Tax and your cars

[Terry Bond]

Not a conspiracy theory follower by any stretch of the imagination but I saw a recent article in our local newspaper stating the state is now beginning to look into taxation by-the-mile.  That's not a new concept but the idea is gaining some traction.   Problem as stated is well known.  More fuel efficient vehicles, more electric and hybrid vehicles, etc, have reduced the revenue states have derived from gas tax.  As an alternative, they are looking into ways to tax by mile-driven.  For newer cars, the technology to do that is already built into the vehicle - has been for years.  All that needs to happen is the states need to find a way to get the data (another potential money-maker for manufacturers).  These kinds of thoughts need to be closely monitored to ensure that our antique cars are considered.  If not, we could be inadvertently sucked up into some kind of crazy laws that impact the use of our vehicles.  No ideas yet how they intend to monitor or collect data but I'm sure that the twisted minds of the bean counters are fully engaged. 

Terry

[auburnseeker]

In NY state you have to get any car truck or motorized vehicle inspected annually.  With that they record the mileage and write it on the sticker.  With new cars tampering would be near impossible,  but with old car you easily fudge it,  or just unhook the cable and use a GPS for Speed. 

Be very careful with how much power or supervision/control  you let the govt have in your life.   Once surrendered it will be near impossible to get it back. 

[joe_padavano]

I'm all for taxation by the mile, and by the pound.  Users should pay based on use rate, not how much gas you use. A Tesla costs the state just as much per mile for road maintenance as does one of my Oldsmobiles, yet the Tesla owner is subsidized. Of course, this assumes the mileage-based tax REPLACES the gas tax and doesn't just augment it. 

 

I don't plan to hold my breath on that...

[Brass is Best]

The gas tax is a per mile tax. the more you use the more you pay. Tax electric cars by the mile and leave gasoline powered cars alone. However this is more about the ability to track everybody than roads. Be very careful who and what you vote for.

[joe_padavano]

7 minutes ago, Brass is Best said:

The gas tax is a per mile tax. the more you use the more you pay. Tax electric cars by the mile and leave gasoline powered cars alone. However this is more about the ability to track everybody than roads. Be very careful who and what you vote for.

 

You might want to loosen that tinfoil hat a little...

 

As for the gas tax being a per-mile tax, how do you figure that? A new 6,000 lb SUV causes more wear and tear to roadways than my 3,500 lb Olds, but gets better mileage.  I'm subsidizing that driver too. 

 

FYI, if you have a cell phone, you are already being tracked. 

[ply33]

3 minutes ago, joe_padavano said:

 

You might want to loosen that tinfoil hat a little...

 

As for the gas tax being a per-mile tax, how do you figure that? A new 6,000 lb SUV causes more wear and tear to roadways than my 3,500 lb Olds, but gets better mileage.  I'm subsidizing that driver too. 

 

FYI, if you have a cell phone, you are already being tracked. 

 

Yes. Damage to the roadway is dependent on vehicle weight and speed.

 

So my '33 Plymouth (2560 lbs traveling at 50 to 60 mph while getting about 15 mpg) is paying more per mile than my 2017 Prius (3375 lbs traveling 70+ mph while getting about 60 mpg).

 

Most cars in daily use are new enough to have ODB2 connectors on them. I'm not an expert on them, but isn't the total vehicle miles one of the values that can be read out of it? And many states already have an annual or biannual inspection of some sort. Seems like it would be easy to simply record the total vehicle mileage at each inspection.

 

Thinking about it, I'd be surprised if the vehicle's mileage isn't already being recorded on the forms being used for safety or smog checks. From the state's point of view the bad thing about this would be that the most straight forward way to implement a mileage based tax is that you'd get billed once per year. And that big tax bill would cause lots of political pain. IIRC the fellow that came up with payroll deductions for income tax later said it was a mistake because it made income tax less painful. In that regard, the current gas tax is less painful than a once a year mileage tax as you currently pay a few dollars per tank rather than a single check for hundreds or thousands of dollars once per year.

 

Regarding being tracked by your cell phone: It is designed in for the simple reason that your mobile provider needs to know what tower you are near to handle your calls.The mobile provider just needs to know which tower will provide the best reception for you phone and that is all the information they normally keep. If requested by law enforcement, etc., they can cross correlate the data between multiple towers that see your phone to get a better location. This is needed for enhanced 911 response, etc. but they don't normally do that. At least at present.

