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old-tank

New Scheme: second sway bar on a 55

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As far as bar diameter sizing, the front bar should be larger as that's the heaviest end of the car, with just a driver and front seat passenger.  Adding a rear bar to help balance the roll movement in a turn, can work wonders, IF it's sized correctly for the loads it will experience.

 

For example, my '77 Camaro came with a 1" front bar and a .562" rear bar in the non-Z/28 F-41 suspension option.  The Z/28 used a 1.25" front bar with a '75" rear bar.

 

IF the bar is too big, the ride on rough roads will deteriorate as the bar will act like an additional stiff spring, adding to the existing spring load actions.  When one wheel drops down and the other one stays on the flat/level pavement.  Best to use smaller bars, but more of them, than one BIG bar on the front.

 

The bigger front bar puts more of the cornering forces to the front, which can mean the traction limits of the existing tires will be deteriorated.  Adding the rear bar puts some of that cornering force to the rear wheels, which makes them "work" too, balancing the handling in the process.

 

NTX5467

 

 

Edited by NTX5467 (see edit history)

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Willie's solution is way past novel......maybe he should have an alias like "Old Tank Goldberg"

 

Have you checked with ADDCO?

They have been making sway bars and kits for a long time, it would not surprise me that they already have something for your Buick

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On 4/29/2018 at 4:11 PM, old-tank said:

 

 

Got a  better attachment of the bars.  Road test:  good control of sway/lean, but not as good as my other one with 1 inch bar  (but that one has heavy springs and radials).  Maybe some resident engineers can calculate the control of two 11/16 inch bars vs one 1 inch bar.

Still not satisfied with the setup.  Tire rubs at full R or L lock.   Grind on bracket?  Buy smaller brackets ($$$)?  I have an idea...more later.

I'd replace your original sway bar bushings and link pins and then give another test drive; they look pretty tired.

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3 hours ago, lancemb said:

I'd replace your original sway bar bushings and link pins and then give another test drive; they look pretty tired.

planned...:D 

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sway.jpg.49977cb2cca40d3459d7fb6be20d9d9c.jpg

 

Final product.  All firm bushings.  Works great.

It is best to buy a reproduction one inch bar, but since they are not available this is definitely an alterntive

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Having them parallel versus how you had them before will definitely help. Without knowing the exact spring rate of the bar, it's a bit difficult to gauge exactly how much better the setup really is. You might loose some suspension travel with shorter links, too. How tight did you make the bushings? 

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7 hours ago, Beemon said:

Having them parallel versus how you had them before will definitely help. Without knowing the exact spring rate of the bar, it's a bit difficult to gauge exactly how much better the setup really is. You might loose some suspension travel with shorter links, too. How tight did you make the bushings? 

According to a previous vendor of the one inch bars:  HERE

113lb/ft spring rate for the stock bar, his one inch are 500lb/ft (?)  I am getting as much control as my other car with the one inch and this one has softer springs.  A local road with lots of curves and heaves rated at 35 mph was manageable at 50 mph as well as modern iron.  There is one rubber bushing in the system that is squashed down to usual installation...the other synthetic bushings did not squash.  I have no directions on how to install the synthetic.   

I was hoping one out resident engineers would calculate the spring rate of the two bars.😎  ...it seems better than 226lb/ft .

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Sorry to be a wet blanket, but you do realise the eyes at the end of say bars are going to travel through a different arc

 

Its going to tear itself to bits

 

Your first farmer design was probably safer

 

 

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Perhaps a spring shop could bend up some (correct alloy) bar stock that would fit just inside the existing bar (to which it would be attached, mechanically), rather than using two bars mounted parallel to each other?

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18 hours ago, Ttotired said:

Sorry to be a wet blanket, but you do realise the eyes at the end of say bars are going to travel through a different arc

 

Its going to tear itself to bits

 

Your first farmer design was probably safer

 

 

Ok Mick, after peeling that moldy web blanket off my head and wiping the slime out of my eyes, I still ain't seein' it.  After about 200 miles of 'spirited' driving on lumpy roads everything is in place.  So I removed the links and rotated the bars through the approximate range ofsuspension travel and you are right...there is some difference in the arc, but not enough to cause a bind on the link bolt and even then the deflection in the frame and link bushings should compensate.  This might be more of a problem on one of those off-road racing vehicles with very long suspension travel.  Gonna go take a shower and remind myself to check everything at oil change time.😎

Edited by old-tank (see edit history)
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Well I’ll be!!! And looks like they have been available since 2007!!! Velly, velly intwesting!!! 

