Help with Modern Car Problem

[edinmass]

6 hours ago, poci1957 said:

 

Hey Ed, that is an interesting business model that I do not think I have ever seen before, seems like a good idea.  Since it lasted 15 years would you say this model worked well for you?  Plenty of customer demand?  Tell us a little more, Todd C

 

My shop was mid size (sold out 9 years ago) and had five ASE certified tech's. (Not including myself, plus two Mass state. inspectors, three office people, and a clean up guy. We also ran a thirty car rental fleet and ran a used car lot.) Since they were all paid flat rate, they didn't want the tough problems. We were very busy, and I learned I could get jobs in and out faster if I diagnosed every problem that came in the shop, and I still paid my people the standard flat rate time as if they diagnosed it. It worked wonders, as I could get much more work through the shop, the parts were ordered as soon as possible, and it made almost all cars come in and out the same day. It improved my diagnostic skills and electrical skills because of the shear volume of work I was doing. In a busy shop a flat rate tech that is getting paid between 60-80 hours a week is a very happy guy. My guys never missed a 60 hour week, and 75 to 80 was the norm. We had two Mass inspection bays as well as a motorcycle inspection bay. We were very busy with under car. My skill set along with two other close friends who would come over and help as an on needed basis, allowed me to do the no charge if no fix. We had all the work we could handle. It was also a much diffrent era in repairing cars then VS today. Cars today are better, brake down less, and overall much easier to deal with today. We saw lots of the same thing back then, much more so than today. We could usually beat flat rate by half most of the time. We warranteed all our work, never ran from problems......and believe me when you fix hundreds and hundreds of cars a month, lots of things pop up. (Probably not things you would expect.) We stopped taking on most new customers as we were just running 100 percent all the time. Back in the late 90's for example, my best Tech made 6 figures, working 5 1/2 day a week. It was a great time to be in the business. I wouldn't want to do it today, and I don't think its possible to use the model we ran our business with then in todays world. I remember my shop days with nothing but positive experiences, but todays young people who tend to service cars don't have anywhere near the work ethic that was around back then. After I sold out I did dealership work, after hours on the stuff they couldn't fix, and I offered them the same deal, no charge if I didn't fix it, and I just got tired of it and stopped. Now I spend my days working on the great motering legends of the pre world war two era. No time deadlines, no budget issues, I'm just allowed to fix everything to the best of my ability, and keep ahead on the preventative matainence. 

 

PS- As busy as we were, we only would see a problem like the one above every 4 to 6 months. Remember a Tech only gets paid 45 mints +/- for diagnostic time even if he spends three days working on the car. That time is fine it it is a standard run of the mill issue. Crazy computer and electrical problems just don't pay the flat rate guys anything, so they don't want to fix it. Its perfectly understandable. Thats why some of the best shops have a deal with their help that the hard problems are worked on collectively, or by an hourly or salaried employee. The problem of the mini van in this thread is its so extensivly modified, and electrical diagrams may not be available for the modifications, assuming they were installed correctly. Thus, you have a car with a difficult intermittent problem, on a heavily modified platform, on a car thats half Chrysler and half Mercedes, with flat rate tech's, and you wonder why everyone wants to pass the buck? The system works well for routine problems and matainance, get a crazy problem and no one wants to know you. And trust me, the dealer wants nothing to do with this car, nothing at all. Ed

 

Padgett correctly referred to enelabing criteria, drive cycles, and pending and set codes. All things someone with a college education with a background in electricial engineering, computer programing, and a host of other talents are required to properly understand to work through the insane problems one sometimes sees. The fact is, someone who is smart enough to fix the car........is smart enough to not want to be fixing cars in the first place regardless if he has a formal education, or went to the school of hard knocks.

 

Edited June 19, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history)

[TerryB]

Thank you all for the inputs, they are helpful.  

Today we got the van back.  At no time did it exhibit any bad behavior while in the shop.  The fuel gage shows they did indeed drive it a lot while they had it.  The tech did make a change.  He added insulation around the fuel line with the thinking the van mods to the floor caused the fuel lines to be too close to the exhaust and possibly causing the fuel to boil on hot days.  He said the car will experience a lean condition when that happens and then request more fuel which then overwhelms the engine making it run rough.  Who knows, it might  be true.  The charge for this was minimal considering all the time they have in it doing diagnostics and driving.  Wife said it ran fine on short trip back from repair shop.

