suggestions on repairing a hole in block

[jan arnett (2)]

I just had a major setback.  I hooked water to the engine to let water run through it while letting it run.  Engine ran for about 5 minutes and suddenly quit.  I noticed the oil float was down so I decided to change the oil.  Pulled the oil plug.  At first about two gallons of clear water came out then about two gallons of milky water and oil mixture.  Took valve covers off to see if I could see anything.  Hooked water up again an quickly found a hole.  I am open to suggestions on how to repair this on a 1929 Hupp.

 

 

[edinmass]

Stich it........doo NOT weld it, and JB WELD will fall off. It can be repaired in place with a talanted stitcher.

Edited June 4, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history)

[jan arnett (2)]

That is the best suggestion I have received.  I will forward it to My brother who is on the Hupp tour.  He completely rebuilt the engine and this is the first time he put water to it.

Have a nice day.  Jan

 

[DavidAU]

How do you stitch a hole?   I've seen cracks stitched and can understand the process but not sure how you do a hole. 

 

Wouldn't it be better / easier to put a stainless steel plate over it and drill and tap some fixing points in to the block as well as using a permanent type of sealant between the plate and the block.

[edinmass]

Usually the metal around the hole will be thin and in poor condition, the often time they will cut a larger hole and then stitch in a plate from another piece of cast iron. I have seen a sticher  cut a hole through a casting to get access to a internal crack, then stitch the piece back in place. Works fine, issue is the craftsmanship of the stitcher. I don’t use machine shops to stitch, I use a master craftsman to do my work. All he does is stitching and have learned if you have a crack, you probably have more than one. I drive a long way to get to the right guy, and would recommend you do also. The price of welding today and it’s better than 75 percent failure rate along with additional machining costs has long ago converted me over to stitching only. Good luck, Ed

[jan arnett (2)]

Ed thanks again.  Could you recommend a qualified individual.

Jan

[Friartuck]

Weld a 1/8 plate over the hole? Use Cronatron 333 welding rod (rated for dissimilar metals) from Lawson.

https://www.lawsonproducts.com/Cronatron/333-Dissimilar-Steel-Stick-Rod-Electrode/CW1049.lp

 

[nickelroadster]

I ddon't know what part of the country you are in but the LocknStitch company in Turlock CA does this kind of work and also sells stitching supplies to other workers.  They also do any kind of cast iron welding and they really know what they are doing.  Their prices are also reasonable.  If they are not in your part of the country, I am sure they could recommend someone for you.

[falconriley]

Epoxy. I have used it to keep oil and water in a couple of motor with no issues. I know of others who have too. Just has to be really clean.

Have a look at this. http://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/forum/phpbb/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19919&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

Matthew

[bradsan]

Here is a link to a good discussion on  similar issue.

Maybe there is something to the latest epoxy Curt is trying?

Brad

 

[george gohlike]

Crow welding river falls wi

[Friartuck]

Superweld in Farmingdale, NY

 

 

[jan arnett (2)]

I wanted to thank everyone for taking the time to provide a solution to the problem.  My brother is now back from the Hupp meet and is pulling the engine to make a final decesion as to how to proceed.

[edinmass]

If you want to use my guy..........who I believe is the best in the country, PM me and I will send you his info. He is located in Centeral Massachusetts.  He stitched 73 inches of a V-16 Cadillac block for me twenty five years ago ,and still fine. He is a  magician!

[29hupp]

I appreciate all the suggestions and have looked at the videos of the stitching and am not convinced that it is a fit for this application since the remaining cast ion is so thin.   The idea of using any two part mix epoxy product scares me because if it does fail I probably will not know until the engine is destroyed.   I fear welding, brazing, or even silver soldering could cause even more damage.  I am leaning towards a more mechanical patch on the hole that does not rely on adhesion.  I may coat the remaining surrounding surfaces with a high end JB-weld type of product for added protection.  I will post pictures of what I hope to be a successful repair.  I have chipped away the paper thin areas and now have a hole that takes the appearance of a triangle.  I made a drawing of what I hope to do for a repair.  If the nuts overlap which I expect they might I will put spacers under two of them.  Comments from all are very much appreciated.