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Stay away form Quickor.  They have been in and out of business (mostly out...) since before 2007.  I got my first bar from them 15 years ago.  I sent my old bar and a check and 4 months later got my bar.  This was after unanswered phone calls and when they did answer it was promises unfulfilled (shame on them!).

5 years a ago I was 'desperate' and gave them another chance.  Sent a second bar (since they lost the pattern) and a credit car number.  I never did get the second bar and it took a year to get the money back from the card company (shame on me!) 

Ordering off their website does not work and if you call they might answer, but you will have to ask if this is Quickor.

Besides, I have a workable solution and the satisfaction that I did it myself.

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Might it be that Quickor is a "part-time" company that is related to a more "full-time" entity that better pays the bills?

 

The other question might be what's unique to the bar stock used to build anti-roll bars that might prevent such things from being built by a larger spring shop with an on-site kiln?  Other than configuring the sockets where the link bolt grommets contact.

 

Congratulations on your achievements, Old-Tank!  Now, you just need some sticky radials to go play at the  local SCCA auto-crosses!

 

NTX5467

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From what I've been able to find....

 They sold out years ago to the Warn winch company but they didn't do much with it. About 2012 or so the original guy bought back the name and what few patterns were left. Warn had destroyed most of the old patterns. The address shows as it being just down the road from me. I'll try and do a drive by and see what the shop looks like. I want to get a bigger sway bar for my 61 also so I'm interested to see if they are still operating.

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Just got off the phone with the owner. He is still in business but mostly retired. He was out of town at the time and couldn't look up the info for 54-56 sway bar but will be back tomorrow. I will be out of town starting tomorrow until next weekend. He said orders are about a month out this time of year.  So... it looks promising at least!! Since I'm just a couple miles away maybe I can help out in some way. I am going to stop by and try to get one made for my car.

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1 large single bar is whats required here, I really am quite surprised that the knowledge base that is evident here are not advising "Old Tank" as I have

 

Ask any engineer about this set up, its just dangerous. When that lets go, it will do so in a corner and suddenly alter the handling of the car which has the potential

to cause loss of control.

 

I am willing to back down from this if anyone can show me where this "set up" has been used in a production or even professional race situation

 

I know its not a race car, but its a big heavy lumbering car that has a lot of body roll without a sway bar and much less with it. What happens when it suddenly gets a lot of body roll again?

 

 

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I understand the issues of failure at the most inopportune time!  It would not surprise me if a similar dual-bar set-up was not used in the earlier days of NASCAR when "race tires" were "truck tires".

 

I don't think the bars themselves would be the issue, but the link bolts MIGHT.  This is why the arc the ends of the bars make as the wheels move up and down is important and need to be of similar forces to not focus the bulk of the forces in one particular area.  The ball-type shapes of the link bolt grommets and the ends of the sway bars can allow for such movements.

 

BUT . . . my '77 Camaro with the 1.25" front Z/28 bar on it has broken link bolts before.  I didn't notice it until I saw it when parked and the wheels turned.  No real "lean" issues, but then the car is sprung stiffer than a "floating" Buick typically is.  I had the polyurethane link bolt grommets on it when that happened.

 

I'll concur that a bigger and stiffer single bar would be the optimum way to do things, BUT in absence of such, "lemonade" happens.

 

NTX5467

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16 hours ago, Ttotired said:

1 large single bar is whats required here, I really am quite surprised that the knowledge base that is evident here are not advising "Old Tank" as I have

 

Ask any engineer about this set up, its just dangerous. When that lets go, it will do so in a corner and suddenly alter the handling of the car which has the potential

to cause loss of control.

 

I am willing to back down from this if anyone can show me where this "set up" has been used in a production or even professional race situation

 

I know its not a race car, but its a big heavy lumbering car that has a lot of body roll without a sway bar and much less with it. What happens when it suddenly gets a lot of body roll again?

 

 

Mick, I appreciate your concern, but where is the failure likely to happen? a bar? link bolt? brackets? frame? link attachment on lower control arm?

 

The one Quickor bar that I have works great, but the only way I would deal with them again would be for them to send me a bar and if satisfactory, THEN send payment!

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The link bolt. With the movement of the suspension arm up the top bar is going to pull the top of the bolt towards the front of the car, the lower bar will tend to push the bolt towards the rear of the car in relation to the top bars movement. This will try to push the bottom of the bolt towards the rear of the car which it cant do, so it will break either the top or bottom off the bolt.

 

Mate, don't take my word for it, take it to a shop and ask them

 

 

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I first put it together with the original 5/16 inch link bolt with some crusty bushings.  No bending or witness marks after 50 miles of 'spirited' driving.  The replacement link bolt is 3/8 inch.  Too hot to deal with now...I'll just drive and watch for problems.  Thanks for you concern.

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