Quick Steering Ratio Box

[Chimera]

Ok I made a time machine and found a unicorn in the Rivi-laboratory.

 

Maybe that’s a stretch, yet I did test a saginaw steering box poportedly out of an early run 66 GS Riviera. 3.25 lock to lock. Tested the ratio and kept coming up with about 24 for one rotation and about 77 for the full 3.25 rotations. The box has a date code of year 5 and 091 for day, so the 91st day of 65 (or 75???). But it seems to match literature for 66 quick steering that states 3.25 lock to lock with 15:1 ratio, right? Still skeptical about factory origin, yet interesting.

 

 

Edited April 20, 2018 by Chimera (see edit history)

[KongaMan]

Forget the lock-to-lock; use the observed ratio.  (3.25 * 360) / 77 = 15.2.  Close enough.  As a sanity check (to make sure that isn't a variable-ratio replacement from a contemporary Caddy or some such), pull the pitman shaft cover and check to see if the 3 gear teeth on the shaft are the same length (fixed ratio) or if the center tooth is longer (variable ratio).

[Chimera]

Yeah, thats the math I did; also got about 24 on the one rotation so 360/24 = 15.

 

OK, will check for the variable ratio.

 

 

 

[telriv]

A very EASY way to tell is go back to my post #19.

[Chimera]

Looks like non-variable (even).

[KongaMan]

Looks like a score.  Wanna sell it?  

[Chimera]

Ha! But still the mystery about the date code. 091 5

[1965rivgs]

 Yes, the date is suspect. This is quite a few months in advance of `66 production. Also, I have a quick box in a `65 which is a LATER date than this box. I suppose it is possible both `65 and `66 boxes were being produced simultaneously but the spread between the date of your box and even the earliest of `66 production is very large compared to the time frame between component build and car build which I have observed repeatedly over the years.

  I dont trust the specs in the factory literature. According to the `65 Buick shop manual the # of turns of the steering wheel lock to lock, with the steering gear installed in the car, should be 3.4 turns. My observations have consistently been 3.875 turns. If the standard ratio is 17.5 to 1 and the qr box is 15 to 1, then the quick box should result in about 0.857 X 3.875 = 3.32 turns lock to lock. Although this is consistent with the  stated 3.25 in the `66 literature (both `65 and `66 qr boxes are supposedly 15 to 1) NO WAY is this accurate for the `65 cars. Over the years I have consistently found the `65 qr boxes to produce LESS than 3 turns or approximately 2.875 turns lock to lock. I get the same results with steering gear connected or on the bench. Maybe I dont know how to count turns of the steering wheel but it`s pretty hard to mistake less than 3 turns for more than 3 turns.

  I have always questioned the `66 literature which states 3.25 turns because both `65 and `66 lit describes the qr boxes as 15 to 1. Based on my experience with the `65 models I expected the `66 cars to exhibit similarly. Maybe the  `65 qr boxes are faster than 15 to 1 and the mistake is in the `65 literature??

Tom

PS If I have time I`ll isolate and degree the `65 box

Edited April 21, 2018 by 1965rivgs (see edit history)

[KongaMan]

9 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

 Yes, the date is suspect. This is quite a few months in advance of `66 production. Also, I have a quick box in a `65 which is a LATER date than this box. I suppose it is possible both `65 and `66 boxes were being produced simultaneously but the spread between the date of your box and even the earliest of `66 production is very large compared to the time frame between component build and car build which I have observed repeatedly over the years.

 

That would seem to be predicated on the assumption that there's a difference between the 65 box and the 66 box.  Is there?  If they're the same, I find it entirely plausible that a component sat around for a few months before being used, even as newer, identical parts were being installed.

