Caddy59

89 Firebird V6 doesn´t start anymore

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1 hour ago, JACK M said:

I have worked on thousands of cars in my life and still do.

However if my 03 Dakota wont start I will have to take it to someone that understands it. Same with my Powerstroke.

Some cars that are now considered to be antique cant be fixed without the right knowledge or trouble shooting tools, just like brand new cars.

I have an ASE certified nephew that calls me on occasion to ask me about carburetors or points.

Trying to save  buck on these things is futile.

 

Just because you choose not to learn about or procure tools for newer cars doesn't mean that only a dealer can fix them.  Repairing ANY car requires the right knowledge and troubleshooting tools.  You'd be amazed at how many first-time owners of older cars have no idea how to install or adjust points, or what a dwell meter and timing light are.

 

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@Jack M:

All my approach to find out why my cars doesn´t run is logical.  I am myself  mechanic since 40 years and I´ve worked in motor racing for a long time. I have found out that the reason is not the sparking, there´s no fault code, fuel pressure is tested and ok, just the injectors doesn´t work, there´s no crank rpm sensor, this function is covered by the distributor.

Due to the fact that I´m German and the cars are not very popular over here, it´s very helpful if someone how Joe Padavano can advice some checking procedures due to his experience. I´ve checked out the wiring chart, but unfortunately some items are black boxes and it´s not possible to figure out the complete function of all components. So it´s a bit of instinct to find the problem.....but definitly it´s not the way to take the car to a whatever garage where the guys are not specific specialists of this car. Without better wiring charts, no one can find out the problem better or quicker. I´ve now spent appr. 4 hours of searching in summary, however the car is broken down 8 weeks before. I have 4 other cars to work on, one 59 cadillac engine to rebuild :rolleyes:

Anyway, thanks to everyone who takes the time to advice sth.

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I guess I should have said "Futile to me"

My history is in marine propulsion. Mostly out board motors, mysteries to most that own them. Same as these computer controlled cars are mysteries to me.

Coming away from the auto trade to boats in the mid seventies, the auto technology passed me by.

Those that came along with that technology always make it look easy just like I make boats look easy. But I wont beat my head up against a wall on something that I don't understand.

I learned a long time ago not to try and beat a guy at his own trade.

I have followed tis thread with interest, but you have me confused.

Caddy, I hope you get it figured out before you pull all of your hair out. :D

Joe, I agree that most car owners don't know how they work. I wish they did, it would make my life easier. I am trying to be retired...

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On ‎6‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 5:29 AM, Caddy59 said:

@Joe Padavano: Sorry, what is VATS? (Remember I´m German :unsure:)

    If you should mean an immobiliser, yes, but it just bypasses the starter wiring. If it would have been failed, the car wouldn´t crank any more. But since it cranks, so I assume that it´s not the reason.

 

@Digger914: I think in any way the injectors have to work when cranking, I have the fuel rail removed (but connected to the fuel line) and can look when starting if the are injecting or not. Till now, they don´t, I will check it out the next days with the new distributor (hoping there was the rpm signal missing on the old one). I will try to look for the injector signal at the plugs. But if there is one, all injectors has to be broken what wouldn´t be realistic.

 

 

The multiport defaults to all spritz on start because the engine doesn't know which cylinder is next to fire until it gets position signal. Choke on starting is a computer thought process that considers sensors from throttle position, engine temp and air to feed the injectors. If the engine controller doesn't see crank signal it stops spritzing fuel. Pulling the MAP forces cold default start readings and with spark moving from plug to plug as you've described  you should get a good spritz of fuel. Be careful with this, tube your injectors to a safe collection location, spritzing fuel with sparking plugs, can cause explosive flash.   

 

As you have fuel pressure, if you spritz no fuel you are looking for wire connection or engine controller.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, JACK M said:

I guess I should have said "Futile to me"

My history is in marine propulsion. Mostly out board motors, mysteries to most that own them. Same as these computer controlled cars are mysteries to me.

 

With world wide parts sourcing, programing software for computer controlled cars is the only real mystery that manufactures have to protect parts sales and service. I have recently discovered that marine propulsion has its own illuminati as I purchased an old boat to get the 1971 black Mercury 650 and it is nothing like the little red headed Scott Atwater that I kept running for years and years and years.

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Guys,

thanks for your comments, today I have to report success: After fitting the new distributor ( what includes as well a small control unit) the injectors were firing !!!!

