kreed

73 triple black is now available (again) $$$$$

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Wow, that is crazy money!  I thought $46k was a lot for it.  I guess black sells, wonder what it would have brought if it was still factory white????

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Many dealers ask double a car's value,

and often double what they just paid.

I've seen MORE than double being asked.

Asking prices are sometimes so high

that they are really irrelevant, so don't assume

they will get even close to that price.

 

Black may be seen today as a sporty color--

there are an awful lot of blacks, whites, and grays

filling today's somber parking lots--

but in 1973 black was seen as more of a formal

color, or even one reserved for funerals.  In the

late 1970's, a friend of my parents' bought a new

1977 Lincoln Town Car.  He wanted black, but the

dealer told him it would be hard to resell to anything

but a funeral home, so he got a beautiful maroon.

 

I think a good, fair mark-up between friends or

fellow Buick hobbyists is a much better path to take.

 

 

Edited by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)
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9 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

Many dealers ask double a car's value,

and often double what they just paid.

I've seen MORE than double being asked.

Asking prices are sometimes so high

that they are really irrelevant, so don't assume

they will get even close to that price.

 

Black may be seen today as a sporty color--

there are an awful lot of blacks, whites, and grays

filling today's somber parking lots--

but in 1973 black was seen as more of a formal

color, or even one reserved for funerals.  In the

late 1970's, a friend of my parents' bought a new

1977 Lincoln Town Car.  He wanted black, but the

dealer told him it would be hard to resell to anything

but a funeral home, so he got a beautiful maroon.

 

I think a good, fair mark-up between friends or

fellow Buick hobbyists is a much better path to take.

 

 

Thank you for your remarks. I just never understood how manufacturers determined color schemes for automobiles. Your explanation regarding the color black on cars made me more aware. Also, purchasing a vintage car at a fair markup from another club member is an outstanding way to acquire a vintage automobile. One purchase of a vintage car from a dealer was a lesson I dearly paid.

RRB

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I've seen this phenomenon before and I can't explain it. If he gets his price, that's another valid data point that suggests YOUR cars are getting more valuable, too. Why would you mock him for that? You should be cheering and hoping he gets it. This isn't taking anything away from you or removing all the Rivieras from the market. Were any of you the ones who sent me the angry E-mails when I sold that stunning turquoise '65 seven years ago for $35,000, telling me I was crazy and a fool and that it was way too much for a Riviera? How much is a car like that worth today? Things change and sometimes you can be too close to see it. I wish I had $100 every time an "expert" told me my price was too high. I could send my kids to college.

 

I watch the auctions and when I see a car come on the block that's similar to one I have for sale, I don't hope that it sells cheap--I want it to sell for the biggest number possible! How is this situation any different? Does your dealer hate outweigh your own self interest? Why?

 

This also happened to me when I was the first to sell a six-figure 1948 Dodge Power Wagon. Power Wagon fans laughed, they sent hate mail saying I was a crook and an idiot, and all those guys were absolutely convinced that their old Power Wagons were worth $7500 and they liked it that way. They are now selling them for $80,000--and getting it. Who looks like a fool now? Do you mock your neighbor when he sells his house for $250,000 more than you paid for yours or are you happy that it's another comp that can be used to bolster the case that yours has become more valuable when it comes time to sell? Perspective matters--look at this as a market adjustment in your favor.

 

Seriously, be smart about this. This is only good for you, not bad. I know dealer hate is a favorite pastime, but this should be good news if you own one of these cars.

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I looked at the rest of the cars Vanguard has for sale on Ebay and then at their website. Every car was photographed in from of the same building. That is a plus. And they claim to own all the cars, without consigning. A 60,000 square foot building puts them into a pretty good overhead and it looks like they sunk some money into four post lifts.

42 cars are listed on Ebay with only a couple under $30,000. And no completed sales on Ebay, must be negotiating.

