Morgan Wright Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 (edited) OK now that the shop is done I can start working on getting the E-49 unstuck. First thing------> to isolate the water pump/generator shaft by pulling the drive gear: Open the timing gear cover and find that the fiber timing gears are flawless and have no broken teeth whatsoever. They are too flawless, they can't be fiber. Whack them with my wedding ring, they are metal. Go get magnet, they are strongly ferro-magnetic, all 3 of them. So, are these steel timing gears some sort of aftermarket gears that somebody bought in maybe the 1920's? The teeth are perfect and I'm sooooo glad that they are not decomposed and none of the teeth are broken, that I really don't care if they are louder than fiber, I'll just turn the radio up louder, if they had radio in 1918 (The US Navy still had control of all bandwidth until 1919 when they gave it to GE when they started RCA in 1919). OK so no radio, I'll sing while my wife plays blues harp. Edited June 16, 2018 by Morgan Wright steel not iron (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted June 15, 2018 Author Share Posted June 15, 2018 I see that the crankshaft gear tooth with the punch mark is exactly lined up with the punch mark in the tooth-gap of the camshaft gear. What are the odds of finding this on a seized motor that has sat for 80 years? Did somebody turn the motor until the two punch marks were lined up, and left it that way until it sat so long it seized? This is too weird. And I notice that on the water pump shaft gear, the holes for the key are not lined up, and there is no key in it anyway. Without the key, the water pump shaft would slip. This is a job for Sherlock Holmes and Watson. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 My E-45 also has steel or iron gears like that. They are noisy. Without the key, if the shaft slips you also loose ignition timing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted June 16, 2018 Author Share Posted June 16, 2018 Good news. Water pump shaft moves smoothly and easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted June 22, 2018 Author Share Posted June 22, 2018 The 1918 E-49 has steel timing gears. That's the spare motor. What about the one in the car I'm fixing, the 1917 E-49? Today I opened it up. Guess what? It has steel timing gears too. Now to pull the water pump gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted June 22, 2018 Author Share Posted June 22, 2018 Better pic, you can see from the deep center punch hole in the middle of the end of the shaft, that the gear had already been pulled before. Probably to swap out the fiber gears for steel. The other engine didn't have that punch hole, which means it was the original gears. I notice there is no key in the slot, but at least they are aligned, maybe I'll put a key in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted June 23, 2018 Author Share Posted June 23, 2018 Bad news. Can't pull the gear. Gonna have to remove the water pump and shaft assembly by driving out the taper pins under the packing nuts. How much you bet the pins won't be in a position where I can swing a hammer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 I have had to torch a water pump shaft to get that assembly appart. If something has to be sacrificed, that shaft is the easiest to replace. Better than breaking something hard to find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted June 25, 2018 Author Share Posted June 25, 2018 On 6/23/2018 at 10:05 AM, DonMicheletti said: I have had to torch a water pump shaft to get that assembly appart. If something has to be sacrificed, that shaft is the easiest to replace. Better than breaking something hard to find. I got the two taper pins out. One at the generator to detach it, the pin was facing the wrong way but I was able to grab the head and pull it back with a hammer puller. Once released from the generator, I was able to push the shaft towards the gear case because the timing gear case was already open, and turn the shaft, but only after detaching the water pump housing from the block, because the pump was seized. The other taper pin was in the front, I had to remove a packing nut (reverse thread), and take out 2 cap screws and a bearing, and the taper pin could be turned to the right direction to just drive it out with a driver and hammer. I guess I got lucky. The water pump is stuck, I am going to fix it now. I don't know if the generator is stuck, haven't tried it yet. When I get a chance I'll try to turn the engine over to see if it's still seized. Maybe it was just the water pump, I'll see when I have more time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 The photo in post #6 tells us a lot of things. These cars did not come from the factory with fiber camshaft gears. That is not a punch mark in the center of the shaft. That is a machined center from when the shaft was initially fabricated. I'm willing to say that that gear has never been off the shaft and that the keystock is still in there from the day that the gear was pressed on the shaft. Clean things up and you will find that the keystock is in there. Take a small finish nail and stick it in the square and if the keystock is missing you will know it immediately. