Lacquer paint on my 55 century

[buckeye2]

the paint on the hood of my 55 Century is starting to show small cracks in the original paint on the hood. I talked to a paint shop and was told that if I painted

over the original paint with a clear coat it would stop the old age cracking problem. I'm in doubt about this, has anyone ever tried this far out idea?

Thank you 

buckeye 2

[old-tank]

All cracked paint needs to be removed.

 

[KongaMan]

You can melt it back together (within reason) by spraying it with lacquer retarder.  That's a slow-acting thinner that will soften the finish.  It will then flow back together.  Depending on the condition of the finish and the size of the crack, you might be lucky enough to make the repair undetectable.  It's important to use retarder rather than standard lacquer thinner; the normal stuff flashes off too quickly and the paint never softens and flows.  Of course, the corollary is that it takes the finish longer to dry.

Edited April 16, 2018 by KongaMan (see edit history)

[buckeye2]

Thank you for the reply. I  think that I will leave it  the way it is.The problem is on the hood, from 10 ft away the paint looks new.

buckeye 2

[thegnu]

12 hours ago, old-tank said:

All cracked paint needs to be removed.

 

THIS IS SPOT ON .  I as a bodyman could give no better advise .

 

[Restorer32]

There is no difference between thinner and reducer. Two names for the same thing. There are however several different speeds of reducers (thinners). The hotter the day the slower reducer (thinner) you want to use. Conversely on a cool day you want a fast reducer (thinner). 

[KongaMan]

9 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

There is no difference between thinner and reducer. Two names for the same thing. There are however several different speeds of reducers (thinners). The hotter the day the slower reducer (thinner) you want to use. Conversely on a cool day you want a fast reducer (thinner). 

Brain cramp: I meant to type "retarder".  Repeated applications of straight retarder on a finish with mild checking can work wonders.

[Dynaflash8]

19 hours ago, old-tank said:

All cracked paint needs to be removed.

 

This is also what several local paint shops have told me as well.  My '41 Roadmaster has some spider webs all over the car.  So, I've signed on to have a restoration shop strip the whole car and repaint it in base/clear.  Hate not being able to use oldtime lacquer, but nobody will do it.

 

I could have touched it up using a gallon of lacquer, a pint of retarder and lacquer primer that I have on hand, but there were just too many places. 

 

So, if anybody needs a gallon of black lacquer, a pint of retarder and a gallon of lacquer primer I guess I can make that available for break even price toward late May.  I want to be absolutely sure the restoration shop doesn't look it over and say it doesn't have to be totally repainted.  I have a friend in VA who visited and looked it over.  He said it could fix it all with one gallon of lacquer, but I can't get the car to him.  Besides, he's sold his longtime bodyshop and is only working there part time for the new owner.....for something to do.

[KongaMan]

38 minutes ago, Dynaflash8 said:

This is also what several local paint shops have told me as well.  My '41 Roadmaster has some spider webs all over the car.  So, I've signed on to have a restoration shop strip the whole car and repaint it in base/clear.  Hate not being able to use oldtime lacquer, but nobody will do it.

 

And therein lies the difference between preservation and restoration.  At some point, preservation becomes impractical, but -- like anything else -- it often falls victim to inexperience rather than impossibility.

 

It should also be pointed out that a lot of these guys only know how to do things one way; everything has to fit in the same box.  Therefore, it's color and clear, just like they're painting a Honda.  One might also think that a true restoration shop would know how to do a true restoration.  You're (presumably) paying them extra for their additional expertise.  If you're going to get a Honda paint job, you can take the car anywhere and save the money.  There's nothing unique about a 70-year-old fender that requires a magical spray gun or special technique.

[Dynaflash8]

41 minutes ago, KongaMan said:

 

And therein lies the difference between preservation and restoration.  At some point, preservation becomes impractical, but -- like anything else -- it often falls victim to inexperience rather than impossibility.

 

It should also be pointed out that a lot of these guys only know how to do things one way; everything has to fit in the same box.  Therefore, it's color and clear, just like they're painting a Honda.  One might also think that a true restoration shop would know how to do a true restoration.  You're (presumably) paying them extra for their additional expertise.  If you're going to get a Honda paint job, you can take the car anywhere and save the money.  There's nothing unique about a 70-year-old fender that requires a magical spray gun or special technique.