Being a legal, licensed business they are handing out a good chunk of the mark up to their silent partners in taxes, fees, and other administrative costs. It is expensive to run a business. You can't keep the doors open on the comradery  of the hobby. And there are probably two handfuls of people supporting their families through the business.

It is one of the healthy signs of a hobby that could be dying.

 

I have never been much of a price shopper on cars. My 80 grand would go toward that little house on Grand Cayman if I was spending. But I can tell you, over the past 50 years the best cars I have owned were the ones people told me I paid too much for. I am not a customer for that Riviera, but I can assure you, the overpriced car will attract me quicker than a bargain. I have just turned around and sold most of those bargain cars.

Bernie

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While i'm not against any dealer making a fair profit, this is just plain ridiculous to think anyone with a half of brain would pay $80K for this car. As my mother would always tell me, a fool and his money are soon parted. The facts are that that the boattails are not commanding that kind of $ no matter  what condition it is in. Check the Hagerty valuation values. Asking $80K and getting it are entirely two different items. https://www.hagerty.com/apps/valuationtools/1973-Buick-Riviera-GS 

 

Bob Bonto

25 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

I've seen this phenomenon before and I can't explain it. If he gets his price, that's another valid data point that suggests YOUR cars are getting more valuable, too. Why would you mock him for that? You should be cheering and hoping he gets it. This isn't taking anything away from you or removing all the Rivieras from the market. Were any of you the ones who sent me the angry E-mails when I sold that stunning turquoise '65 seven years ago for $35,000, telling me I was crazy and a fool and that it was way too much for a Riviera? How much is a car like that worth today? Things change and sometimes you can be too close to see it. I wish I had $100 every time an "expert" told me my price was too high. I could send my kids to college.

 

I watch the auctions and when I see a car come on the block that's similar to one I have for sale, I don't hope that it sells cheap--I want it to sell for the biggest number possible! How is this situation any different? Does your dealer hate outweigh your own self interest? Why?

 

This also happened to me when I was the first to sell a six-figure 1948 Dodge Power Wagon. Power Wagon fans laughed, they sent hate mail saying I was a crook and an idiot, and all those guys were absolutely convinced that their old Power Wagons were worth $7500 and they liked it that way. They are now selling them for $80,000--and getting it. Who looks like a fool now? Do you mock your neighbor when he sells his house for $250,000 more than you paid for yours or are you happy that it's another comp that can be used to bolster the case that yours has become more valuable when it comes time to sell? Perspective matters--look at this as a market adjustment in your favor.

 

Seriously, be smart about this. This is only good for you, not bad. I know dealer hate is a favorite pastime, but this should be good news if you own one of these cars.

 

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                  No 71 to 89 model GM  full size car other than a zero mile 76 Eldorado  BiCentennial convertible is worth 80,000 dollars.

This price is totally out of whack, not out in left field but down the street from the stadium.  Hagerty price guide which is based on actual sales results up to the present show a perfect no. 1 car at 27,500 dollars. 

Edited by Seafoam65 (see edit history)

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Just theoretically, if you knew I bought that yellow '65 Riv I have in inventory for, say, $10,000, would selling it for $20,000 (100% profit) be "ridiculous?" Selling it at a price of $35,000 should be downright criminal, right? Purchase price and selling price are unrelated and the buyer is the sole arbiter of what constitutes the "right" price. Would you be this pissed off if you didn't know how much he paid for the car? Would you be pissed off if this was a Chevelle instead of a Riviera about which you know a great deal? Maybe you're just too close to see the whole picture.

 

Please tell me, what's a "fair" profit? How much profit is "permissible" by enthusiasts for a dealer to make on a car? Should I be limited to 10% or 20% profit on a car no matter how much I paid for it, as in my example above? Who are you to decide how much someone else should make in their business? Do you even know the mark-ups on, say, furniture or electronics or clothes? If this is too much, you'd shiat yourself if you saw the mark-up in most retail industries.

 

Can I ask how much money you make at your jobs? Am I allowed to complain and tell you that it's too much if I don't think what you do justifies your wage?