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted June 25, 2018 Author Share Posted June 25, 2018 Actually, that's a gear puller mark. I know because in the picture of post 1, there is no center punch or puller mark or machined center mark, or any mark at all, but after I pulled the gear, it left a deep gouge in the shaft, similar to the one in the other car, in the pic of post 6. The tip of the gear puller is hardened steel, and very hard. The shaft is mild steel, and the amount of pressure exerted by the gear puller is very severe, I used a 3 foot pipe on the wrench before the gear popped, must be hundreds maybe thousands of pounds of force. The mark I left looks like that, I'll take a pic and post it. My first attempt to pull the gear was off center and left an off center gouge. Failed to pull the gear. Second attempt I made a center punch and using hammer wrench on the puller, cursing, failing that, then jumping on the pipe, around the 10th attempt finally got it off. It gouged into the steel like post 6. Let me get my camera and show you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted June 25, 2018 Author Share Posted June 25, 2018 Here's a pic from when I was trying to pull it, after I left the puller marks but before I got it. These marks look the same as the pic in post 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 Morgan, you removed the shaft the correct way. Can you get the assembly in a press and press the gear off? On the engine where I torched the shaft (it was rusted beyond use), when I finally got the pump apart, I found that there was only 1/2 of the impeller. The lower half was rusted away. I did salvage the pump body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted June 25, 2018 Author Share Posted June 25, 2018 I think I can get the pump moving without pressing the gear off. I took out the 6 screws that hold the pump together and found that only the pump side was seized, the cover side was not seized, and I was able to move the cover down the shaft a few inches to inspect the impellers. They look good. Some rust fell out but the impellers are solid, all around. I'm going to soak the pump side in vinegar a few hours and get it moving on the shaft. This is a pic of the incredible amount of rust I got out of the water jacket where the pump attaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 Will the engine turn now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted June 25, 2018 Author Share Posted June 25, 2018 Unfortunately, no. Here is a pic of the impellers I took today, before I started the vinegar soak: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted June 26, 2018 Author Share Posted June 26, 2018 (edited) I unseized the water pump with vinegar and reassembled it. Tomorrow I put it all back together except the generator taper pin because the generator is seized. 1. generator connector. 2. taper pin for shaft/generator connector 3. packing nut, pushed back 4. bushing between shaft and front bearing, with taper pin hole, pushed back 5. taper pin hole in shaft 6. front bearing 7. gear, pushed forward Edited June 26, 2018 by Morgan Wright (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted June 26, 2018 Author Share Posted June 26, 2018 Fun picture. See that huge pile of rust flakes that I pulled out of the water jacket? Tomorrow after I reassemble everything I'm going to push the car into the driveway and stick a garden hose in the upper coolant pipe, and try to get more rust to come down out of the water jacket. Note that since these jughead engines don't have removable heads, there won't be any rust flakes collected near the valves, just all along the bottom of the jacket. But it's good to get all that out, once every 100 years. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 Knocking the 'freeze plugs" out and cleaning through there too would be good. Must be full of crud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted June 27, 2018 Author Share Posted June 27, 2018 10 hours ago, DonMicheletti said: Knocking the 'freeze plugs" out and cleaning through there too would be good. Must be full of crud. I stuck a garden hose in the upper pipe to drive more rust flakes down. All I got was clean water mostly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 The crap is heavy, laying in the bottom of the water jacket, and will not float out. To clean the block thoroughly, it needs to go through a hot tank or thermal cleaning. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted June 27, 2018 Author Share Posted June 27, 2018 That's true. Maybe later when I get it running I'll do a Thermocure treatment. But for now I got most of it. I made a video of the pump shaft job: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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