 

So we will see.  It’s still early for summer heat.  I’ve been keeping score on what seems to make it act up and just when you think you have it understood some new glitch comes into play.  If I’m lucky this will be last post on this topic.  I will be quite happy if it is!

Terry

[edinmass]

Terry, unfortunately the fuel line insulation won’t help. The car has an electric fuel pump in the tank, which means the fuel pressure is not the problem, as the tech was possibly thinking vapor lock, which is impossible with that power train management system. I’m sure it’s running between forty and one hundred and twenty five psi depending on the fuel management system, thus, there is NO way it’s a vapor lock problem. They can run a fuel pressure guage and tape it to the windshield to monitor the pressure. I’m quite sure that’s not the issue from what I have been reading here. It’s impossible to get vapor lock with E10 as long as you have more than five psi. Ed

[TerryB]

Yes, I was not 100% on the fix either but in the world illogical problems there is not much to loose.  We’ll see.  There are so many things I would try personally if I could but that’s not an option.  

[padgett]

BTW "The correct fuel pressure for this vehicle is 58 psi +/- 2 psi. " It really helps to have your own service manual, this one is on my PC.

 

Misfires may set a code but the secondary ignition (coils, plugs, wires) usually does not. Just a general rule of thumb, electrics sometimes heal when cool off, mechanicals rarely do.

 

It might be possible to either replace your drivetrain or move the lift equipment you have to another van for reduced cost. I suspect it either has a 200+ A alternator or dual alternators. The reference to "kneeling" sounds like it is bagged.

[ol' yeller]

13 hours ago, padgett said:

 The reference to "kneeling" sounds like it is bagged.

You'd think so as did I.  I haven't crawled under ours but it isn't bagged.  There is an electric motor that compresses the right rear spring to lower the floor to make it easier to enter with the wheelchair.  Ours is a Toyota but I looked at the Dodges and they were the same.

[TerryB]

1 hour ago, ol' yeller said:

You'd think so as did I.  I haven't crawled under ours but it isn't bagged.  There is an electric motor that compresses the right rear spring to lower the floor to make it easier to enter with the wheelchair.  Ours is a Toyota but I looked at the Dodges and they were the same.

Mine is bagged.  It has air bags in the rear suspension.  The passenger side bag is deflated and inflated independently of the driver’s side when the ramp is deployed.  Both bags are controlled to maintain ride height.  I have heard some use hydraulic and some use brute  force to pull down the suspension to do the kneel feature.  Our van has a switch to disable the function when unloading on to a curb.  All have their strengths and weaknesses from what I hear.

[edinmass]

Terry.......by the way do NOT put anything in the gas tank except gas. Fuel injection cleaner, engine rebuild in a can, tune up in a can, what ever they call it NEVER put anything in the tank except pump gas. Too many times I have seen desperate people dump that stuff in the tank, and it can not fix anything, but it sure can make it worse. One of my customers put five gallons of fuel injection cleaner in his tank once. You don’t want to know what happened and how much it cost to fix. Ed

[TerryB]

Ed, last year when the dealer said we had bad fuel he put a can or bottle of some kind of fuel elixir in the tank at a cost of $10.  He said it was a Mopar brand product.  I do my best to avoid that type of stuff.

[padgett]

Probably either StaBil or Alcohol (remember gas line antifreeze ?) Should be on the receipt.

 

Gotten any further in finding a correct scanner ?

 

BTW where are you ? May be someone local to help.

[TerryB]

I’m in Lititz PA about 20 miles east of Hershey.  Will be taking the beast out tomorrow for a test drive.  Tech at independent shop had a snap-on scanner.  Not sure how they compare to the rest.

[ol' yeller]

22 hours ago, TerryB said:

Mine is bagged.  It has air bags in the rear suspension.  The passenger side bag is deflated and inflated independently of the driver’s side when the ramp is deployed.  Both bags are controlled to maintain ride height.  I have heard some use hydraulic and some use brute  force to pull down the suspension to do the kneel feature.  Our van has a switch to disable the function when unloading on to a curb.  All have their strengths and weaknesses from what I hear.

That is interesting.  Ours is  a Toyota and older (2004).  The Dodge we had loaned to us was also the same vintage and operated the same way.  Evidently things have changed over the years.   Ours also has a switch to turn off the feature when desired.  

[TerryB]

1 hour ago, ol' yeller said:

That is interesting.  Ours is  a Toyota and older (2004).  The Dodge we had loaned to us was also the same vintage and operated the same way.  Evidently things have changed over the years.   Ours also has a switch to turn off the feature when desired.  