 

And if someone sees value in that car at that price, you think he's a fool? Really? Maybe the buyer is someone who wants that exact car and has been looking for a long time. Maybe the buyer is someone who understands that buying the best is often cheaper than buying a project and trying to raise it to that level. Maybe the buyer is a guy who thinks these cars are going to become more valuable in the next five years and doesn't want to be outside looking in when it happens. Maybe the buyer doesn't feel like waiting for a cheaper triple black GS to show up because time is finite while money is relatively easy to get and he wants to live his life instead of waiting on the sidelines. Just because YOU don't think it's worth that much doesn't mean the guy who does is a fool. I'd rather over-pay for a good car than over-pay for a piece of crap, even though the piece of crap was a lot cheaper. How do you define value? Simply by a low price? That's a mistake.

 

My point remains that if he gets $80,000 for that Riv, you just got more ammunition to suggest that your car is more valuable (and Hagerty and the other price guides just got another data point to adjust their price guides upwards). One car does not the market set, of course, but I'm completely puzzled by why owners of these cars would be so angry that someone is pulling the prices up on your behalf. There's a '41 Buick Limited limousine for sale right now at $85,000. I've never seen one sell for even half that much publicly. But I don't hate the seller for putting a big number on it or think the buyer who ultimately buys it is a fool. I hope that number becomes more common so my $30,000 Limited becomes more valuable along the way. Am I the crazy one or what?

 

Who cares how much the other guy makes? How can it possibly affect your life? You already have your car, what do you care about the margins on this one? I'm sorry, but "too much profit is ridiculous," and "it's too expensive according to an arbitrary book," aren't logical arguments explaining why people who own these cars are supposed to be upset about one of them bringing big money. Stand back and look at the big picture.

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                    I am not angry, I could care less what it sells for, just making an observation of it's actual worth in the real world.

Just stating my opinion having been involved in this hobby for four decades.

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Matt, you seem overly triggered.

 

Certainly you raise some good points, yet claiming that people are being hateful is a bit overboard. I don't think people are as angry and you claim they are.

 

Personally I, and many others, consider Rivieras to be undervalued. Boatails are on the rise for sure. 

 

The "mock" I put forward of, "Discount Price of just under $80K," was perfectly warranted. Simple, short, and effective without disrespect, because this IS a forum for people to look at potential vehicles to buy. Many here ARE still buying Riviera certainly. Hell I would consider buying it if the price was right (and factory  black). If someone would make an offer on the vehicle, I would tell them to offer much lower as advice. It is simply common sense that a car that JUST sold for $47K at auction may not turn around the next day and sell for $80K, however it is not unheard of. This vehicle almost hits the unicorn level they claim it to be in, except its not a factory black car (I don't think anyway). Plus the tires and condition. SoOoooOoo, really at this current state it is a $50K vehicle. Which IS high obviously for a 73 Buick Riviera. There is nothing wrong with pointing that out or bringing it up on this forum. Withholding comments like, "looser crooks!" and the like seems like a good plan. Sure, lets wish him all the best in selling for beyond top dollar, unless of course they are selling it to me!

 

The Barrette-Jackson price? Who knows...I would not be surprised to see it go for beyond top dollar at the right event with multiple bidders. 

 

Its simple. The cars just not worth $80K at this time. The future to near future? Could be! It is a sweet ride...

 

Speaking of which, how rare is this vehicle. How many had the sun roof. Is this more rare than a 1966 179 count factory MZ or less rare? 

 

"Make a great discussion on you Riviera investment"

 

https://www.youtube.com/embed/jsc-QzlfuL0?autoplay=1&html5=1&rel=0

 

 

 

 

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Frankly I think the guy wants to keep it for himself anyway.

 

He may swell put a $100K price tag on it just for fun!

 

Plus really 100K is a drop in the bucket for some rich person if this is the one for them...

