1931 Buick 8-66S door adjustments- please help if you can

[Str8-8-Dave]

I'm working on the doors on my 1931 Buick model 8-66S and have encountered a couple of problems with door alignment and gaps particularly at the lower rear edges.  When viewed from the rear the bottom rear edges of the door skins stick out from the B-pillar sheet metal about 3/8" and with all hinges and pins in place and hinge attaching screws tight the belt molding feature lines don't line up at the rear of the door indicating some sag.  On a modern car this would be corrected via hinge and striker adjustments and maybe shims.  As far as I can tell there are no adjustments to the hinges.  The doors have new upper and lower B-pillar door bumpers from Bob's.  There are no Dovetail door bumpers installed yet as the pockets, covers and rubber inserts were MIA when I got the car.  I bought pocket castings that are actually for Cadillac from Classic Exotic Car Service in Troy, MI and have Steele bumper inserts.  The castings are longer than Buick used but can easily be modified to fit original recesses in B-pillar wood so that is what I plan to do.  I will fab covers in brass and send out for chrome.  so here are my questions:

 

Will the dovetail bumpers help with closed door sag?

What options do I have to tune up the gaps and get the door beltlines to line up?

 

Thanks in advance for any advice...

 

Dave Krugler

BCA #20435

Port Huron, MI 

[Dave39MD]

Dave, I have not found it yet for the Buick but there is a lot of info on adjusting the door gap on Chevrolets of the period by using shims under the body bolts. I would check to be sure all body bolts are there and tight to start with. I will look to see it I can find the info this morning.

Dave

[Spinneyhill]

My guess is that to raise the front door, you need to shim under the body below the hinges. If the wood sill and framing is not good, it needs fixing first.

 

Here is an old topic about it.

Here is another web site. It is a ford pickup but similar ideas apply.

http://www.antiquecar.com/bodyshop/bodyshop_door_buildup.php

 

There is probably something here for you too.

http://westmich.buickclub.org/list.htm

 

There is plenty of information on the www about aligning Model A doors. The ideas will be the same.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Str8-8-Dave]

Wow- thanks a ton to everyone who saw and answered this post.  I had never thought of shims at the body mounting points that makes perfect sense.  For sure that would correct the sag and if the rear of the door is raised it will alter where the door meets the B-pillar bumpers and the allow the contour of the rear door to agree with the contour of the B-pillar.  At that point at worst there would be an adjustment at the striker or latch to close the door completely and at best the doors would just close evenly top to bottom.    Thanks again to all who contributed. 

 

Dave 

[Dave39MD]

Bob's has the 1931 Buick Fisher Body book and it does detail door adjustment using shims. For a door low at the lock plate you place shims 1/8 to 1/4 thick between the body and the frame at bolt number 2. Number two is the one under or near the hinge post as Spinneyhill mentioned.

[Str8-8-Dave]

I may have that same book coming from Buick Heritage Alliance.  I haven't seen it yet so that's good to know. 

 

Thanks to your pictures I now have my shifter and hand brake issues almost completely solved.  I bought that trans in PA on E-Bay and wife and I went to fetch it.  It had correct shifter, shifter cover with bell cover at the bottom and the dust seals still intact, missing bell housing cover, correct rack gear, the hand brake pivot pin, a really nice clutch arm canvas dust shield and the inverted flare fittings for the throw out bearing lube line.  I found the original hand brake lever from this car in a box.  The main lever itself was useable,  everything else was junk.  I bought a 50 series complete hand brake assy. from Mark Shaw (which also is not same as 60 series and won't work) and cannibalized all the release lever parts and hardware from it.  I hand-formed a release rod from my boxes of junk and got it all installed and it works nicely but the servo rod that connects it to the cross-frame brake shaft to actuate the brakes was too short, missed reaching my newly assembled hand brake by an inch with clevis adjusted out as far as I dared.  After scratching my head a bit I noticed first that the clevis and rod threads had been re-threaded to 5/16-18  coarse thread from 5/16-24 fine thread that Buick put on the parts which was dangerous because the threads are weak.  Finally the light went on, whoever substituted the incorrect shifter and hand brake found the connecting link to the brake servo shaft too long so they cut it off and rethreaded it with the wrong threads probably because they didn't have the fine thread die.  Back to the junk box I took the 50 series connecting link and original clevis from Mark's hand brake and my modified link and cut the  two rods to the combined length that will now correctly hook up to the original hand brake and restore the threaded end to 5/16-24.  The rod is at the welding shop now and i should have it back later today so I can tie a ribbon around that mess.  Both shifter and hand brake parts will all eventually go to Graves Plating in GA for CHROME plating, not nickel as both you and someone else pointed out that's what they were originally.