 

9 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

  I dont trust the specs in the factory literature. According to the `65 Buick shop manual the # of turns of the steering wheel lock to lock, with the steering gear installed in the car, should be 3.4 turns. My observations have consistently been 3.875 turns. If the standard ratio is 17.5 to 1 and the qr box is 15 to 1, then the quick box should result in about 0.857 X 3.875 = 3.32 turns lock to lock. Although this is consistent with the  stated 3.25 in the `66 literature (both `65 and `66 qr boxes are supposedly 15 to 1) NO WAY is this accurate for the `65 cars. Over the years I have consistently found the `65 qr boxes to produce LESS than 3 turns or approximately 2.875 turns lock to lock. I get the same results with steering gear connected or on the bench. Maybe I dont know how to count turns of the steering wheel but it`s pretty hard to mistake less than 3 turns for more than 3 turns.

 

The 66 FSM says that the steering wheel is 3.5 turns.  I don't see anything in there re the QR box, save a mention that it has a 15:1 ratio.  There could well be other literature that offers additional specs.

 

Note that this purported 66 box seems to have 77° of rotation with 3.25 turns, while the standard box with a 65 date code that I just measured has 70° with 3.4 turns.  (3.25 * 360) / 77 = 15.2.  (3.4 * 360) / 70 = 17.5.  A couple of degrees here and there makes a big difference in the ratio, and should demonstrate why a simple lock-to-lock test may not be determinative.

 

Finally,  it's important to differentiate between measurements made with the gear installed and measurements made with the gear on the bench.  A gear that goes 3.25 turns on the bench might only go 3 turns on the car due to restrictions from the other components.  I have no idea how a box that turns 3.4 on the bench can turn 3.5 or more in the car.

[Chimera]

This is out of the 66 Buick Sellers Manual and the 66 Chassis Service Manual.I know this could be incorrect compared to what was produced, I just want to get some of the data together. 

 

Standard number of wheel turns says 3.79 (over-all ratio quoted in selling manual 19.4) while quick 3.25 from wheel lock to lock (15:1). The Chassis service manual has standard ratio at 17.5:1 and quick 15:1.

[KongaMan]

One thing to be learned from this: even Buick didn't know what they were selling.   For example, the 66 FSM says the standard gear-only ratio is 17.5:1 with 3½ turns of the steering wheel and a final ratio of 20.5:1.

 

At this point, I'm inclined to believe that the ratios are correct (17.5:1, 15:1, etc.), but the number of turns is either an approximation, a number applicable to a different model that doesn't apply to the Riviera, or a left over data point (the FSM had the same specs all the way back to 63) that wasn't updated with subsequent modifications to the box.

 

I still find it interesting that this 66 QR box has 77° of travel when it seems that the standard box has 70°.  You might also note that in 66 the Riviera used a different pitman arm than the Electra and Wildcat.  In 63-4 the Riviera and all Electras, Le Sabres, and Wildcats with Saginaw linkage used the same pitman arm.  In 65, the Riviera kept that arm, but the Electra and Wildcat used a different one.  And through all of this, some cars had Saginaw linkage and some had Thompson (although it appears all Rivieras used Saginaw).  As such, it wouldn't be surprising if there were variations between years and models and the literature didn't list accurate specs for each.

[1965rivgs]

On 4/22/2018 at 3:35 AM, Chimera said:

This is out of the 66 Buick Sellers Manual and the 66 Chassis Service Manual.I know this could be incorrect compared to what was produced, I just want to get some of the data together. 

 

Standard number of wheel turns says 3.79 (over-all ratio quoted in selling manual 19.4) while quick 3.25 from wheel lock to lock (15:1). The Chassis service manual has standard ratio at 17.5:1 and quick 15:1.

Hi Gabe,

As I have stated both in PM`s and on this thread the factory lit is not to be trusted. Even in the same model year there are inconsistencies and this is a good example. The `66 Salesman`s manual states overall ratio 19.5 to 1 and 3.79 turns (this is correct in my field experience) but the shop manual states a ratio of 20.5 to 1 and 3 .5 turns. It cant be both. In addition, the `66 qr box is stated to be 15 to 1. The bench check of your box and the math, if one assumes the Salesman`s manual is correct, and I believe it is, indicates this should result in 3.25 turns. You are finding same on the box in question. So the Salesman`s manual, both in text and demonstrated via the math and bench testing, seems to be a more reliable source as compared to the shop manual.