Edited by Chimera (see edit history)

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19 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

I've seen this phenomenon before and I can't explain it. If he gets his price, that's another valid data point that suggests YOUR cars are getting more valuable, too. Why would you mock him for that? You should be cheering and hoping he gets it. This isn't taking anything away from you or removing all the Rivieras from the market. Were any of you the ones who sent me the angry E-mails when I sold that stunning turquoise '65 seven years ago for $35,000, telling me I was crazy and a fool and that it was way too much for a Riviera? How much is a car like that worth today? Things change and sometimes you can be too close to see it. I wish I had $100 every time an "expert" told me my price was too high. I could send my kids to college.

 

I watch the auctions and when I see a car come on the block that's similar to one I have for sale, I don't hope that it sells cheap--I want it to sell for the biggest number possible! How is this situation any different? Does your dealer hate outweigh your own self interest? Why?

 

This also happened to me when I was the first to sell a six-figure 1948 Dodge Power Wagon. Power Wagon fans laughed, they sent hate mail saying I was a crook and an idiot, and all those guys were absolutely convinced that their old Power Wagons were worth $7500 and they liked it that way. They are now selling them for $80,000--and getting it. Who looks like a fool now? Do you mock your neighbor when he sells his house for $250,000 more than you paid for yours or are you happy that it's another comp that can be used to bolster the case that yours has become more valuable when it comes time to sell? Perspective matters--look at this as a market adjustment in your favor.

 

Seriously, be smart about this. This is only good for you, not bad. I know dealer hate is a favorite pastime, but this should be good news if you own one of these cars.

You bring up a good point Matt.  As you know, the turquoise mist car that you reference was once owned by me.  The consignment dealer where I sold the car through back in 2010 received a number of negative emails regarding the asking price.  It sold then for $33K which I believe was a high watermark for a 65 non-GS Riviera at the time.  It was a turnkey car.  At the end of the day we all love a bargain and sometimes they do come along.  There will always be some vehicles that are overpriced but that is true for many other marketable assets.  But the upside to current owners is that the market will compare comps just like real estate transactions as you point out and prices will adjust accordingly.  Maybe not to the level of the subject 73 GS, but in general terms though.

Edited by Pat Curran
update content (see edit history)

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"Nuthin changes but the date"

horse-trading.png

 

When I was in High School our business teacher, Tom Burns, told us the difference between discretionary and non-discretionary purchases. I lost all interest in sports that day, 'cept one, that I still enjoy.

 

Bernie

 

 

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Has anyone seen the video of this car on youtube?  I lost count on the things done wrong during the redo ( this car was not restored ). The entire under side is the  same black except for the exhaust. No flat or semi gloss difference, the steering components are also black except for the steering gear ( silver? really? )   The radio doesn't work, there is a small split in the drivers armrest. The GS emblems are red, not gold. The nose "R" is missing, The sunroof option required a vinyl roof if I remember correctly ( he keeps calling it an Moonroof AUGH!!! ). It has triple stripe redlines. There are other things as well. If you a cool with buying a slightly customized car, Okay. But if someone is looking for something authentic, you will be very disappointed.

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8 hours ago, rivgs said:

Has anyone seen the video of this car on youtube?  I lost count on the things done wrong during the redo ( this car was not restored ). The entire under side is the  same black except for the exhaust. No flat or semi gloss difference, the steering components are also black except for the steering gear ( silver? really? )   The radio doesn't work, there is a small split in the drivers armrest. The GS emblems are red, not gold. The nose "R" is missing, The sunroof option required a vinyl roof if I remember correctly ( he keeps calling it an Moonroof AUGH!!! ). It has triple stripe redlines. There are other things as well. If you a cool with buying a slightly customized car, Okay. But if someone is looking for something authentic, you will be very disappointed.