 

Also after several tries to buy a correct tail light and bracket assembly I scored a really nice one on E-Bay today.  It's the first one that I've found since I bought the car that wasn't bent and drilled or rusted beyond recognition.  This one is straight, the paint is shiny and even has a pretty nice lamp assembly.  I have 3 lamps now so I will pick the best one and sell off the rest.

 

As always- thanks a ton for your help.  having an original car and an owner willing to share pictures...

 

PRICELESS!

 

Dave 

[Dave39MD]

You have it going in the right direction. I am not sure on the hand brake and shift lever, maybe some of the Buick experts will add their input. Mine do look like chrome but the rest of the interior plated metal looks like nickel.

 

Dave

[Restorer32]

A screen door turnbuckle installed under the door upholstery panel will pull the bottom corner in nicely and raise the door a bit. You want to mount one end of the turnbuckle high on the hinge side of the door and the other low on the rear of the door wood. Many cars came from the factory with either an adjustable "turnbuckle" or a solidly mounted brace. We rewood cars as part of our business and on every car we do we install turnbuckles in the doors, set into the wood so they don't interfere with the upholstery. You will be surprised how well a few turns on the turnbuckle works.

[Str8-8-Dave]

Thanks for this tip.   I have seen this in at least one previous car I have owned without knowing the purpose.  I'm thinking the beltline alignment should be addressed first, then a tension rod installed to correct lower door alignment last.   Thanks.   Dave 

[Str8-8-Dave]

Ok guys- the moment of truth is approaching for placement of an additional 1/8" or 1/4" shim under the hinge post sill at body bolt #2.  I have the #2 bolts removed on both sides and my approach will be to insert the shim and use the body bolt to line up the new shim's bolt hole before lowering the body back down.  All other body bolts are loose with at least 1/2" clearance to the mounting brackets.  It appears the previous owner/restorer placed 1/4" body mount pads at all bolt hole locations, over tightened #'s 1 and 2 body bolt, omitted #3, installed #4, omitted #5.  The challenge now is lifting the body without doing harm.

 

What is the easiest method that is safe to lift the body just enough to get either 1/8-1/4" shims in place?  I looked at using a nail remover pry bar near the #2 bolt location but the sheet metal running board aprons are in place and they are sandwiched in the stack with the shims at the body bolt  locations.  I don't want to remove them if I can help it.  Do I have to built a lift rig to install across the body at the hinge post toe floor kick-up brackets at the arrows shown on the attached picture?  I can do that but it will be a job...

 

Thanks in advance...

Dave

[Guest]

There is good information in the Fisher Body manual on how to do this.  I think it would be easier to put a shim between the sill and the frame.  Loosen the body bolts on that side and force a wedge in to lift the body slightly and insert your shim. I think you will find if you undo all the screws on the triangular brace and put your shim under the "A" pillar you will never be able to keep the screws tight when you replace them.  There is a lot of pressure on that joint just driving down the street.

[Str8-8-Dave]

You are probably right about disturbing those bracket screws.  You can't just drive a wedge in over the beautifully painted frame because you will wreck the paint on it and if you hit the edge of the running board apron sheet metal which extends over the body mount bolt holes because the body bolts also attach the aprons you will destroy them too.  I have both the 1931 Buick Fisher Body manual and  the 1926-31  Fisher Body service manual for closed cars.  They both say adding a shim to the #2 bolt location is what you need to do to correct door sag at the lock end (rear) but neither have any info on how to lift the body.  The 26-31 book even tells all the stuff you need to take off or disconnect to remove the body but no advice on where or how to lift the body. 

