Classic car auction reports

[1935Packard]

Some of us are fans of following the classic car auctions. Given that, I thought I would flag that Rick Carey has been posting his classic car auction reports for free over at his own site: http://rickcarey.com/

 

My recollection is that Carey used to write for Keith Martin's Sports Car Market magazine, and that he more recently (and until around a year ago) has posted his reports at SportsCarDigest.com. I only realized last week that he is now posting at his own site, and I figured folks here might be interested in knowing that they're available.  FWIW, I don't know Carey and I've never communicated with him; I've just enjoyed reading his auction reports in the past.

[Joe in Canada]

Seems the Full Classics are taking a beating. One example.

Lot # 1133 1932 Packard Twin Six Individual Custom Sport Phaeton, Body by after Dietrich; S/N 900362; Engine # 900353; Beige, Brown accent, Red coachline/Brown leather; Beige cloth top; Estimate $375,000 – $425,000; Rebodied or re-created, 2+ condition; With Reserve; Hammered Sold at $340,000 plus commission of 10.00%; Final Price $374,000. – Chrome wire wheels, wide whitewalls, Pilot-Rays, dual enclosed sidemounts with mirrors, rollup rear windshield with wings, dual taillights, trunk rack. – Reproduction body by California Metal Shapers for Dave Tobin in 1986. Excellent paint, chrome, interior and top. Chassis and underbody are better than new without going overboard. – Sold by RM at Hershey in 2015 for $440,000 and now showing just 25 more miles than it did then. It has obviously been kept in a benign environment and looked after even if it hasn’t been driven and represents full value for money in this transaction.

[Matt Harwood]

1 minute ago, Joe in Canada said:

Seems the Full Classics are taking a beating. One example.

Lot # 1133 1932 Packard Twin Six Individual Custom Sport Phaeton, Body by after Dietrich; S/N 900362; Engine # 900353; Beige, Brown accent, Red coachline/Brown leather; Beige cloth top; Estimate $375,000 – $425,000; Rebodied or re-created, 2+ condition; With Reserve; Hammered Sold at $340,000 plus commission of 10.00%; Final Price $374,000. – Chrome wire wheels, wide whitewalls, Pilot-Rays, dual enclosed sidemounts with mirrors, rollup rear windshield with wings, dual taillights, trunk rack. – Reproduction body by California Metal Shapers for Dave Tobin in 1986. Excellent paint, chrome, interior and top. Chassis and underbody are better than new without going overboard. – Sold by RM at Hershey in 2015 for $440,000 and now showing just 25 more miles than it did then. It has obviously been kept in a benign environment and looked after even if it hasn’t been driven and represents full value for money in this transaction.

 

It's a rebody. Always a guess as to what they'll bring. Sometimes they break out, but usually they don't. If it had been a real Dietrich Twin Six, it probably would have drawn a seven-figure result. People paying huge money (and $374,000 is still pretty big, but these days it's not huge, not by a long shot) won't put up with any demerits in a car's pedigree. For people who don't care, it probably represents somewhat of a bargain, relatively speaking. I recall a "bitsa" Duesenberg J dual cowl phaeton selling a few years ago for under $300,000. Engine from one car, transmission from another, reproduction frame rails, rebody, etc. Still smells like a Duesenberg, still drives like a Duesenberg, still looks like a Duesenberg, but not a Duesenberg that serious collectors will payto own. But if I had half a million to play with, that car would have been in my garage. 

 

I say it frequently: there are great cars with lousy pedigrees that represent great opportunities if you don't care about making money when you sell. And there are also crappy cars with great pedigrees for the guys who just like static art and hope to bank it later. The difference is the buy-in.

It's all relative. 

[1935Packard]

[UPDATE: I see Matt Harwood posted a few seconds before I did.  As Matt knows about a million times more than I do about these things, listen to him and not me.]

 

Joe, as someone who is looking to buy a Full Classic in the next two or three years, I wish they were taking a beating right now. My sense is pretty different, though: The Full Classic market seems overall relatively stable.   My general sense is that certain cars are relatively down (many 4-door sedans,  Lincolns, etc) and certain cars are relatively up (original cars, one-off customs, etc.) while the market as a whole is relatively stable.  

Edited May 31, 2018 by 1935Packard (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Auction reports are not quite as useless as appraisers. But a careful reading of sports car market will show that they miss critical details about why some cars sell for 400k and what looks like the same car sells for 1/2 the money.   Fun to read,  and maybe semi-useful, but not to be considered gospel.

[1935Packard]

2 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Auction reports are not quite as useless as appraisers. But a careful reading of sports car market will show that they miss critical details about why some cars sell for 400k and what looks like the same car sells for 1/2 the money.   Fun to read,  and maybe semi-useful, but not to be considered gospel.