The solution given the poor specs in the factory literature must be actual field inspection of the cars. Given a large body of data, as I have accumulated over 4 decades, mostly re the `65 cars and less re the `66 cars, one can see trends develop and cut through the contradictions in the factory lit.

Again, if the `65 lit also states the `65 qr box is the 15 to 1, the same ratio as the `66 qr box, and the standard box field checks at 3.875 turns, then the `65 qr box should produce the same 3.25 turns...but that is DEFINITELY not the case in my experience. The `65 qr box is FASTER at 2.875 turns. And AGAIN, these are both bench tested and field tested producing the same # of turns,  ELIMINATING THE STEERING GEAR. In contradiction to the stated specs in the lit, I have found the boxes to perform the same # of turns lock to lock both installed and on the bench.

Is it possible the stated 15 to 1 for the `65 qr box is in error? As we have seen the lit is not to be trusted, so yes.

Is it possible the stops are machined into the case differently from from `65 to `66? I highly doubt it as the standard boxes `65 to `66 demonstrate to same # of turns at 3.875. I doubt they would have specifically machined the qr box differently because that would cause the rack to have a shorter path, and assuming the mesh between rack and sector gears are the same, limit the rotation of the output shaft causing limited turning radius. Of course, pitman arms are the same in both applications

The answer seems to be the ratio in the `65 qr box. It is faster as compared to the `66 qr box. As stated, when I have time, I will actually measure degrees of rotation for the `65 qr box.

Also, something should be mentioned about the lack of concrete chronological evidence when evaluating these steering boxes. Much like other component rebuilding, it is possible for a rebuilder to dissassemble multiple boxes, evaluate the individual components, and reassemble "rebuilt" boxes with a mix and match of components which dont mimic the original units. Think carburetors...

The stamped date codes, in as much as they are a good indicator, can also be open for interpretation. Are we looking at a box which is dated 1965 or 1975? My understanding is that the date code stamps look the same for both years. So unless one interprets the date code associated with other evidence, as in knowing the car from which the steering gear was removed, it becomes difficult to trust the origin of the box.

Speaking of date codes, anything is "possible", but it has been my consistent observation, after evaluating several dozens cars in the field over the last 4 decades, that the date code of steering gear manufacture and car manufacture is between 2 and 5 weeks. Your box is late third month of `65 (if we trust the date code is `65 and not `75!) and the first of the `66 cars would be late August, so about a 5 month spread between gearbox date and potential car date. That is approximately 20 weeks or more difference. Is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? No, not according to the bulk data which I have observed.

Good thread...as I related to you in our personal messages thanks for contacting me re this issue. It has been fun to revisit,

Tom

[KongaMan]

1 hour ago, 1965rivgs said:

Is it possible the stops are machined into the case differently from from `65 to `66? I highly doubt it as the standard boxes `65 to `66 demonstrate to same # of turns at 3.875. I doubt they would have specifically machined the qr box differently because that would cause the rack to have a shorter path, and assuming the mesh between rack and sector gears are the same, limit the rotation of the output shaft causing limited turning radius.

 

As a point of clarification, the boxes wouldn't need to be machined differently.  Rather, the stop is a snap ring which is installed in the case.  Which means that the thickness (or absence) of a snap ring is all that's need to adjust the travel using a common case.

 

1 hour ago, 1965rivgs said:

The answer seems to be the ratio in the `65 qr box. It is faster as compared to the `66 qr box.

 

The 65 and 66 QR boxes use the same worm, rack, and pitman shaft, which would seem to indicate that they have the same ratio.