One problem is you can't get product.  I found this one gallon of left-over, unopened black lacquer with a classic car collector in New York.  Just one gallon, and it is acryllic lacquer, not nitrocellulous.  I couldn't find the blender anywhere (I misspoke when I called it retarder); but, I found one pint in a restoration shop in Iowa.  Being somewhat of a friend that I knew through AACA, he agreed to share it with me.  My painter friend in Virginia told me it takes very little.  Otherwise, I found it unobtainable.  The lacquer primer-surfacer was readily available at the local paint supplier.  There is a restoration shop paint supplier in Rhode Island who can supply lacquer, but he can't supply blending agent.  He says you go through a routine to "melt it in" using various viscoscities of thinner.  My friend in Virginia who has been in body shops since he was 9 years old (before and after school) until now, and who was born in 1950 said he'd never done that on a repair job.  In his opinion it was open to reliability concerns.  I just decided there were too many if's and too many places to fix.  Plus, I felt I'd be chasing my tail until there was NO paint or blending agent left.  I don't believe in "fixing at" a car where it is worn out, original or not.  It is true, it's only original once as they say, BUT that's the day it leaves the dealers showroom, not after 77 years.  I know it's the latest big thing with collectors, but I don't buy it.  If it's worn out, fix it, period, that's my philosophy.  So, since I'm approaching 80, I don't have time for another full-on restoration, so I'm going to build a 5-foot driver and enjoy this car.  I don't have room for anymore trophies anyway.

[KongaMan]

FYI, Bill Hirsch has nitro: http://www.hirschauto.com/GALLON-NITROCELLULOSE-LACQUER/productinfo/NITL-GAL/.

[thegnu]

6 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

There is no difference between thinner and reducer. Two names for the same thing. There are however several different speeds of reducers (thinners). The hotter the day the slower reducer (thinner) you want to use. Conversely on a cool day you want a fast reducer (thinner). 

sorry your incorrect there are vast differences in reducer an thinner .  reducer is used ONLY IN acrylic ENAMEL , eurethane base coats an clears ONLY . thinner is for laquer based products .  if you were to put reducer in a laquer product it WILL NOT BLEND . try it .

 

[NTX5467]

Same functions, different terms to differentiate between the two paint systems.  There are "heat" differences, too.

[buick man]

… Interesting discussion … some minor things I should point out is the following:  Today's standard shelf jobber  lacquer thinner is composed of the the cheap and fast evaporating acetone of all the ketones available …. a good correct lacquer thinner used in the proper application of lacquer paint is composed of various ketones all with varying rates of evaporation blended together at specific titrations to achieve the effective results under specific working conditions one desires …  

 

… Dynaflash8 if you are going to repaint your car completely may we suggest that you do not paint the car in a base/clear configuration but rather by using a single stage urethane … the reasons are many …. yet to be more specific the b/c job will never ever look even at 35 feet away even remotely original both in tone, color and depth because up close b/c jobs lack discernible depth of reflective color hues that a true multicoated lacquer job abounds in … however by using a single stage urethane one can create a nearly identical faux lacquer appearing paint job via a combination of application and applied coat thinning techniques.  The base coat of a b/c job is sprayed on and appears flat and any shine is the result of the clear coat applied over it … shiny yes but renders no hue depth to the paint … while the single stage urethane can not only offer depth but can be easily have imperfections repaired by simple color sanding or sectional spot painting with subsequent color sanding to blend in repairs …  

 

… Spraying any type of clear over your exiting original lacquer job is not a good idea because the adversarial solvents contained in the clear coat will melt the original lacquer adversely ...

 

… If you can get ahold of some specifically and correctly blended high quality good lacquer thinner to use in your black lacquer paint then you can melt / blend the repair areas successfully.  I think if memory serves me right,  Hybernia in New England has the facilities to create the lacquer you want ...

Edited April 17, 2018 by buick man (see edit history)

[Dynaflash8]

buick man:  They will strip the car, so the existing lacquer is no problem.  As for painting lacquer, nobody will do it.  I'm not sure it's even legal here in Florida in a commercial shop, hardly anything else is including gasoline except in low volume gas stations.  That is thanks to former Governor Charlie Crist.  I've heard various stories about single stage.  One shop told me it dulls fast in Florida sun, but of course my car isn't out in that often.  When you're almost 80 you have to do what you have to do.  Hybernia is the one that said they could not get blending agent.  They tried to tell about blending with various levels of slow-drying thinners.  None of those thinners were available i the local paint supplier either.  I'm not building a show car, just a nice 5-foot driver.  Most people don't even know how beautiful lacquer was by  comparison to today's paints.  You should see the orange peel in my 2017 Buick LaCrosse.  I realize that can to sanded and buffed out.  My Dodge Charger has a much better paint job that the Buick.  Who would have thought, back in the 50's, that a Ford or Chrysler product could have a better looking paint job than a GM car?

