1903 Columbus electric car. Battery help?

[mike6024]

[mike6024]

https://books.google.com/books?id=cS5LAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA144&lpg=PA144&dq=Electric+Vehicle+Company+exide+battery+columbia#v=onepage&q=Electric Vehicle Company exide battery columbia&f=false

 

Does this link work? If so you can zoom in.

 

This vehicle’s total weight is 1,200 pounds. Its wheelbase is 64 inches; its tread is 48 inches; and its artillery-type wheels are 24 inches in diameter. The vehicle was designed to have as little deadweight as possible, to allow for a larger battery and a heavier motor. Two box-like compartments in the body held the battery equipment. The batteries, 20 two-volt cells, had a capacity of 120 ampere hours at a 30-ampere discharge rate. There are no batteries in the car now. The motor is believed to have been made by General Electric Co. and is of 6-pole construction, completely enclosed, and rated at 30 amperes at 40 volts. The motor is beneath the seat. Apparently, the car’s maximum speed was 15 miles per hour, and it could go about 40 miles on a single charge.

Edited May 7, 2018 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[TerryB]

Much better, thank you Mike!   The 200% overload rating is interesting, that would allow for more battery power to be applied to the motor to boost its performance.

Terry

[mike6024]

http://www.kcstudio.com/colindex.html

 

http://www.kcstudio.com/colcharging.html

 

More interesting stuff, but a lot to wade through. Not all on the Runabout, but also other models, and manufacturing, etc.

 

[TerryB]

Sure is great reading.  A far cry from today’s EV offering.

[TerryB]

As a former Motorcycle owner and racer, I would recommend inspecting the chain drive for proper adjustments and lube.  A poorly adjusted / lubed chain can rob power.  When you don’t have a lot of power to spare every little adjustment helps!

[mike6024]

 

http://www.kcstudio.com/coleb.html       How to charge your batteries.

 

 

[CatBird]

WOW! You guys are very helpful! This is probably the same car as a Columbia, but ours is a Columbus. I had originally thought it was a Columbia. 

But, notice the Volt-Ampere meter shows (picture). I suppose this is the range?? I enlarged the Patent dates seem from '88 to '01. 

 

I also have information that the car was rewired in 2011. Motor, chain drives, cleaned and lubricated. By Art Lively in Chattanooga. I have contact info and am reaching out. In the documentation by Art, he felt it could have 6 12v batteries. I dunno. 

Edited May 8, 2018 by CatBird
addition (see edit history)

[TerryB]

That’s great information, I never heard of Columbus electric cars!  

[Rusty_OToole]

If that is the volt meter off your car it shows 86 volts for a fully charged battery F and 54 volts empty E. This seems high for such an early electric when other sources seem to indicate a voltage of 36 to 60.

 

However if 86 is correct that would mean 7 12 volt batteries or 14 6 volt. Do you have room for that many batteries?

 

Can you contact Mr Liveley and get the lowdown?

Edited May 9, 2018 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[mike6024]

Yes I would contact Mr Art Lively to see if he removed the motor, inspected the brushes, and ask whether the motor was labeled with a voltage and current rating and maybe torque. I think motors would be labeled with a voltage and torque. It would most likely be a General Electric motor as that seemed to be specified for the Columbia (though you have Columbus, I realize) and for the "Electric Vehicle Company" which seems to me the parent of the others.

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=cS5LAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA144&lpg=PA144&dq=Electric+Vehicle+Company+exide+battery+columbia#v=onepage&q=Electric Vehicle Company exide battery columbia&f=false
 

Some of the other models listed in this link, like the Columbia Opera Bus show a WestingHouse motor with rating of 80 Volts and 50 Amps. So there were other possibilities for the motor.

 

As Rusty said earlier, the danger of too much voltage and current is overheating, which could cause internal damage in the form of melting insulation of the magnetic coil windings.

 

Your worst danger of overheating would be going up hill, not a short hill, but extended uphill climb. It would also be what would drain the battery the fastest. At lower RPM a DC motor actually draws more current and puts out more torque. This is counter intuitive, probably. But traveling at higher RPM on flat level ground draws less current.