That's why it's only 80 thousand! If it were really a nice restoration it would be listed at 120 K! Seriously, I had not looked at the

video.......if it is as you say it is nowhere near a no.1 car therefore true value is more like 18K to 20K. There was a guy who opened

up a classic car dealership in a neighboring town to mine who would buy total beater and I mean BEATER GTO,s, Corvettes, and

Mustangs and list them for sale on the internet for 60-80 thousand dollars. He actually sold a few of them to people who didn't

know any better. One lady who knew nothing about the car hobby but who had just inherited 250 K from her Uncle paid 68,000

 for a GTO convertible that was slightly better than a parts car. One of her relatives who knew something about cars threatened

to kill the car lot owner if he didn't refund her money and the police had to be called. This guy was only in business for about a year

and  he closed the place down. People like that guy make my blood boil! Just because you are silver tongued devil enough to

sell a car for 4 times it's worth doesn't make it OK . I get cars in my shop that people bought on the internet and got ripped off

for 10's of thousands of dollars, and there is real heartache involved. I've seen the tears firsthand and it isn't pretty.

 

Edited by Seafoam65 (see edit history)

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2 hours ago, Seafoam65 said:

That's why it's only 80 thousand! If it were really a nice restoration it would be listed at 120 K! Seriously, I had not looked at the

video.......if it is as you say it is nowhere near a no.1 car therefore true value is more like 18K to 20K. There was a guy who opened

up a classic car dealership in a neighboring town to mine who would buy total beater and I mean BEATER GTO,s, Corvettes, and

Mustangs and list them for sale on the internet for 60-80 thousand dollars. He actually sold a few of them to people who didn't

know any better. One lady who knew nothing about the car hobby but who had just inherited 250 K from her Uncle paid 68,000

 for a GTO convertible that was slightly better than a parts car. One of her relatives who knew something about cars threatened

to kill the car lot owner if he didn't refund her money and the police had to be called. This guy was only in business for about a year

and  he closed the place down. People like that guy make my blood boil! Just because you are silver tongued devil enough to

sell a car for 4 times it's worth doesn't make it OK . I get cars in my shop that people bought on the internet and got ripped off

for 10's of thousands of dollars, and there is real heartache involved. I've seen the tears firsthand and it isn't pretty.

 

Yes I watched the video, like everyone else I lost count on the incorrect items. I don't believe it was a frame off resto, just someone getting carried away with black paint, even the gas tank is painted black. I got so tired of listening to the overhype that  I quit watching it. This guy sure knows how to spin it. He should be a politician.

 

Bob Bonto

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Apologies if I seemed too aggressive. I just get frustrated with the levels of dealer hate I find on this board. There are people here who have said they would never buy one of my cars simply because I'm a dealer, no matter what the car, the price, or how badly they wanted it, just because I don't "deserve" to make money from "their" hobby. There are people here who have said unkind things about me and my family because I'm a dealer ("How can you possibly raise decent, honest kids being in the business you're in?"). There are more than a few who have implied that I am the reason cars are too expensive for them (because without me, you could still buy a Model A from the farmer up the road for $25). There are many who say I am "destroying" their hobby--it's my hobby too. I rely on it to make a living, don't you think I cherish it at least as much as you do? It hurts because I've been a part of this hobby for 45 years, at least as long as some of you and longer than many of you. I am a hobbyist first and foremost, which you can see in the cars I own, the work I do on them, and the information I share for free, not for profit. Melanie and I work EXTREMELY hard to be honest and forthright with the cars we sell, and we never forget that people do this for fun. If I had to choose between selling a car and making some money and not selling a car but avoiding an unhappy car owner, I would choose the latter every single time. I'm sure as hell not getting rich doing this but at least I can look myself in the mirror and know that I'm not ripping people off. Go ahead and Google my name--you will find not one complaint (and the internet is where all the whiners inevitably end up).