[thegnu]

1 hour ago, Dynaflash8 said:

.  Most people don't even know how beautiful lacquer was by  comparison to today's paints.  You should see the orange peel in my 2017 Buick LaCrosse.  I realize that can to sanded and buffed out.  My Dodge Charger has a much better paint job that the Buick.  Who would have thought, back in the 50's, that a Ford or Chrysler product could have a better looking paint job than a GM car?

yes you can get some incredible paint jobs with lacquer, although it does have its short comings by todays paint standards. such as it will never be as hard a finish as a single stage or base clear product, or with out proper care it looses its hold out an fades faster against uv . alternatively you can still get a lacquer like finish from a modern single stage buy using many of the same techniques like color sand an refinishing between coats of color  as 1 example  .

  paint jobs on the various makers vehicles can vary between models an makes an even the assembly plant it came from , I have seen it .

just some useless info I hope you all enjoy .

[buick man]

…. Dyna all good news … Are you aware that one can still obtain lacquer based systems from TCP the last time I checked … I purchased some from them about 7 years ago  here is the link to their color library and then follow the links to their paint purchasing pages:  

 

http://www.autocolorlibrary.com

 

…. The point I was trending was if you cannot find anyone to paint the car in lacquer go for the single stage paint job not the bc/cc because of the more accurate & visually pleasing end results comparable to the original factory paint … if you go bc/cc it will give the car a weird modern plastic coated look that the late eighties and nineties cars originally spearheaded via european cars like the Saabs and such … don't buy into this fade or upkeep mantra because for the most part our cars are at the least covered via one fashion or another either by tarp or garage kept and if you go to an old junk car yard there are still a lot of shiny factory lacquer and enamel paint jobs that still look good considering everything that has been thrown at them so that kinda debunks the doom and gloom scenarios regarding lacquers and enamels …  IF they strip the car make sure they use an epoxy first primer coat to clean metal and  ideally "mechanically" remove the original paint from the metal and then second choice would be removal via using acid … removing paint via soda blasting carries a lot of extra needed post prep worries and paint adhesion issues due to residues imbedding into the metal substrate and as such a lot of paint manufactures won't guarantee the job if the metal had been soda blasted before painting …. good luck and keep us posted ….

 

Edit:  Oh and there is no real mystery regarding painting a car via lacquer …. it's just that using an HVlLP gun shooting lacquer is not very practical because lacquer has to in a sense be vaporized onto a surface in a minimal of 7 coats via atomization via high pressure from the gun and an HVLP gun blows paint onto a surface like a garden hose … high volume low pressure … so the chemistry of the paint has to be adopted for this form of application and most shops if they are not true restorations shops are not set up for this and are instead mostly collusion repair centers that are geared for fast slam and bang turn arounds that only todays paint system can provide ….

Edited April 17, 2018 by buick man (see edit history)

[Dynaflash8]

buick man, the shop in Sarasota, FL does use mechanical means to strip the paint.  I don't know why painters don't want to use single stage instead of bc/cc exept labor.  That said, my friend in Virginia did paint my 71 Riviera in base coat/clear coat and it is truly smooth and beautiful too.  I always say if I can brush my teeth in the side of the door like my mirror, then the job is good enough.  I hate orange coat.  Almost every enamel job I saw back in the day had orange peel.  Glass smooth is the most important part of any paint job to me, followed by shine, followed by depth.  My old 41 Buick has all three of those things, except where it's chipped.  Even the spider webs shine.  I think it was repainted all or in part back in the 50's or early 60's because some or all of the spider webs have sunken and filled cracks, but no open cracks.  In a few places the paint has chipped right down to the metal, all are small though.  I have said I would never have another car painted in this lifetime.  In the past it has take years....7 years, 9 years and there is one out there now 2.5 y ears for a simple repaint.  Guys used to want to do work at home.  Now they take the job on, but are making too much money in the shops to want or care about going home and doing anything.  Times sure have changed.  But, this shop in Sarasota has a reputation for getting them in and out, and they don't do insurance work, just collector car work.

 

Edited April 17, 2018 by Dynaflash8 (see edit history)

[Frank DuVal]

Lacquer Blender was a mix of slow thinner (retarder) and lacquer clear.  If one had product and time, you could make your own. Not practical for a one use project. The clear was needed because if one was blending metallic paint up a "sail panel" i.e. C pillar, the melting of the overspray with slow thinner would expose the aluminum flake, making a halo and a repair that failed quick due to moisture attacking the aluminum. The clear slowed down the failure  time.

 

Several years ago I ordered slow lacquer thinner on line, as I noticed it was impossible to get it locally, and very few places online showed it in stock. I have not used it yet, so I do not know if it was an OK product or not....