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2018 by mike6024
typo (see edit history)

[CatBird]

Mike6024. Your link with pictures describes a 1903 Columbia that says it can have an "overload of 300%" and "24 cells". I would guess this is 24, 2volt cells = 48v, but if "300%" it could handle 144volts????. This car seems identical to ours. I have room for 8 12v deep cycle batteries. I have six in there right now and are not planning for any more!

Yes, it is the only 1903 Columbus I can find and it is in original condition, down to the paint and leather fenders. I am overjoyed to have acquired it! Hope you all enjoy the fun of this fine old car!

Looking over documentation, in the rewiring, they are recommending not over 72v total. Apparently, we have a 1 1/2hp motor. Higher voltages were used in later, larger cars that had 4 to 5 hp motors.

 

BTW the brakes work very well. It only has them on the back wheels. There is no sound except the tires on pavement.  

 

 

Edited May 9, 2018 by CatBird (see edit history)

[TerryB]

On 5/9/2018 at 1:47 PM, CatBird said:

Yes, it is the only 1903 Columbus I can find and it is in original condition, down to the paint and leather fenders. I am overjoyed to have acquired it! Hope you all enjoy the fun of this fine old car!

 

 

Absolutely a wonderful acquisition! I am delighted to see it and hear about its existence. With more attention being given to EV development it’s great to see what the early auto pioneers did to make their mark on the auto industry.

[maok]

If you want to educate yourself on how EV's function, sign up to this forum - DIY EVs

[Roger Frazee]

Catbird, check your private messages on this forum.

[Frank DuVal]

Cadillac Carl, I will try:

""A fully charged 12 V battery is actually around 13 V , right ? So then if the design actually called for 40 V , do you want to run 39 V or 52 V ? ""

On 5/5/2018 at 11:30 PM, C Carl said:

Given : a somewhat lowly charged battery is still capable of enormous amperage , though the voltage will be down somewhat. Right ? If you question this , put your smart charger on a rather low battery. Read the voltage on the proper function. 11.4 ? 11.something ? See what happens when you momentarily short that low boy. From the spark and snap (!) you will see plenty of amps , (current , flow). Just not at the voltage , (head pressure) , that it/the system , is designed to give/operate at. Just think of a water flow analogy and that will make things clearer. Now that motor. It wants to deliver power. If not quite enough voltage is available , it will try to make up for it in amperage draw , which the lower voltage battery system tries to deliver. This can lead to reduced component life. Well now , this is what I believe. I could be wrong.

Let's just agree that a 12 volt battery is actually 12.6 volts, 2.1 volts per cell for the lead-acid technology.

So, to charge a battery you must reverse the direction of current flow and get the ions moving inside the electrolyte, this means maybe 13.5 to 14 volts for a 12 volt system, and 7 to 7.5 volts for a 6 volt system. Still sounds like round off error more than a design change, but then look at a 24 volt system (military vehicles, etc.) . That is actually a battery of 12 cells , 12 x 2.1 = 25.3 volts. Charging is typically 27 to 28 volts, so radio equipment designed for military is spec'ed at 28 volts. Now we have a "4" volt difference in terminology for the same system.

 

Now, car manufacturers have been playing with more volts in R & D for electric compressors and other electric items that take more power than we have now in our 12 volt systems. They could go with "24" but jumped up to 42 volt systems several years ago (10/15?). That meant an actual "36" volt battery bank and a 42 volt charging system. Now I see some are promoting 48 volt systems. I can only assume that means a 48 volt battery and a  55 or so volt charging system. Confused more???

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/08/business/electric-cars-48-volts.html

 

Quote

On 5/5/2018 at 11:30 PM, C Carl said:

Given : a somewhat lowly charged battery is still capable of enormous amperage , though the voltage will be down somewhat. Right ? If you question this , put your smart charger on a rather low battery. Read the voltage on the proper function. 11.4 ? 11.something ? See what happens when you momentarily short that low boy. From the spark and snap (!) you will see plenty of amps , (current , flow). Just not at the voltage , (head pressure) , that it/the system , is designed to give/operate at. Just think of a water flow analogy and that will make things clearer. Now that motor. It wants to deliver power. If not quite enough voltage is available , it will try to make up for it in amperage draw , which the lower voltage battery system tries to deliver. This can lead to reduced component life. Well now , this is what I believe. I could be wrong.