Dick Arnett

29 Hupp near Cincinnati

[DavidAU]

The only problem I can see with your solution is that if the block is that thin you may crack it when you tighten up the nuts.  I also dont think I would use a gasket between the plate and the block because it could deteriorate.  I would clean and dry the block with Brake Kleen or similar and use JB Weld as the sealant.  Lets face it , you never want to pull it off and the JB will stick to both surfaces and will reinforce the block.

Edited June 20, 2018 by DavidAU (see edit history)

[29hupp]

Thanks David I agree that JB weld would be better than a gasket and I surely hope I would never have to remove it.  

[edinmass]

Just now, edinmass said:

It won’t hold up long term, JB Weld has a different coefficient of expansion, you will never get the block clean enough. It’s a difficult problem, stitching will work, even if the have to remove a piece of the block ten times bigger than it is now. Experienced stichers  understand automotive casting design, know and understand the core box area, etc. After forty years in the hobby, I have learned that there are no shortcuts........that work. If the problem wouldn’t destroy the motor upon failure, I can see trying the JB Weld as a cheap and temporary fix......maybe even five years? But if the fix fails and ruins the motor, it’s not a repair worth trying. I agree never to weld on any block, ever. Maybe your best fix is find another block that is good, disassemble it, and then rebuild as necessary and install. Any which way you go, a correct repair will be time consuming and expensive, as I don’t think they can stitch the block in this case unless it is taken all the way down. Reguardless of what you choose, keep us up to date as to function after the fact. Good luck, Ed

 

[stakeside]

On 6/5/2018 at 2:55 AM, edinmass said:

Usually the metal around the hole will be thin and in poor condition, the often time they will cut a larger hole and then stitch in a plate from another piece of cast iron. I have seen a sticher  cut a hole through a casting to get access to a internal crack, then stitch the piece back in place. Works fine, issue is the craftsmanship of the stitcher. I don’t use machine shops to stitch, I use a master craftsman to do my work. All he does is stitching and have learned if you have a crack, you probably have more than one. I drive a long way to get to the right guy, and would recommend you do also. The price of welding today and it’s better than 75 percent failure rate along with additional machining costs has long ago converted me over to stitching only. Good luck, Ed

 

 

I would be concerned of other areas. This appears to be result of corrosion in the cooling system and other areas of the block may be thin also.

[Paul S]

I do stitching. About 3/16" of thickness would be required to do a proper job. And yes a piece can be cut out and put back in.  Here are some photos of a recent repair I did on a 17 hp. Ruston Hornsby diesel engine cyl. head. Luckily the pieces were saved and could be put back.

 

Edited June 24, 2018 by Paul S (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

I can vouch for Paul's work.............Bob

[jan arnett (2)]

Thanks

 

[tcslr]

Contact the local union boilermakers.  In the power generation business, this is a 'tube leak' and a very common repair.

 

 

 

 

 

[29hupp]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions and I seriously considered most of them.  I finally decided to try and tap 10x32 threads a reasonable distance from the hole and put a patch with a gasket over the hole.  The thickness of the casting for all holes is about 1/8 inch.  Drilling and taping in the confined area was a bit of a challenge which added a couple additional tools to my collection.  I used a piece of 1/4 inch thick stainless with a  Water-Resistant Low-Pressure Rubber/Cork Gasket Material  rated at 235 degrees and a Loctite Gasket Sealant for Flexible Seals.  Attached is a picture of the repair.  It will take me a while to get the engine flipped back 180 degrees and back in for testing.  I also need to order some replacement gaskets.   

[edinmass]

Looks like you may get lucky........not sure using the thick cork is a good idea, but it's hard to tell from photos. If it holds a week, it will last a lifetime. Since it's hidden, I would check it every five miles till you get a feeling to see if it holds. Thinking through a problem is always the best solution. I would run water in the engine with cutting oil while you are testing the repair, to keep antifreeze out of the crankcase in the event of a leak. Good luck! Let us know how it works out.