ron hausmann Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 All, Learned of the existence of an unrestored 1918 Kissel Model 6-38 Gibraltar Roadster that was in a shed in Montana. It had been turned into a truck but they had thankfully kept the rear bustle and other parts. There are besides this one, one other Kissel roadster of this year that survives. This Montana car is very rough but has the only existing removable wood hardtop, with curved glass sides, that exists I believe. The engine is in very good shape with all plaques and parts there. Time for more carving! Ron Hausmann 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron hausmann Posted May 20, 2018 Author Share Posted May 20, 2018 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron hausmann Posted May 20, 2018 Author Share Posted May 20, 2018 What it looks like - wood top is removable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 (edited) Another “easy restoration”. ? Ron, you are hard core on your favorite marque.........I’m glad you ended up with that Coupe, and I’m sure it will be done correctly and tastefully. I’m looking forward to the restoration photos. Do you have a time frame for the first drive? ? Edited May 20, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dei Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 Wow! Very interesting car to add to your collection. Fascinating how things come out of the wood work (so to speak) when people find out your interests isn't it? I"ll bet the back story to finding this one would be interesting Ron including the transporting to it's new home. I won't say the usual quote but that IS quite the FIND! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Wetherbee Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 A challenging restoration, but that is a great looking and unique car to save! I am truly looking forward to reading about its resurrection. Thank you for sharing that with us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe in Canada Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 I would think the biggest issue is the curved glass replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 When the Coupe top is in place is the Roadster windshield still there too ? In effect looking through 2 windshields ? Greg in Canada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 Re curved glass...we are restoring a 1918 Rauch and Lang electric with curved side glass similar to the Kissel. Best price we can get on 4 pieces of curved laminated safety glass is $3100 for the 4 pieces. Hopefully Ron's glass is usable as is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 Curved safety glass is expensive, curved plate glass as used before 1928 may be easier. I know they make blown glass bottles in wooden molds. Wonder if you could bend plate glass over a wooden form? You would need a smooth polished wooden form of the right curve and a way to heat a piece of plate glass then bend it over the form. It should be possible to do this anywhere that has a suitable oven. And the cost would be closer to $30 than $3000. A glass blower may be able to help, especially if he can examine the original glass for clues to how it was made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron hausmann Posted May 20, 2018 Author Share Posted May 20, 2018 2 hours ago, 1912Staver said: When the Coupe top is in place is the Roadster windshield still there too ? In effect looking through 2 windshields ? Greg in Canada Greg, Yes the flat framed windshield remains. This curved glass set of corners is the only body style in which Kissel put these in. There are no factory pictures except the ones that I posted and this deteriorated specimen. that's why saving it is soooo important.! RON 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahartley Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 ^ Thankfully there are people like you who are capable and up to the challenge!....... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe in Canada Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 8 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said: Curved safety glass is expensive, curved plate glass as used before 1928 may be easier. I know they make blown glass bottles in wooden molds. Wonder if you could bend plate glass over a wooden form? You would need a smooth polished wooden form of the right curve and a way to heat a piece of plate glass then bend it over the form. It should be possible to do this anywhere that has a suitable oven. And the cost would be closer to $30 than $3000. A glass blower may be able to help, especially if he can examine the original glass for clues to how it was made. They would not licence it for the road up here without being safety glass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron hausmann Posted May 21, 2018 Author Share Posted May 21, 2018 Restorer, Joe, i believe that the curved glass corners on this specimen are damaged. One is much cracked as you see in the pictures. However, I have a glass blower / blacksmith artist buddy who will make these if I need. Not $3000, but much less. Here in Micjigan, if a car was originally equipped with materials (like plate glass or asbestos brakes) or unreliable systems (mechanical rod brakes) I have not had any problem getting them licensed. Even my Kissel Gold Bug with the very unsafe "suicide seats" is licensed because those were original equipment ! thanks, Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 Our customer is concerned about safety re the plate glass in the Rauch and Lang since he intends to drive it and wants laminated throughout. Thus the high price of the relatively large curved glass pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 I would be interested in seeing how a glass blower goes about making a curved glass window. Some curved plate glass is available for china cabinets but only in limited sizes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe in Canada Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 Last Aug. on the Vintage Tour we when to the Corning Museum and watched the glass blowers there . I would think they could answer any question on making curved glass or who can do it. By the way it was a fabulous tour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Man Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 I normally go to extreme lengths for originality... but plexiglass is much less expensive and it is easy to bend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 One of the curved windows in our car was indeed Plexiglas or Lexan. We didn't realize it until we started to remove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lahti35 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 4 hours ago, ron hausmann said: Here in Micjigan, if a car was originally equipped with materials (like plate glass or asbestos brakes) or unreliable systems (mechanical rod brakes) I have not had any problem getting them licensed. Even my Kissel Gold Bug with the very unsafe "suicide seats" is licensed because those were original equipment ! thanks, Ron I do thank our state for this small favor! Makes life a bit less challenging when dealing with the oldies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 Same here in Pa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 Try here if you want plexiglass....talk to Phil Staub....http://www.plastifabsd.