Unfortunately, in the meantime battery voltage was very low and the injectors of the right bank (1,2 and 3) were working , on the left bank only 6, 2 + 4 not yet. To your info: I can´t start the engine in this condition, because to get access to the injectors, I have to remove the upper part of the inlet manifold and have to remove the throttle, some vacuum lines, EGR tube a.s.o. and the engine can´t run this way. I just can check if the inj. are firing.  I guess it was a result of the low voltage what was hardly enough to crank the engine. As far as i know, with less voltage than 9 volts the ECU doesn´t work and maybe that the voltage was as low when starting. Now I have the battery on the charger and tomorrow  will try again, the engine is completed and finish to start. To my opinion, it was the crank signal from the distributor out of the small control unit what wasn´t present and that was the reason why the inj. didn´t fire. I can´t believe that there´s another issue what came up with the 2 injectors 2+4, I hope the engine runs tomorrow ok. I will tell you tomorrow whats going on.

@Jack: No Problem, but you see that I didn´t hit my head ?‍♀️

@ Digger: Funny, I didn´t know the word "spritzing". First I thought you will kidding me because in German injecting is "Spritzen" . Was really funny when I found out that it´s a correct English term, i never heard it ??? The engine needs a 1st cylinder position, but then all injectors of bank 1 are firing together and all of bank 2. You see it as well on the wiring chart. On the cyl. what needs the fuel one cycle later, the fuel will be "stored". Thats no problem. Sequential injection wasn´t usual at this time.

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@Caddy59,  With mechanical distributors the 9 volts isn't exactly set in stone, and at 10 years old some controllers didn't work at 10 volts while others worked well enough to get you home from 20 miles away with a fried alternator  and a battery so low that turning on the headlights, or even pushing in the cigarette lighter drew enough power to kill the engine.

Spritzing is the English spelling of spritzen, und ich nech seir gut spell auch Deuitch

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Guys,

Unfortunately the car is f***ing kidding me....it doesn´t run as I hoped yesterday. The engine was completed and with the new charged battery it didn´t start again. With spraying brake cleaner into the throttle whilst starting, it starts immediately as long as I sprayed, afterwards it breaks down again. I removed again the manifold and put out the injectors, tried again to start and sometimes a bit of injection, but very diffusely…..I have put ground to one side of the injector plugs and they sprayed all the time. Next test will be to measure the pulsing of the injector wire from the ECU as Joe recommended. If there is none, I would suppose that the ECU is the reason…..

 

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3 hours ago, Caddy59 said:

. If there is none, I would suppose that the ECU is the reason…..

 

 

OR it could be the VATS, as I have posted about three times now.  You seem determined to spend money on an ECU, however.

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If you don't have a bad wire connection and pulling the MAP plug doesn't get you started you might just need the ECU and luckily the car is old enough that the ECU doesn't need to be programed to the car so you don't need special tools and software to install a remanufactured or good used part.  

 

This might help and it could be a wild goose chase. A few years back, more than 10 less than 20, I got a rust free 85 Firebird V6 out of Nevada, everything that baked in the sun needed to be replaced. The car was low mileage, the air blew cold and it ran like a champ until it did about the same thing to me as your car is doing to you. I was in a parking lot, no code from turning the key to count light flashes and pulling the MAP didn't get it started, but it seemed like it wanted to start. Eventually I got mad and put the gas peddle to the floor and cranked the engine like it had a carburetor. The car started, it ran like crap, blew black smoke out the exhaust and I had to play with the foot feed all the way home. I checked for vacuum leaks, replaced the MAP, then the throttle position sensor, then checked every wire and cleaned every connection After I replaced the engine computer I had the car towed in to Pontiac. $1.50 in parts and a couple hundred dollars in labor later, I got the car back and it was running like a champ. A vacuum T was melted almost closed on one end, you couldn't see it with the hose on, it wasn't laying on the engine block or exhaust manifold and the mechanic that handed me the bad part couldn't say for certain what caused it.

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Guys,

now the problem is fixed finally and I would like you to know it. It was one injector of cyl. 4, it has had a shortcut inside. I found it out with starting the engine with fuel pressure and looking to the spray pattern. Then I found that the complete left bank doesn´t spray, the right bank did. Then i started to measure the resistance of the injectors and I found the fourth with nearly no resistance, just 1 ohm.

The others were figured out with about 12,8 ohm. This shows an shortcut within the fourth inj. Looking to the wiring chart, I found that all injectors of one bank are fused with one fuse together. Due to the short and it´s low resistance, i could calculate that theres a voltage of about  12 amps. what makes the fuse of this bank knock out, so no injector of this bank is spraying at all.. 

 

Today, after changing alle injectors to new ones ( thanks to rockauto) and a new fuse the car was running as never would has been broken down. 

Thanks to all who gave their  advices to me !

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