 

If your cellphone is a smart phone you are being tracked by more than just your mobile provider: Any apps from Google, Facebook, etc. are reporting your location to their respective companies. And they are probably doing it with a lot more precision than your mobile provider. Google, Facebook, et al, are using WiFi access points and in some case point of display Bluetooth beacons to location you within just a few feet. That way they can know how long you lingered in front of the the tool display versus the health food counter so they know that directing tool ads your way is a better way to your money than directing health product ads your way.

 

Boggles my mind that people are worried about the government tracking them: Near as I can tell outside of broad NSA sweeps for "national security" somebody still needs to get a judge to sign off on a warrant for government agencies to track you. While they have no problem with for profit businesses acquiring then selling far more information about them.

[SC38dls]

If you are worried about tracking or someone using that info you better not be using ANY social media!  Just think of facebooks recent problems or google or instrantgram or (fill in the media name) .....

 

 

[ply33]

Postscript to my previous reply: After making that post went and read some news. One article caught my eye and it is apparently running in a number of newspapers around the country today. Here is a version of it in a Houston paper: https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/article/A-surprise-data-driven-return-of-the-repo-man-12917400.php

 

Within that article, this paragraph jumped out at me:

The company's goal is to capture every plate in Ohio and use that information to reveal patterns. A plate shot outside an apartment at 5 a.m. tells you that's probably where the driver spends the night, no matter their listed home address. So when a repo order comes in for a car, the agent already knows where to look.

So you don't even need to have a cell phone to be tracked by private companies. Just a license plate. All, apparently legal for them to do. I worry a lot more about companies spying on me for profit than the government spying on me for no good reason.

[Xander Wildeisen]

Police, fire, ambulance, city buses, trash trucks, city services and other state/fed cars. What are they going to pay? I mean what are they going to make us pay for them?

 

[Brass is Best]

3 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

 

You might want to loosen that tinfoil hat a little...

 

As for the gas tax being a per-mile tax, how do you figure that? A new 6,000 lb SUV causes more wear and tear to roadways than my 3,500 lb Olds, but gets better mileage.  I'm subsidizing that driver too. 

 

FYI, if you have a cell phone, you are already being tracked. 

 

The SUV uses more gas and pays more gas tax. If you leave the cell phone at home you are not being tracked, unless there was another way...

[joe_padavano]

18 minutes ago, Brass is Best said:

 

The SUV uses more gas and pays more gas tax.

 

Have you checked the mileage of big SUVs these days?  Your assumption is incorrect.

[auburnseeker]

I think Brass is Best is referring to a real SUV not an overgrown hatchback they call an SUV today.  If it isn't as big or bigger than a 50's full size  sedan it isn't really a SUV.  It's a repackaged mid size sedan with a hatch. 

[ted sweet]

yes the big ones now get 17

[joe_padavano]

2 hours ago, auburnseeker said:

I think Brass is Best is referring to a real SUV not an overgrown hatchback they call an SUV today.  If it isn't as big or bigger than a 50's full size  sedan it isn't really a SUV.  It's a repackaged mid size sedan with a hatch. 

 

I'm talking about a Chevy Suburban with 5.3 and cylinder deactivation.  Again, have you actually checked the mileage of new ones? A friend of mine has one.  He gets high teens around town and mid-20s on the freeway. Is that a "real" enough SUV for you?

Edited May 19, 2018 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[Ronnie]

3 hours ago, Brass is Best said:

The SUV uses more gas and pays more gas tax. If you leave the cell phone at home you are not being tracked, unless there was another way...

 

OnStar is watching!  Better put a tin foil hat over that little stubby antenna too.  WAIT. Don't do that or you lose satellite radio and navigation. This tracking stuff is a no win situation.

[auburnseeker]

I do listen to my Xm via my Ancient Roadie 2.  No onstar on my stripped XL or an X as I call it 06 diesel superduty work truck with no frills. rubber floor matt, manual windows and tranny.  Heck it only has an AM FM radio.  

Listen to the news (all sides) you'll find out alot of those tinfoil ideas have come true,  just the major networks make it a blip as they wouldn't want to admit they were wrong or had an agenda.   Besides remember tinfoil actually did give you better reception back in the old days.  Not much but some and sometimes a little is all you need to get the clear story. 

Mid 20's ain't bad on the highway.  What were you towing when you got that mileage?  I can pull near 17 out of my Diesel and it's nothing built.  Near that even loaded to some degree. Depends are we on the highway in Northeaster PA or Kansas? 