 

 

Well, this may take an EE 401 course to fully explain. As the motor speeds up, it acts as a generator and produces "back-EMF" which makes the motor copper wire coils look less like a short, so current is reduced. If you think of a typical AC motor, it pulls high current when starting (let's not even address the capacitor starts with the centrifugal switch and a separate start winding, think split phase or three phase motor for this discussion), then the current drops when it reaches speed. What happens when the voltage is low and the load is still high, the motor can not get up to speed, so the back emf is low, and the current can stay higher than it should, causing overheating. With vehicles, the starter motor is a series wound DC motor for starting the engine. These are designed for very high current for short periods of time, or they will overheat. Boss Kettering designed them this way, since he knew the engine should start and then the motor would no longer need to run, giving time to cool off. If he put in a motor capable of turning a vehicle engine over without being overloaded, the electric motor would be as large as the vehicle engine!  Where was I? Yes, this can lead to weird vehicle problems, as the battery is weak, but still capable of lotsa amps, so the starter tries to turn the engine, pulls lotsa amps, but the engine strains to turn and you keep the starter engaged, long past the 30 second maximum crank time (see shop manual, it is usually quoted as 30 seconds), connections and wires heat up, windings in the starter heat up, problems can happen. So I guess you are right for these conditions.

 

Now if it is a parallel wound DC motor (blower motor), the field is voltage dependent, so lower voltage will lessen the magnetic field strength, and current can be less with lower voltage, but back-emf is still there in the equation. Series wound fields (starters) develop more magnetic strength as current goes up, even if the voltage is less. Inductive circuits here, as E=IR, a purely resistive load will always draw less current with less voltage applied. In inductive loads, R varies, like with back-emf effects in the case of motors.

 

Did this help at all?

 

 

 

Edited May 11, 2018 by Frank DuVal
Spelling (see edit history)

[C Carl]

Yes, thank you, Frank. Right now I am beat tired and will read this several times tomorrow. The first time I heard of back EMF was in reference to diesel electric locomotives versus steam. That's the  reason steam at the conversion period was significantly faster (though less efficient) than the D.E.s. I am old enough to have clear memories of a ride in an open baggage car behind a scheduled high speed Illinois Central steam locomotive..Not as many liability issues back then. Also got to see the last stand of commercial steam in the U.S.A. Articulateds pulling long freight over the Contental Divide. Not to mention seeing Joe the lamp lighter doing his thing with the last "old growth" stand of virgin Gaslight in the U.S.A. Any of you old Chicagoans remember him ?  West of and near Milwaukee Ave ? It is fun growing old !   -  CC

[Rusty_OToole]

Any lead acid wet cell will make 2.2 volts. This goes for any wet cell, made today or in 1895, whether it is the size of a Tic Tac box or the size of a bathtub.

 

6 cells make a so called  12 volt battery which is 13.2 volts when fully charged. Like wise a 3 cell battery called 6 volt, will make 6.6 fully charged.

 

The generator or charger for a 12 volt battery puts out 14.5 volts, that for a 6 volt 7.2 volts. This is because you need more voltage to charge the battery.

 

So your nominal 12 volt car is running on 14.5 volts most of the time.

 

A little confusing but it helps to understand what is going on with old electric cars and other battery powered equipment.

[Restorer32]

The fact that your car is still running at 115 years of age says a lot for early engineers and their understanding of electricity.

[CatBird]

14 hours ago, Roger Frazee said:

Catbird, check your private messages on this forum.

Got it, thanks

 

[CatBird]

I may have the answer to many questions. I have met a local guy who seems to have good knowledge of electric cars. He has restored several of these cars from the 1900s. He is coming by on Sunday to help me sort ours.  He also suggested I get an AC/DC Clamp ammeter from Harbor Freight. He, of course, insisted I get a clamp ammeter that measures DC. Picking up one tomorrow. Looks like a good idea to have anyhow, but especially for an electric car.

 

https://www.harborfreight.com/600a-t-rms-acdc-clamp-meter-64015.html

 

I received a Schumacher battery charger that has 5 or 10 amp charge and can be regulated to 12 4o 72 volts. It has a timer, 12 hours or less. The timer has been added. Looks like a very professional job. This charger came with the car. It has been modified with a seven-pin trailer male connector that mates to a seven pin female connector that is connected to my car's wiring system. Guesstimating at 6 hours at 10 amps. Very simple and clean. The plug-in was way, up underneath the car.