The moderators don’t like us mentioning names so I believe your van is a conversion by a company whose first letter is B.  They use the chain and electric motor to lower or kneel the van.  They still use this method today and strongly recommend having the chain and motor inspected twice a year as improper maintenance can cause failures in the system that are expensive to repair.  Check their website for details.  This company seems to be the largest van conversion operation.

 

The modification company whose first initial is V uses hydraulics to do the kneel feature and our van whose modification company begins with the letter A uses airbags supposedly sourced from Mercedes Benz.  Our ride height sensor system failed once.  The van would raise and lower itself driving down the road.  Exciting to say the least!

[ol' yeller]

Actually our conversion was done locally to the Greater Seattle area and it starts with an "A".  I think the actual lift is made by "B" and it uses the chain and motor.  Funny story was that while I knew our van had this feature, it never operated when the ramp was deployed.  One day my 3 year old grandson got into the van for about 45 seconds unsupervised.  Then all of a sudden, the van started kneeling every time the ramp was deployed.  It took some careful reading of the owners manual to discover the on/off switch in the dash to control the feature.  My grandson discovered it in less than 45 seconds.  It is a feature we really don't use much as my wife has a powered chair and the incline of the ramp isn't an issue.  I will only take the van in for service if something is not working.  At 14 years of age every time I brought it in, they tried to talk me into buying something newer, telling me how old and antiquated our van is.  I figured for $74K I could do a lot of fixing. So far, after a year, my method has proved out!  Besides, I thought Toyotas ran forever!

[TerryB]

A 10 mile loop around home went fine yesterday.   Sunny day with air Temps about 80F.  Had about 1 hour layover between going to destination and return trip.  Certainly not a reason to declare it fixed.  A few hundred more trips like that will be required for me to do a victory dance.

[Real Steel]

Three response pages of help.  Way to go AACA folks!

[TerryB]

Ok, the honeymoon is over.  After a handful of decent running days, and they were decent with no signs of any running issues, the beast is back to rumbling and growling again.  It’s running rough, feels like some cylinders are misfiring, and is doing this while fully warmed up which is a new event.  Took it back to the independent garage so they could see it in action.  Lots more confusing data but NO check  engine light.  They get it back Monday.  The saga continues.

 

I think it’s time to yank the engine and put in a slant 6.

[edinmass]

Next time it runs rough, place it in neutral and rev it up a bit.......see if the running issue still occours. You need to isolate this more.......is it a transmission or powertrain. Running poorly like you describe without setting any codes is unusual. A five gas machine in the tailpipe while misbehaving will tell you lots.......but few shops have them. I cant live without one.

[TerryB]

Car in gear but not moving, just running at idle makes it run rough, in Park it’s still noticeable but not as much with no load on engine.  Giving it gas in either mode helps some.  Car has 4 O2 sensors, a pair for each bank.  Yesterday tech says one cylinder bank is running leaner than the other based on scanner data. Car is haunted!

[Bud Tierney]

Ever since finding this thread, something (from years past) about a poorly running Dodge Van, that no one could cure, has been nagging at my mind; dug out and am going thru clippings from on old "Can't Someone Fix My Car" newspaper column. haven't found the one I remember, but did find a couple others...

Intermittent/phantom  operating problems; cause---decayed soldered instrument cluster connections  (98 Dodge Caravan)

Same; cause---bad module connection feeding intermittent bad signals to Chrysler Collision Detection System (a Multiples module that receives signals from all the various modules and prevents the  signals from various modules "colliding", it says). This CCD. is supposedly unique to Chrysler Corp (general piece 1906).

Will post if I find anything else sounding possibly applicable.

.Don't know electronics, or if yours has either of the above types; do take a look at the IATN website, as it should have a locater for member shops.

[TerryB]

Van is 2013 model with just a little over 26k miles on it.  The engine problems are incredible considering all the electronic ways the brain of the car can be picked and hopefully diagnosed.  It’s no wonder simple cars from 80 years ago still run and drive while the latest and greatest defy the efforts of talented people to figure them out.

 

I can only hope that something eventually triggers the path to solving the problems with it.  

[DAVES89]

I talked to a Chrysler mechanic friend of mine and he had some thoughts. 

 1] Are you using Flex Fuel? You bought the car with 10,000 miles on it and have driven the car about 4,000 miles a year. You are not going through gas fast enough to be using Flex Fuel as it breaks down too fast.