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 Pierce-Arrow coupes through 1920 also had curved glass pieces adjoining the flat windshield. Pierce collector-restorer Pat Craig in Stockton, CA has restored several of these and may have some curved glass replacement information. Please PM me if you want his contact info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 Plexiglass is an easier and safer alternative. It can be bent by heating with hot water and bending over a form. You can make a wooden form covered with felt and do the bending in the bathtub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron hausmann Posted May 21, 2018 Author Share Posted May 21, 2018 All, It's not the curved glass / plexiglass that deters me - it's the year of solid hard work that it will take to carve all of the wood out of oak and ash to replicate the original. I have done this in a total car just once before, in getting my one-of-a-kind 1918 Kissel Sedanlette with removeable wood top done. And it gave me an ugly case of carpel tunnel syndrome. There's no real way to mechanize this as it must be done completely with hand tools to get the right curves. It CAN be done, but takes time. See pictures. and the other 1918 Kissel discussion Forum. I hope I last long enough to get to that point where I worry about the curved glass pieces! Thanks, Ron Hausmann P.E. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old car fan Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 Ron you are my hero for saving the car's you do. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdarrunt Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 I certainly wouldn't spend big money on laminated glass when tempered glass, like modern cars have, is much stronger and safer. Regular glass is fit to a mold and once formed is then tempered. Much easier and lower cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 This coupe-roadster (I thought I would never put those two words together?) looks like another incredible car! Kissel did indeed make some of the most interesting cars of their eras. Oh, and if you are ever looking for someone to ride in one of those side seats on a Goldbug? I would volunteer, even for a ride at speed! Paige also had such a seat on their 6-66 Daytona Roadster! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 9 hours ago, mcdarrunt said: I certainly wouldn't spend big money on laminated glass when tempered glass, like modern cars have, is much stronger and safer. Regular glass is fit to a mold and once formed is then tempered. Much easier and lower cost. Actually, the company I found to fabricate the curved glass we need only does laminated safety and said if they could do tempered the tempered might actually cost more. Surprised me as well. If you know of a company that produces custom tempered curved glass please post contact info. We only found 2 companies, both architectural glass businesses, that would even quote on the glass we need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron hausmann Posted July 17, 2018 Author Share Posted July 17, 2018 All - Just returned from towing my trailer from Detroit to Montana and back to Detroit to pick up this car. 3,600 miles. Only saving grace was the 80 mph speed limit and trouble free weather. No load, trailer, nor car troubles. We had to disassemble the car from its truck chassis and re-mate it to its original Kissel Model 6-38 chassis which was turned into a farm wagon by the same person who did the truck conversion. Upon further inspection, i'm not going to restore this car. wToo much work for me. The wood hard top and body are to far gone for me to tackle, so I'm going to give wood for patterns to the owner of the only other remaining 1918 Kissel Coupe/Roadster. The engine is pristine - I am going to use it in my 1918 Kissel Sedanlette. Much of the trim, handles, windshield, latches, are excellent - I will use those on my 1918 or save . The chassis is nearly rust free and has all axles and brake fittings - I will keep these since they work on later model Kissels both Model 6-38 and early Model 6-45's. I actually need these axles on my unrestored Kissel Gold Bug. Here are pictures in Montana. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) Ron, It,s not like you to back away from a challenge! I can’t blame you, but I’m sure you could have pulled it off. As we say around our shop.......you can’t save them all. At least the parts will be used of other worthwhile projects. Keep posting photos please.......3600 Miles for parts........I have done the same thing......but I’m getting too old to do 1200 miles a day. ? Edited July 17, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Nice find, great photos of the car in Montana. They remind me of what was commonly found and restored back in the 1960's. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8E45E Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 On 5/20/2018 at 9:25 PM, Joe in Canada said: They would not licence it for the road up here without being safety glass. I don't see why not. In Alberta, vintage cars are grandfathered. If it didn't come from the factory with safety glass, or seat belts, et al., one is not required to retrofit them. I believe it is the same in Ontario. Regardless, I feel a lot safer riding in a Model T without any of these modern day safety features than I would on a motorcycle which offers NO protection of any kind. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Carl Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Safety glass is required here. Replacing the windshields in my '24 open Cadillac was quite time consuming. The closed '27 would be much easier. However, there is a decal on the windshield (basically a 1944 Idaho "license plate"), which I want to remain on the car. I have a plastic "shield" I can attach to the windshield with 5 suction cups. I think you can see it quite well in these two pictures if you click into high resolution. Broken glass is incredibly sharp. Actually used for some cutting purposes. You can not hone a blade as sharp. We have all had impacts (rock, bird), on our safety glass windshields which would have shattered the old plate glass. Ancient cars like this are death traps. We are lucky we are still allowed to drive them. There may come a time when AACA needs to help keep these old things from being permanently "drydocked". Please, anyone who reads this, if you are not yet a member of AACA : JOIN UP ! Thank you, - Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron hausmann Posted July 17, 2018 Author Share Posted July 17, 2018 19 hours ago, edinmass said: Ron, It,s not like you to back away from a challenge! I can’t blame you, but I’m sure you could have pulled it off. As we say around our shop.......you can’t save them all. At least the parts will be used of other worthwhile projects. Keep posting photos please.......3600 Miles for parts........I have done the same thing......but I’m getting too old to do 1200 miles a day. ? Ed - right now I need to finish my 1918 Kissel model 6-38 Sedanlette (only one of any year that survives), build a 1925 Kissel Model 6-55 panel delivery mail truck from all my spare parts, and restore my unrestored but complete Kissel model 6-45 Gold Bug Speedster. As it takes two years each, I'm a bit pressed for time! If I had another couple decades before my hands go, maybe I can tackle thus one. But grandchildren and wife will always take precedence! My grandsons will drive these some day! ron 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustDave Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 Hello ron, take some more time to think about,itt would look nice restored and setting beside the sedanette,you can give the pattern away later,just a thought, you know once there gone there gone forever, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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