Edited May 20, 2018 by auburnseeker (see edit history)

[Frank DuVal]

I'm with Joe, Joe is spending more in gas tax than the owners of new SUVs for the same miles driven, even though Joe' Oldsmobiles weigh less than the SUVs. Don't believe us? Read driving reviews of 64 to 74 Oldsmobiles and then read the reviews of 2010 and newer SUVs.

 

• fuel consumption and mileage: average estimated by a-c©: 23.9 l/100km / 11.8 mpg (imp.) / 9.8 mpg (U.S.) / 4.2 km/l, more data: 1964 Oldsmobile Super 88 Celebrity Sedan Hydra-Matic (aut. 3) Specifications Review

2010 Chevy Suburban  MPG: 15 city / 21 highway

 

 

[wayne sheldon]

Some of you people need to be a bit careful. Start thinking about some of this stuff and you may be branded a "crazy person". Like Me.

Califunny is constantly finding new ways to tax things. But they rarely ever remove an old tax just because they added a new one.

[joe_padavano]

4 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

. But they rarely ever remove an old tax just because they added a new one.

 

^^^^THIS is the problem, unfortunately. As I noted above, I'm all for a mileage and weight based tax that properly allocates costs to the vehicles that cause the wear and tear, but that only works if the current tax is removed.  Being a realist, I'm not holding my breath on that.

[60FlatTop]

22 hours ago, Terry Bond said:

More fuel efficient vehicles, more electric and hybrid vehicles, etc, have reduced the revenue states have derived from gas tax. 

 

So they finally figured that out. Pretty soon we won't have anything to make cynical jokes about. Well, at least they know how to tax sunshine in Arizona: https://thinkprogress.org/solar-companies-sue-over-new-rooftop-solar-tax-in-arizona-13a16311331d/

 

Conservation carries a heavy tole, or is it toll, to the existing tax basis.

 

More to come.

[emjay]

The gas road tax is perfect for fueled vehicles.  Electric vehicles can be done the same way.  A simple billable charge time whether at home or a public charging station.  Enter your account information and you'll get a bill at the end of the month.  They surely don't allow free charging at the public and semi-public chargers.  A very good correlation between the fuel/electricity one consumes and the road wear they cause.  And yes, road tax SHOULD go up over time.  It's the only one that should since it is a fixed rate based on a unit whereas all other taxes are based on value.

[Wheelmang]

Gas Tax, Fuel Tax, Toll roads and on and on. Just think how nice all of our roads would be if all that revenue was actually used for roads, bridges and highways.

[Matt Harwood]

Taxes are the cost of living in a civilized society where we can have a nice enough life to play with toy cars.

 

[joe_padavano]

1 hour ago, emjay said:

The gas road tax is perfect for fueled vehicles.  Electric vehicles can be done the same way.  A simple billable charge time whether at home or a public charging station.  Enter your account information and you'll get a bill at the end of the month.  They surely don't allow free charging at the public and semi-public chargers.  A very good correlation between the fuel/electricity one consumes and the road wear they cause.  And yes, road tax SHOULD go up over time.  It's the only one that should since it is a fixed rate based on a unit whereas all other taxes are based on value.

 

1) Yes those public chargers are free.  That's ANOTHER way that you are subsidizing those cars.

2) It the gas tax is "perfect", then I guess you are also fine with subsidizing all the SUV owners. Didn't we just have a discussion where Ford will only be making trucks and SUVs now?

3) How, exactly, to hybrids fit into your plan?

[emjay]

How does the gas tax subsidize SUVs?  There is a real good correlation between gas mileage and weight with weight being a major driver for rad abuse. 

 

Who's paying for the power at those public chargers?  Is it some government program to incentivize electrics?  Surely, that will come to an end sometime.  I'm suggesting a road usage tax to be applied to electricity destined to electric vehicles at a /kw rate as oppose to relying on mileage reporting.  The monitor will either be on the charger equipment or on the vehicle itself.  The technology to keep track of these kw is readily available.

 

Once that is in place it also takes care of hybrids.

 

The other problem with a mileage tax is different rates need to be establish for different vehicles and that can be politicized too easily.  A gas and electric road tax inherently taxes higher usage and higher potential to damage roads.

[avgwarhawk]

Maryland charges more for registration for larger vehicles when registration is due every two years. This accounts for more road wear for said vehicles.  Losing money from gas revenues as a result of more efficient cars is not my problem. Tighten the belt like everyone else.  Typical government. Instead of taking the time to resolve issue they simply throw money at it as the answer. 