[Spinneyhill]

Use a hard-wood wedge? Or a rubber door stop with a spot of water to lubricate it? Or a bar across inside and lift from above with a hoist?

Edited June 24, 2018 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Str8-8-Dave]

I finally spotted a space next to the outer frame rail where the wood sill is exposed.  I just placed a 1/8" hard rubber shim under bolt location #2 with excellent results.  The driver door, which had to be slammed shut to engage the second latch now closes easily and the strip line lines up almost perfectly.  I'm an old out of shape geezer so I will rest a bit before doing the passenger side.  One thing both of my body manuals agree on is these body bolts should be tightened just enough to crush the lock washer.  Some of the bolts I loosened were clearly too tight.  That coupled with the fact there was no bolt in location #3 which is under the latch pillar suggests to me that when I'm done and have all the bolts in place I should be in good shape.  Pictures later...

 

Dave

[Spinneyhill]

10 minutes ago, Str8-8-Dave said:

I should be in good shape.

or at least more flexible, wiggling and twisting into odd shaped spaces!

[Dave39MD]

I may have misunderstood but I would not do any adjusting until all bolts are in place and snug since adding the bolt may change things. On my 31 Chevrolet I was able to loosen the bolt and use a large pry bar to get just enough clearance for the shim. Might be to crude for a Buick!

 

Dave

[Str8-8-Dave]

The 1/8" additional shims are in place at the number 2 bolt location which is the door hinge location and the door alignment is way better than it was.  There were no bolts in the #3 location which is the lock pillar location.  The Fisher Body manuals both say for coupes the 2 key locations to work for door alignment are #2 where you can raise the front of the door slightly which results in a significant change on the lock side and the number 3 location where a thinner shim results in dropping the lock pillar in relation to the rear of the door.  I'm with you that the final result requires all bolts in place tightened just enough to collapse the lock washer.  I will be installing the missing bolts at the number 3 location and I bet when those are tightened the lock pillar will drop slightly which would make door alignment at the beltline feature on the body perfect.  Both doors work much better and neither drag as it is now with none of the bolts tightened.  We are headed off on vacation Thursday so I may or may not finish up before I go.

 

Best...

 

Dave 

[Str8-8-Dave]

So after a couple of days work I finally got enough body mount shims installed under body bolt location #2, the door hinge location.  Unlike what I hoped for in my previous post, after installing 1/8" shims at #2 on both side of the car I reinstalled the remaining bolts including adding missing bolts at the #3 lock pillar location and to my horror the doors that lined up and closed so nicely before tightening the bolts were as bad as before!  RATS!  After the pity party was over I took all the bolts out again and added a 1/4" shim on the driver's side which sagged the most after tightening the bolts and I replaced the 1/8" shim on the passenger side with a 1/4" shim.  Being skeptical that I might have to add even more shims I started by just tightening #2 on both sides.  The doors remained lined up nice and closed nicely.   Next I tightened #1 and #3, checked the doors and both were ok.  I finally finished off the last of the bolts and happily I think the door alignment is now acceptable.  This also seems to have cured the misalignment of the lower trailing edges of the door skins which eliminated the need to add tension rods inside the doors. 

 

I posted before pictures in my opening post and due to file size I won't re-post here. A picture of the shims I used and the after pictures of the drivers door are below.  I found the shims from a guy named Norm Smith from Saskatchewan Canada while looking on E-bay one night.  Norm was selling these for early Chevrolet on E-Bay and I contacted him to inquire what thickness shims he could produce and whether or not the rubber was reinforced which it is.  Norm produces these in 1/8" and 1/4" thicknesses. 

 

Thanks for all the help and advice from those who responded to this post...

 

Dave

[Spinneyhill]

Xclnt!

 

What are we doing next?

