kreed

73 triple black is now available (again) $$$$$

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

Apologies if I seemed too aggressive. I just get frustrated with the levels of dealer hate I find on this board. There are people here who have said they would never buy one of my cars simply because I'm a dealer, no matter what the car, the price, or how badly they wanted it, just because I don't "deserve" to make money from "their" hobby. There are people here who have said unkind things about me and my family because I'm a dealer ("How can you possibly raise decent, honest kids being in the business you're in?"). There are more than a few who have implied that I am the reason cars are too expensive for them (because without me, you could still buy a Model A from the farmer up the road for $25). There are many who say I am "destroying" their hobby--it's my hobby too. I rely on it to make a living, don't you think I cherish it at least as much as you do? It hurts because I've been a part of this hobby for 45 years, at least as long as some of you and longer than many of you. I am a hobbyist first and foremost, which you can see in the cars I own, the work I do on them, and the information I share for free, not for profit. Melanie and I work EXTREMELY hard to be honest and forthright with the cars we sell, and we never forget that people do this for fun. If I had to choose between selling a car and making some money and not selling a car but avoiding an unhappy car owner, I would choose the latter every single time. I'm sure as hell not getting rich doing this but at least I can look myself in the mirror and know that I'm not ripping people off. Go ahead and Google my name--you will find not one complaint (and the internet is where all the whiners inevitably end up).

 

I know not all dealers are like this (there's certainly a reason car dealers have the reputation they do), but we work very hard to not be like the other dealers. I can't vouch for all of them, but I suspect most are like me--trying to do the best they can with imperfect machines and customers with unreasonably high expectations. I think very few dishonest people go into this business intending to bilk people and take advantage of suckers, but now that I've been doing this for a number of years, I have also come to suspect that it is the clientele that drives the weaker-willed dealers to that kind of behavior because a lot of buyers are unreasonable and the urge is to simply say, "Screw these a-holes, they deserve what they get." Buyer expectations are often very unrealistic, standards are sometimes impossibly high, and most old cars are bound to have deficiencies, even if it's just a small oil leak or some rust on a driveshaft. Balancing expectations and reality is not only difficult, but incredibly frustrating, particularly if you're a dealer--everyone feels pretty comfortable reaching into my pocket because they expect that I will make imperfect things perfect. Imperfection is the default state of old cars. I promise that none of you can afford perfection, myself included. Stop expecting it.

 

Mostly I was trying to point out that you guys should be rooting for the guy to sell that car for a giant number. Regardless of your feelings about dealers and how much they're entitled to earn, if you own one of these cars, you should be this guy's biggest cheerleaders. Screw what you think you know about values--it's fluid and just because you're a hobbyist who specializes in these cars, that doesn't make you an expert on selling or pricing them. Like I said, most experts are just too close and don't see the trends until they're already well on their way--I find that the "experts" are often the last to see market forces changing. You have only historical models ("They've always been worth that much") but fail to see the influence on the market that non-experts have and changing trends. It's also an insular community made up of guys who already own and know the cars intimately, so there's an echo chamber that only reinforces outdated information, which is why you're always shocked when a car brings an abnormally big price. You're certainly not alone there--the '55-57 Chevy guys sure didn't see the fall coming but it's kicking their asses right this moment, just as it did the 2-seat T-Bird owners. The hobby is moving on, and it's moving on to cars like '60 and '70s Rivieras and prices are going to go up, like it or not. Change happens. Most collector car buyers are non-experts; they like what they like and while many do some basic homework, there are also plenty of guys who still understand buying with their hearts. Isn't that what the hobby is all about? 

 

 That's my only point. Those of you with 1971-73 Rivieras should be hoping that this guy gets a MASSIVE score with this car. You shouldn't be picking it apart to make yourself seem more knowledgeable and the dealer less so (we can't possibly know as much as you about your particular favorite car, so give us a break, eh? All we can do is know a little about a lot of different cars). You should be excited that it's out there with a giant number on it so the market can get accustomed to seeing big numbers on these cars. How awful would you feel if all dealers just started wholesaling these cars at half their value--and your car became LESS valuable because of it? You'd be pretty unhappy, right? So why the grumbling when it's going the other way and working in your favor? Just because the dealer might make a ton of money? Who cares? 

 

With sincere apologies, you probably don't know as much as you think you do when it comes to pricing and selling collector cars. Being in the hobby for years and reading Hemmings every month isn't enough. It's a lot different than you think it is. I thought I knew a lot from being involved in the hobby for decades until I started doing this for a living. Turns out, I didn't know squat. That's why it's a mistake to dismiss me (and this other dealer) as fools who don't know what they're doing. That car's gonna sell, and it will be closer to his number than the price guide number. Change is happening, like it or not (you should really like it, by the way). 

 

That's all I'm saying. Sorry I riled everyone up. Please continue enjoying your cars.