[charlier]

45 minutes ago, emjay said:

I'm suggesting a road usage tax to be applied to electricity destined to electric vehicles at a /kw rate as oppose to relying on mileage reporting.  The monitor will either be on the charger equipment or on the vehicle itself.  The technology to keep track of these kw is readily available.

 

How would this work for electric vehicles charged at home? What about home charging done with a regular 120 volt plug and no charger equipment?

If these issues can be taken care of then it might work.

 

Vehicles with OBD2 connections can easily have their mileage accounted for. In states where there is an annual safety/emissions inspection this would be a snap.

Older vehicles without OBD2 connections would be more of a challenge mainly in states without annual inspections. Vehicles without an odometer or working odometer would be an real challenge. In some states Antique Vehicles are exempt form safety & emissions inspections. Given the very low mileage many of these vehicles drive maybe they could be exempt or just pay a VERY LOW, flat rate yearly tax fee? No simple answer for these vehicles.

 

BTW, I see lots of talk about the weight of vehicles in this thread. Personally, I could care less about SUVs when it comes to weight.

The real issue in my mind would be 70,000 pound plus electric tractor trailers and HEAVY electric UPS and FedEx box trucks.

Those beat up roads a lot more than SUVs.  Maybe these vehicles need to be tax based on mileage and weight. Sadly that will never come to pass as long as corporate America can fill the pockets of politicians with $$$$ at the state and federal levels.

 

 

[joe_padavano]

4 hours ago, emjay said:

How does the gas tax subsidize SUVs?  There is a real good correlation between gas mileage and weight with weight being a major driver for rad abuse.

 

You've apparently not read the earlier posts in this thread. A new 6000lb Suburban gets substantially better mileage than an older 3500 lb car with a carb. That SUV driver pays less per mile while causing more wear and tear.

[John_S_in_Penna]

Why does everyone focus on SUV's when reporting

on lower-gas-mileage vehicles?  Most of those

high-priced European exotics get low gas mileage,

and they carry only 2 people, not 6 or 9!

[Matt Harwood]

6 minutes ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

Why does everyone focus on SUV's when reporting

on lower-gas-mileage vehicles?  Most of those

high-priced European exotics get low gas mileage,

and they carry only 2 people, not 6 or 9!

 

How many Lamborghinis do you see on your way to work each morning?

 

How many SUVs? And how many of those SUVs have 6 or 9 people in them?

That's why.

[auburnseeker]

I believe he was referring to luxury touring cars and not super cars.  Lots of higher end Benzes and such on the roads.   I'm sure they are not being stuffed with 6 guys commuting in from the country club to the city every day. 

Never ask for a tax as it's the one thing the Govt is very willing to inact and rarely remove.  Look at the internet sales tax if you want an example.  They are chomping at the bit to enact the most complicated almost impossible to administer tax ever.  If you are an internet merchant you understand how messed up this tax is.  

[emjay]

Comparing old and new cars is like apples and oranges.  Along with the exotics you are talking about the exceptions rather than the norm, but it comes down to choice.  It's a natural incentive to move towards a newer vehicle rather than a forced one.  Yes, I know what forum this is, but again we are not the mainstream traffic on the road and we choose to drive an older car, so some trade offs should be expected.

 

Electric vehicles are charged with a very specialized uniform connector, which is on every single charging station.  Entering some kind of identification code is all that is needed to keep track of the kw transferred.  Sure one could jump into the system like people can jump their power meter, but the vehicle computer could easily block those attempts.

 

I just see the analogy of a kw road tax to a fuel road tax.  It's a pay as you go system.  To me that's better than creating a new system to submit a mileage record on a monthly or annual basis. 

[Restorer32]

We are in Amish country. You would be surprised how much damage their steel wheeled farm implements do to roads and they pay no gas taxes. no registration fees and no inspection fees.

[Restorer32]

Someone do the math. I'd bet that a thin tired bicycle puts more weight on the road on a square inch basis than an 18 wheeler.

[emjay]

That math is quite simple.  The force per square inch is virtually the same as the tire pressure.  Whether you want to multiply by the number of wheels is open to debate.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

13 hours ago, charlier said:

 

How would this work for electric vehicles charged at home? What about home charging done with a regular 120 volt plug and no charger equipment?

If these issues can be taken care of then it might work.

 

Vehicles with OBD2 connections can easily have their mileage accounted for. In states where there is an annual safety/emissions inspection this would be a snap.