[Str8-8-Dave]

Next is to straighten out the steering wheel controls, light switch and warmup throttle.  The previous custodians were trying to make the car very pretty, they painted the steering column tube, steering gear and the ignition switch a dazzling gloss black.  Unfortunately for me, because I'm interested in something that is correct and works like original, I'm suspicious these guys took the column tube off the steering gear.  There are at least 3 diecast  parts in the steering wheel, the throttle lever ring, the horn button and light switch and beneath both of those is a diecast part that clamps and is indexed to the inner sector tube that has a cam screwed to it that limits the headlight switch movement.  The headlight switch is supposed to travel from the park light position at about 7 o-clock, to the off position at 6 o-clock to the low beam headlight position at 5 o-clock to the high beam headlight position at about 4 o-clock.  My headlight switch travels from about 6 o-clock to 9 o-clock so that cam is out of position.  I have to figure out how to rotate the inner sector tube and hence that cam counter clockwise about 80-90 degrees to fix it.    After that I still have dovetail door bumper assemblies to install, cover plates to make for those and I want to work on door windows to get them to work accurately and reliably before any interior trim gets installed.  Later I will swap out all the pedals in the car for original correct part numbered pedals, install the cowl vent door seals and the over center springs I finally acquired then start working on the heat control and heat riser linkage which I have now acquired all the missing parts for except the link rod that connects the dash control to the heat riser linkage. 

 

But wait- there's more lol, radiator front shutters need to come out for correct black paint, I need to fabricate a steel lower radiator hose section with a drain cock in it, build hinges for the golf door, build a new wood frame for the golf door, build a windshield frame and glaze it and install it and the windshield regulator, wire the car, finish restoring the headlamps, install all the lighting, remove the instrument panel to paint it and stripe it, fix the exhaust header pipe so it misses the suspension components, investigate the thus far unopened rumble lid and many other items I probably don't even know of yet.  Alas- this is the stuff of amateur car restoration.   It gives an old retired geezer something to do...

 

Dave

[Spinneyhill]

OK, that is this weekend mapped out....

[chistech]

Sorry I’m late to this thread but here’s what I know from installing quite a few GM bodies back on their frames and aligning the doors. #1 should basically only have a thin sheet of rubber between the sill and frame on both sides or thin webbing material but no shims. #1 bolts should be very tight. (Shimming #1 will cause alignment issues with the vertical edges of the hood and in most cases, something else is off if you have to shim #1 to get the hood edges right) #2 should have one canvas reinforced, very hard pad (not the lousy rubber shims they’re selling, more like a piece of tire sidewall) All shims required to align doors should be metal and not rubber. Rubber will allow the door to sag eventually again.#3 is the same as #2 and so is #4. #5 (rear corner metal sill bracket)has no shims at all and should be a metal to metal, solid mount. Bolts on #5, again, very tight. Basically the front and back of the body is mounted solid to the chassis and the center is moved up or down to align the doors. Occasionally this rule is broken with four door cars to get the rear door right and the #5 might have to be shimmed some but only with heavy canvas reinforced rubber.  Doing this can cause problem though with rear fender bolt up and the look of the rear corner over the tank apron.

      What I have noticed is as the marque went up in value, the quality/thickness of shim material did also. A 31 chevy for example had a small square pad of 3/16 canvas reinforced rubber and in some cases, many small, thin “U” shaped metal shims. My 32’ Olds had 3/8” thick,4” diameter circles of heavy reinforced rubber with 1/8-3/16 thick metal U shims and they are twice the width/length of the Chevy ones. The Buick mounts I’ve seen are pretty much like the Olds rather than the Chevy. All the sills originally had a 1/4” pad of ash tacked to the sill bottoms at each mount except #5. Often these thin pads would split and deteriorate causing alignment issues and many more shims to be added than originally needed. My rewooded Olds roadster has almost perfect door alignment with not a single shim in place but my body is only sitting on the frame, not bolted down tight. I’m sure once #1 and #5 are socked up, I’ll have some shimming to do on the rest.