 

My docs suggested that I remove the key. then bring the lever forward to the largest speed (using all the batteries) to get a full charge. Seems like the perfect way to connect and charge the car.

 

http://www.batterychargers.com/se-1072/

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 11, 2018 by CatBird (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

Sounds like you are getting up to speed on the electric cars.  Would like to add, that it is better to charge the batteries slowly if you have the time. And even 10 amps is a slow charge for the number of batteries you have.

[CatBird]

Interesting information from the guy I mentioned Steve Normandin. A wealth of knowledge. We talked about esoteric subjects regarding Nikola Tesla, Ferme, Edison, Steinmetz, and the early cars and batteries. 

He was amazed that our car is so completely original! He was so fascinated by seel one in such condition, he walked by a 1916 Pierce Arrow and only noticed it later! <grin> When you are in love with something the rest of the world fades away! 

 

Some tips:
 

In a series circuit (as I have) the weakest link is the weakest battery. One of my batteries was weak and putting out slightly less than nine volts, so that was the strongest current available. I am replacing that battery.

 

Apparently, six-volt batteries have greater amperage. I would have more horsepower if I had all 6v batteries. Since I have 6 12v batteries to get 72v, I would have more power with 12 6v batteries which would give greater amperage. 

 

I have one wire that has been replaced, undersized, it is about ten gauge (red in the picture) and I am replacing it with 2 gauge. A bit of dielectric grease will help and I am cleaning all contacts, even though they seem pretty good.

He thinks I have a 2hp motor and it could have more batteries. I am at 72v and could have 96v. It does struggle on some uphill drives. He also suggested I keep the speed down going downhill - using the brakes - to not overspin the motor. .

He mentioned various viscosities for oil/lubrication. As we know to avoid detergent oils. That is about it, so we took the car around the neighborhood and had a good test drive!m It is a sweet little car. I certainly understand the fascination with the early cars over gasoline. It is very simple. Bulletproof. Quiet, only sound of the tires. Easy to start, you just move the lever forward. No noxious fumes. No cranking, No gear shift. No clutch. None of the complications of a gasoline or steam vehicle. Cool and sophisticated. A word I don't use often, it is green. My wife loves it. Certainly a women car. It is EASY!

 

So I took another drive in our 1916 Pierce Arrow. I always get a thrill when that giant 525 cubic inch engine slowly turns over, catches and comes to life!

[Rusty_OToole]

I don't know what is wrong with detergent oils. But for the last few years I have been using synthetic oil in my oil can. It seems to work much better on everything. I have several electric fans which I took apart, cleaned up and oiled with synthetic oil. They run smoother and quieter. When I turn one off the blade spins for a long time which suggests that friction and wear are cut to a minimum. Also there is modern dielectric grease made for lubricating and protecting electrical switches. You could use some to protect your connections and contacts.

 

If you ever need to replace bearings use oilite bearings soaked overnight in synthetic oil.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

12 hours ago, CatBird said:

As we know to avoid detergent oils.

on what basis? Non-additive oils are probably made from the poorest oil stock available. Please do some research on this topic.

 

Oils with additives are far, far better than non-additive oils. They behave like a thin oil when cold and lose much less viscosity as they warm. As Rusty says, there is NOTHING wrong with "detergent" oils. And the best lubrication with least wear comes from synthetic oils - wear tests show that ANY synthetic oil is better than ALL mineral oils at minimising wear.

[Rusty_OToole]

I notice your drive chain is covered at the bottom but open at the top. I wonder if there was a cover that went missing? Are there bolt holes where a tin cover could be fastened on? A covered chain will last twice as long as one run in the open. One that is covered and kept clean and lubricated will last 5 times as long. You could at least wipe it clean with a rag and lube with motorcycle chain lube.

[Spinneyhill]

I found the best way to lubricate my motorcycle chain was with a grease chain lubricant. It came in a shallow, wide, press lid can. You heated it up to thin the grease, put the washed and dried chain in and the liquid grease went into all the little spaces. This was good lubricant and not a wetting agent (as oil is) so dust and dirt don't stick to it much (and turn to grinding paste).

 

Oil is thrown off. Grease not so much. So you don't get the rooster tail of oily muck off the chain as it goes onto the sprocket.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)