 

Agreed.  My favorite is when two different sources report on a car, and one lists the condition as a "1" while the other lists it as a "3."   It's also amusing when one source says the values of a particular car are rising while another says the values are dropping.  Still fun, as you say, and I think you can learn a few things in the aggregate.

[Joe in Canada]

10 hours ago, Joe in Canada said:

Sold by RM at Hershey in 2015 for $440,000 and now showing just 25 more miles than it did then.

I was commenting that it sold $100,000. almost 25%  less than 3 years. Than there was another car at the same auction that also took a beating as this one did.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Joe in Canada (see edit history)

[kgreen]

In reading the description of the car in the bid tabulation, a common comment is something to the effect that the gaps are factory.  This is an odd statement to me as many factory gaps are uneven and that an (over) restored car has even gaps.  The writer uses the term as though factory gaps are desirable.  What is the writer trying to convey?

[Matt Harwood]

9 hours ago, Joe in Canada said:

I was commenting that it sold $100,000. almost 25%  less than 3 years. Than there was another car at the same auction that also took a beating as this one did.

 

I don't know if that really reflects the health of the market at large, but just that car at that moment with the buyers in that room. I have several well-to-do clients whom I've nurtured over the years and they started out just buying stuff they thought would be a good idea. One of them was snagged not once but TWICE by assembled cars and paid more than he should have simply because he didn't even realize they were not pedigreed cars (he really didn't even understand what that meant at that time in his career). He eventually sold them for a loss after he became more sophisticated. Another client simply buys cars he likes regardless of pedigree and keeps his hand up until bidding stops. Sometimes others will help push the car higher even though he's already decided he wants to own it. But he, too, has become more sophisticated and is cleaning up his collection--in one case he replaced a fake version of a car he bought early on with a real version that cost about six times as much. I'm not saying something like that happened here, but there are many reasons for a price to be unsteady and one of the least likely explanations is that the market is soft. Just as one car selling for a record price doesn't make all of them valuable, one car tanking doesn't mean the bottom is falling out. It's just one data point out of many and on a rebody, it's not hard to understand that the value will be very much tied to the room--how lucky does the buyer feel because getting his money back on a car like this is anything but a certainty. I hope the new owner will simply drive and enjoy it, future value be damned. I know I would.

 

19 minutes ago, kgreen said:

In reading the description of the car in the bid tabulation, a common comment is something to the effect that the gaps are factory.  This is an odd statement to me as many factory gaps are uneven and that an (over) restored car has even gaps.  The writer uses the term as though factory gaps are desirable.  What is the writer trying to convey?

 

I think the NCRS guys really pushed this, and much like "matching numbers" it has gotten a little out of hand. Corvettes are often dinged for over-restoration, a situation I applaud, but it's easier in theory than reality to make a car "perfectly imperfect." I also think a descriptor like this is a way of saying that uneven gaps are not necessarily a demerit nor do they make it a bad car. Hobbyist expectations today are WAY out of whack and virtually everyone has forgotten what production cars were like when they were new. To me, "factory-style gaps" says that they're not perfect but that the work was well done otherwise and that it shouldn't be viewed as a problem. "Acceptable" would be a good word, but not "perfect." People expect perfect these days, no matter what the car is. It's just not reasonable. I have a $15,000 VW Beetle convertible in the showroom that's really, really nice, and a guy came in and saw that one piece of rubber wasn't replaced and he just couldn't get over it. "Why would they go this far and not replace that?" I don't know. It doesn't hurt the car and unless you're driving it in monsoon season, you're not going to be affected by it, but he couldn't move on. It was as if perfect or trash were the only two options in his mind.

[Walt G]

In reading this (I have been off the forum for about 6 months due to some health issues) I think Matt has the right perspective on this and the proper words to make it easily understood.

Timing has a lot to do with it as well, Two years ago I bought the Packard I always wanted at auction, had one other serious bidder against me and wound up paying for the car what it would cost to replate and reupholster one if I already owned a similar car.

Some advice from me, don't wait forever (or next month  or next year or....) to do what you always wanted to do or own what you always wanted to own, tell those people who have been your friends that you sincerely appreciate them and their friendship. There will come a time when you won't be able to do that at all because for whatever circumstances you suddenly may not be here; I say this from my experience 6 months ago , just be glad you are alive and vertical.

[C Carl]

I am sure I speak for every one of us in saying welcome back, Walt ! You know we all are grateful for your well informed postings. I am one who always stops to "listen" to what you offer. May I be among the early wishers that you have the happiest most enjoyable upcoming birthday before "official" old age sets in for you next year. I will be 74 in a month, and had a series of devastating and life threatening health problems in my late 60s/early 70s. Yes, the experience can be an unwelcome, but enlightening and positive one. Very glad you are still among us, and BACK among US , treasured forum friend !!      -  Carl 

[1935Packard]

Welcome back, Walt!