 2] The head you had replaced was a warranty replacement, there is no provision yet by Chrysler to have the other head done  This is confirmed that per your mechanic one side of Oxygen Sensors are burning leaner then the other side. He thinks you have carbon build up on the original head because you may be doing mostly frequent short mile trips.

 3] Are you running your A/C when the car starts acting up?

 He thinks it is a fuel issue and if you are running Flex Fuel... Stop. Run this tank down [to between 1/8-1/4 tank] and fill it with non ethenol fuel [premium] and add two cans of STP Fuel System/Injector cleaner. Take it for a 100 mile or more trip to get the system to clean out. If it still acts up turn off the A/C to see if that is causing the symptoms you desribe.

 Hopefully if this clears it up, if it does continue to run gas that is NOT flex fuel [Can have ethenol, he runs mid grade]. If it doesn't get better have the fuel system professionally cleaned and have all four Oxygen Sensors replaced.

 Just like your original mechanic stated that you have a fuel issue, so does my buddy.

 

[TerryB]

Thanks for helping out Dave! We use standard regular fuel in our area which is 87 octane with 10% ethanol.  No flex fuel ever used during our ownership. As for the A/C it is on sometimes, I’ve been watching that too.  Seems like it does it with or without.  Big issue for me is wife does not want to drive it when it’s acting up hence low mileage and it literally has spent weeks at local Dodge dealer during first 2 years of ownership.  Latest code it generated was multiple cylinder misfire.  The independent shop called yesterday to say everything is running fine right now.  I will be calling them shortly to discuss what to do next.  The warm air twist is confusing.  Car ran perfect all fall, winter, and spring.  Summer is its downfall.

Terry

[padgett]

Aside from being the rong forum for modern computer cars (lots of information on Jeep Garage). I suspect you need to log what it is doing when it happens: to do that I use Torque Pro and a Bluetooth dongle - under U$15 on Amazon and has logging capability.

 

That will get you started but for the deep down parameters you need something like an Autel DiagLink withChrysler module.

[TerryB]

I would guess 99.9% of the people on this forum also drive a modern car hence the question here and a desperate state to seek help from someone who might have encountered the problem.  I really can’t do much on my own given a t11 complete spinal cord injury.  Sucks to have to say that but it’s how it is.  Just searching for ideas.  Appreciate any and all help given so far.

[DAVES89]

My mechanic friend called me up this morning. He has a 2013 and he also experienced the problems you are stating. He thought his issue was fuel and so I passed his thoughts on to you. Well he came up with a resolution to his issue. His misfire was a coil pack. There are 6 coil packs [one for each cylinder] and he had a bad one. Now his car runs great.

 I read back over your posts and saw that you had a misfire on cylinder 2. Maybe that is your issue. Something to check out.

[TerryB]

Thanks Dave!  We are still in the testing mode with fuel or fuel pump as a possible issue.  Had it out yesterday and it only did one stumble while idling at a long red light.  Again, appreciate your input!

[edinmass]

It’s not gonna be fuel, and fuel pumps are almost never intermittent. Fuel pressure regular could be, but very doubtful. People grasping at straws. Diagnose the problem, it isn’t easy, but guessing won’t fix it. I think the first thing I would do if I got my hands on it is look for an intake leak of some type. There are lots of ways to eliminate a vacuum leak, but that is where I would start. Stychometry issues will cause random misfire codes all over the place. 

[mike6024]

10 hours ago, DAVES89 said:

His misfire was a coil pack.

Ignition problem is the most likely. Rough idle, sounds like misfiring. And it ran well for a while and is back to misbehaving. So bad fuel delivery would not do that. Faulty ignition system could though. Bad coil pack or a wiring problem, like loose electrical connection.

 

And here are some common symptoms of bad ignition coil:
Backfiring. The backfiring caused by your vehicle can indicate the symptoms of the ignition coil failure in its early stages. ...
Fuel Economy. ...
Engine Misfiring. ...
Vehicle Stalling. ...
Engine Jerking, Rough idling, Poor Power.

Edited July 14, 2018 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[TerryB]

My thoughts:

Ignition, fuel ratio, fuel pump pressure varying.  No codes generated on last bumpy issue on Thursday’s outing.  It just needs to misbehave long enough to catch it with a scanner.  

Edited July 14, 2018 by TerryB (see edit history)

[TerryB]

I should add the last code generated just before taking it to the garage was multiple cylinder misfires (again).  That is the current thinking behind fuel issues.