 

Matt I have to disagree with you on the point that we should be hoping this guy gets a MASSIVE score with this car.  I truly believe you are missing the point that what everyone is trying to say is the dealer is trying to hype this car as being a #1 councours car when in reality it is a low 2 to 3 car and it does not justify the ridiculous price he is asking.

 

Bob Bonto

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Boatail Rivs are not only gaining steam in the states, but really seemed to be admired also overseas. Compared to many other vehicles I see go for around $80k, it is relatively solid. The black paint I think helped it sell well in the B-J auction and then the recent one the current owners purchased it from. So a color change can really sometimes up the value, yet personally I think I would like to see this storm trooper In the original Arctic white. I actually don’t recall seeing many white boatails, probably because they all get painted black! Hehehe.

 

There is also the differentiation of how Riviera nerds like us and the general public speak about the details. 

 

But it it is a reminder to be truthful, yet respectful on these open forums.

Edited by Chimera (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems to me that the subject at hand is that what some consider to be unscrupulous sellers are overstating cars to buyers who are uneducated.  So where's the real problem?  Sellers hyping cars which they know little to nothing about, or buyers looking at cars which they know little or nothing about.  Caveat Emptor.  If you don't know what you're looking at, perhaps you should stay away.  If you don't know what you're selling, don't act as if you do.

 

If the two wind up and strike a deal, shame on both. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been involved with purchases that, repeatedly, have conflicts at the end. Buyers going out looking for competitive bids, duh.

 

After all these years it boils down to- "Someone didn't know what they were buying from someone who didn't know what they were selling". Due diligence first and don't marry what you buy, be prepared to unload if you aren't happy.

 

I do empathize with Matt. Ever since Snidley Whiplash, the capitalist rental house owner first tied a young maiden to the railroad tracks, businessmen have been painted as the bad guys by everyone, their brother, and the neighbor's dog.

 

Even today it affects me. I used to stop at the specialty cars dealers and look around, sometimes buy, but a few years ago I stopped in a place near Rochester and then one near Buffalo. The owners were jerks and acted like they just came out of one of those unreality car shows. Not my thing, I just drive by any I see now. Matt is about 4 hours from me and I wouldn't mind stopping in, but don't want to waste his time. As to the other honest guys just trying to make a living, I guess I will miss meeting them. The risk of meeting a TV wannbe is too high. I'll drive by and save a few bucks.

Bernie

Edited by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Being a first-gen Riv owner I don't usually weigh in on later Rivs, but kudos to Vanguard for the video and all the photos. No doubt it's a nice example. But as far as I know, GS or not, the 71s and 72s are those that typically bring the higher $$ in such condition (not $80K). I compare this to cars in my other vintage world, where the Series 1 E-type Jaguars trump the Series 2 and Series 3 models all day long. IMO, someone poured a lots of $$ into getting Riv up to this level, and is now seeking a return on his/her investment, which is their prerogative.  But there's a a saying in the vintage car world that says one did not over pay - they just bought too early. Still, at $80K, that wait from "too early" may be a long time in coming . AFAIK, the 73's fat front bumper is a negative given the much more pure lines of the 71 or 72. Just my 2c.    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 73 bumper makes up in function, which it lacks in form. Best bumper in history during use.

 

yeah, 71s R Hot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/27/2018 at 11:49 AM, Matt Harwood said:

Apologies if I seemed too aggressive. I just get frustrated with the levels of dealer hate I find on this board. There are people here who have said they would never buy one of my cars simply because I'm a dealer, no matter what the car, the price, or how badly they wanted it, just because I don't "deserve" to make money from "their" hobby. 

 

As a buyer I don't care about dealer profit, I care about the value of my purchase, which admittedly is somewhat subjective.  if dealer prices are higher than private owners I need to see the value added.

 

 

On 4/27/2018 at 11:49 AM, Matt Harwood said:

 

Mostly I was trying to point out that you guys should be rooting for the guy to sell that car for a giant number. Regardless of your feelings about dealers and how much they're entitled to earn, if you own one of these cars, you should be this guy's biggest cheerleaders. 

 

 

 

That would be true if I was looking at old cars primarily as an investment.  Until I'm ready to sell it's more important that the cars I love be affordable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/25/2018 at 2:44 PM, Matt Harwood said:

If he gets his price, that's another valid data point that suggests YOUR cars are getting more valuable, too.

 

An outlier =/= a trend.  Period.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1973 Buick Riviera promotion movie, mixed with images and movie clips of Dutch Buick Rivieras. Title of the song is "Two tons of steel", performed by Buddard.

 

Even though the videos are of the Dutch Rivieras the words describe a 1963.  Listen closely at the 1:13 minute mark.  "It's got a V8 engine that was made in '63....."

Edited by RivNut (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now