Older vehicles without OBD2 connections would be more of a challenge mainly in states without annual inspections. Vehicles without an odometer or working odometer would be an real challenge. In some states Antique Vehicles are exempt form safety & emissions inspections. Given the very low mileage many of these vehicles drive maybe they could be exempt or just pay a VERY LOW, flat rate yearly tax fee? No simple answer for these vehicles.

 

BTW, I see lots of talk about the weight of vehicles in this thread. Personally, I could care less about SUVs when it comes to weight.

The real issue in my mind would be 70,000 pound plus electric tractor trailers and HEAVY electric UPS and FedEx box trucks.

Those beat up roads a lot more than SUVs.  Maybe these vehicles need to be tax based on mileage and weight. Sadly that will never come to pass as long as corporate America can fill the pockets of politicians with $$$$ at the state and federal levels.

 

 

 

 Charlier, Charlier!

  They already are taxed at weight and mileage.  

 

  Ben

[R W Burgess]

14 hours ago, charlier said:

 

BTW, I see lots of talk about the weight of vehicles in this thread. Personally, I could care less about SUVs when it comes to weight.

The real issue in my mind would be 70,000 pound plus electric tractor trailers and HEAVY electric UPS and FedEx box trucks.

Those beat up roads a lot more than SUVs.  Maybe these vehicles need to be tax based on mileage and weight. Sadly that will never come to pass as long as corporate America can fill the pockets of politicians with $$$$ at the state and federal levels.

 

 

*

*

As Ben said, we truckers pay a "Heavy Use Tax" each year. Some Big Box Carriers have signs on their back doors telling you this.

[39BuickEight]

A local quarry is 99% responsible for destroying a local highway where I live.  It is patched and/or paved every other year due to the wear they put on it.  I sure hope they pay for 99% of that cost.  I bet they don't.  The police don't even enforce the local laws regarding their use.

 

A truck carrying 18 tons of gravel passing by all at once is not the same as 18 tons of vehicles driving the road individually.  It's not even close.

 

I know bigger trucks pay more tax, but I bet it's not at 99% more than passenger vehicles pay.  Increasing taxes is not the issue though, as mentioned, it is actually using the existing tax dollars responsibly.  There is always more tax money coming in as the tax base is always increasing.

[joe_padavano]

11 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

Why does everyone focus on SUV's when reporting

on lower-gas-mileage vehicles?  Most of those

high-priced European exotics get low gas mileage,

and they carry only 2 people, not 6 or 9!

 

Because the issue is how much wear and tear the vehicle puts on the road surface, which is a function of weight, not MPG.  The MPG factors into this only to the extent that one pays road tax based on fuel used, which is a function of MPG.  A heavy vehicle that gets good gas mileage does more road damage than the owner pays for in fuel tax.  A lightweight exotic pays far more than the fair share given how little the vehicle weighs. Personally I don't care if an exotic car owner wants to subsidize my use of the roads. I absolutely DO care if I have to subsidize the roads so my neighbor can drive his 6000 lb SUV and not pay his fair share of maintenance. Again, this is why a tax based on vehicle weight and miles driven by that vehicle is more fair than a per-gallon gas tax.

 

I'm not sure how to state it any more clearly than that.

 

As for the tinfoil hat crowd worried about being tracked, how, exactly, does telling the gov't that vehicle X travelled 13,408 miles last year equate to "tracking"?

[charlier]

2 minutes ago, R W Burgess said:

*

*

As Ben said, we truckers pay a "Heavy Use Tax" each year. Some Big Box Carriers have signs on their back doors telling you this.

 

Thanks to you and Ben for enlightening me on this as I was not aware of these taxes on trucking companies.

I cannot remember the last time I saw signs on the back doors of trailers regarding Heavy Use Taxes. 

 

Here in Pennsylvania they do tax over-the-road Diesel which I believe trucking companies still pay for, right?

If so, then I suppose electric tractor trailers would have to pay some equivalent tax/fee to make up for this lost revenue.

Given fuel taxes here in PA are the highest in the USA (something like 74 cents/gallon just for the state tax on diesel) this has to be a lot of money that would be lost over time unless it is replaced somehow.

 

No easy solution but something will have to be done moving forward as fuel tax revenue continues to drop due to the increasing number of electric vehicles and better fuel economy of gas powered vehicles. We can only hope that politicians will do the right thing that benefits everyone and not just their own interests or wallets.