 

I know not all dealers are like this (there's certainly a reason car dealers have the reputation they do), but we work very hard to not be like the other dealers. I can't vouch for all of them, but I suspect most are like me--trying to do the best they can with imperfect machines and customers with unreasonably high expectations. I think very few dishonest people go into this business intending to bilk people and take advantage of suckers, but now that I've been doing this for a number of years, I have also come to suspect that it is the clientele that drives the weaker-willed dealers to that kind of behavior because a lot of buyers are unreasonable and the urge is to simply say, "Screw these a-holes, they deserve what they get." Buyer expectations are often very unrealistic, standards are sometimes impossibly high, and most old cars are bound to have deficiencies, even if it's just a small oil leak or some rust on a driveshaft. Balancing expectations and reality is not only difficult, but incredibly frustrating, particularly if you're a dealer--everyone feels pretty comfortable reaching into my pocket because they expect that I will make imperfect things perfect. Imperfection is the default state of old cars. I promise that none of you can afford perfection, myself included. Stop expecting it.

 

Mostly I was trying to point out that you guys should be rooting for the guy to sell that car for a giant number. Regardless of your feelings about dealers and how much they're entitled to earn, if you own one of these cars, you should be this guy's biggest cheerleaders. Screw what you think you know about values--it's fluid and just because you're a hobbyist who specializes in these cars, that doesn't make you an expert on selling or pricing them. Like I said, most experts are just too close and don't see the trends until they're already well on their way--I find that the "experts" are often the last to see market forces changing. You have only historical models ("They've always been worth that much") but fail to see the influence on the market that non-experts have and changing trends. It's also an insular community made up of guys who already own and know the cars intimately, so there's an echo chamber that only reinforces outdated information, which is why you're always shocked when a car brings an abnormally big price. You're certainly not alone there--the '55-57 Chevy guys sure didn't see the fall coming but it's kicking their asses right this moment, just as it did the 2-seat T-Bird owners. The hobby is moving on, and it's moving on to cars like '60 and '70s Rivieras and prices are going to go up, like it or not. Change happens. Most collector car buyers are non-experts; they like what they like and while many do some basic homework, there are also plenty of guys who still understand buying with their hearts. Isn't that what the hobby is all about? 

 

That's my only point. Those of you with 1971-73 Rivieras should be hoping that this guy gets a MASSIVE score with this car. You shouldn't be picking it apart to make yourself seem more knowledgeable and the dealer less so (we can't possibly know as much as you about your particular favorite car, so give us a break, eh? All we can do is know a little about a lot of different cars). You should be excited that it's out there with a giant number on it so the market can get accustomed to seeing big numbers on these cars. How awful would you feel if all dealers just started wholesaling these cars at half their value--and your car became LESS valuable because of it? You'd be pretty unhappy, right? So why the grumbling when it's going the other way and working in your favor? Just because the dealer might make a ton of money? Who cares? 

 

With sincere apologies, you probably don't know as much as you think you do when it comes to pricing and selling collector cars. Being in the hobby for years and reading Hemmings every month isn't enough. It's a lot different than you think it is. I thought I knew a lot from being involved in the hobby for decades until I started doing this for a living. Turns out, I didn't know squat. That's why it's a mistake to dismiss me (and this other dealer) as fools who don't know what they're doing. That car's gonna sell, and it will be closer to his number than the price guide number. Change is happening, like it or not (you should really like it, by the way). 

 

That's all I'm saying. Sorry I riled everyone up. Please continue enjoying your cars.

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Matt, I wish you were closer. I know I would have bought a few cars from you if you were. I get a good feeling about you from how you describe what you post here. Your prices seem reasonable too. Maybe we'll do business in the future if you don't get too frustrated and leave the hobby.

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I really have not seen much "dealer hate," here personally. Somewhat of a straw man, or maybe paper tiger? Certainly it is in the minority. People DO thinking poorly of used car salesman persona that is of the untrustworthy nature. Of course as always it remains important to both contribute and consider other viewpoints for us to gain a wholistic understanding of said issues. I just took the used car dealer class and am thinking about opening a Classic Car dealership. Its not just about sharing knowledge to seem smart, its about looking out for RoA members for me personally; Tastefully.

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