may have even been a midyear change.  Having to remove the door skin to adjust the door alignment?  Putting the head of the adjusting bolt I  the door jamb just made good sense.  Three different transmissions in three years? Perhaps we'll meet an engineer in the after life can answer this one.  Different sized hubs? Probably down sized to accommodate a register ring in the rally wheel. If you look at the brake drums, the hole in a 65 and later drum will accommodate a 64 and earlier hub. Tabs in different places on horse shoe moldimpngs? I've heard that in 64 the front tabs were moved forward because 63 horse shoe moldings were being bent in car washes. The one that will really throw you is the 64 and 65 A/C controls.  Identical on from driver's point of view, but inside there is one more vacuum nipple on a 65.  In 64, temperature was controlled via a mechanical cable; in 65 it was vacuum controlled.  The way door windows were attached from early 63 and later were different.  Early glass was pressed in, later glass was bolted in. And the list goes on. 

 

Ed

[60FlatTop]

34 minutes ago, RivNut said:

Having to remove the door skin to adjust the door alignment?

 Those were the first frameless windows used on a GM car and the glass was flat the only wat to assure a tight fit was to adjust them closed. Most GM pillarless cars got curved glass in '65. The Riviera was a carryover. Curved glass has its own inherent preload and didn't need the adjustment feature.

 

The bolt on skins would let water out. They aren't noted as rusty door cars.

[TKRIV]

And then you have electrical.

• Gas tank sender and gauge
• Fuse panel
• Ignition Switch
• Wiring harness & wire color coding
• Under carpet ribbon wire
• Head light Sw
• Printed Circuit Board
• Horn Relay

And the list goes on... Even the brake & park pads are different!

 

[RivNut]

1 hour ago, 60FlatTop said:

 Those were the first frameless windows used on a GM car and the glass was flat the only wat to assure a tight fit was to adjust them closed. Most GM pillarless cars got curved glass in '65. The Riviera was a carryover. Curved glass has its own inherent preload and didn't need the adjustment feature.

 

The bolt on skins would let water out. They aren't noted as rusty door cars.

That I know.  What I'm talking about is the adjustment of the entire door, at the hinges, to the jamb - getting the door square in the body and getting all of the gaps consistent.  Nothing to do with the adjustment of the window.

[Cornpanzers Riv]

Sent you a PM

thx

[Paul K.]

At $500 I would buy it. Not sure how bad the floors and rust is but  I've revived many like this. From what I can see it can be cleaned up and the paint buffed out. Put $500 in it,  new tires and brake hydraulics, and then stop. Sell the dream to someone else. Ask $4500 and go down from there. Consider your "profit" payment for your labor. Put that toward a '65.   if too rusty or it is not a good runner, part it out. 

Edited June 21, 2018 by Paul K. (see edit history)

[petelempert]

For $500... just buy it so you can putter around on it for a few weeks. These days, dinner and a movie is like $100 and that only lasts 4 hours. Live a little. PRL
 

[60FlatTop]

38 minutes ago, petelempert said:

These days, dinner and a movie is like $100 and that only lasts 4 hours. Live a little. 

 

I'm thinking about going to dinner, getting a girlfriend pregnant and a severe case of ptomaine poisoning ending up in intensive care. Seems like that would compare to the extended cost of the bargain priced cars "I" bought.  I know my Wife wouldn't be happy in either case.

Bernie