 

2 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

Again, if the `65 lit also states the `65 qr box is the 15 to 1, the same ratio as the `66 qr box, and the standard box field checks at 3.875 turns, then the `65 qr box should produce the same 3.25 turns...but that is DEFINITELY not the case in my experience. The `65 qr box is FASTER at 2.875 turns. And AGAIN, these are both bench tested and field tested producing the same # of turns,  ELIMINATING THE STEERING GEAR.

 

The 64 Riviera, 65 Riviera, and 66 Riviera use three different cases.  The difference between the three could be nothing more than the thickness of the snap ring -- which would affect the number of turns without affecting the ratio.  Again, the number of turns is independent of the ratio.

[1965rivgs]

4 hours ago, KongaMan said:

 

As a point of clarification, the boxes wouldn't need to be machined differently.  Rather, the stop is a snap ring which is installed in the case.  Which means that the thickness (or absence) of a snap ring is all that's need to adjust the travel using a common case.

 

 

The 65 and 66 QR boxes use the same worm, rack, and pitman shaft, which would seem to indicate that they have the same ratio.

 

 

The 64 Riviera, 65 Riviera, and 66 Riviera use three different cases.  The difference between the three could be nothing more than the thickness of the snap ring -- which would affect the number of turns without affecting the ratio.  Again, the number of turns is independent of the ratio.

Dont need clarification as I fully realize one of the stops is dictated by the snap ring. I havnt had one of these cases apart in years and dont recall but generally snap rings index into a groove. If the position of the snap ring or its thickness was variable that would require different machining of the case. I also highly doubt the snap ring is absent. The shop manual, granted to be taken with a grain of salt, specifically calls out the full size car`s steering gears as having the snap ring as a stop.

I also realize the parts book calls out the same part numbers for the components in the qr boxes and believe I stated that in this thread, but we have demonstrated Buick`s lit is not to be taken for fact so I`m cautious about basing reasoning on it.

I also realize the part numbers of each of the cases is different. But unless we know why, we may as well be throwing darts. GM part numbers can change for MANY, MANY reasons which have nothing to do with the actual part or the way it functions. And this commonly occuring fact simply adds more doubt as to the reliability of reasoning based on the literature.

My reference to turns is more targeted at drawing conclusions about single year boxes as the cases and the potential variables involving the cases are highly likely to be the same in any given year. In such a scenario counting the number of turns is absolutely legitimate and PRACTICAL as a tool to evaluate a potential purchase or to detect the presence of the option. Or would we ask a seller if it is OK to remove the steering gear and break out a degree wheel? Dont think that would go over too well

 

[1965rivgs]

On 4/22/2018 at 3:35 AM, Chimera said:

This is out of the 66 Buick Sellers Manual and the 66 Chassis Service Manual.I know this could be incorrect compared to what was produced, I just want to get some of the data together. 

 

Standard number of wheel turns says 3.79 (over-all ratio quoted in selling manual 19.4) while quick 3.25 from wheel lock to lock (15:1). The Chassis service manual has standard ratio at 17.5:1 and quick 15:1.

Gabe,

  Also meant to mention a very common misunderstanding about the Gran Sport cars...the quick steering option was NOT part of the Gran Sport option in the `65, `66 Riv or the `66 Wildcat. The 15 to 1 option is clearly a seperate box to be checked on the wholesale car order form for each model and it is consistent with my experience when evaluating the cars in the field. I have also been a `66 Wcat fan for years and have had the opportunity to check quite a few of these cars. It is more unusual to find the 15 to 1 box in these cars as compared to the `65 Riv GS as I have stated in my PM`s to you.

If you have any more input or questions and I can help feel free to send me a PM, its been fun, thanks again for resurrecting this subject. When I evaluate the `65 qr box I`ll send a PM

Tom

[KongaMan]

2 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

My reference to turns is more targeted at drawing conclusions about single year boxes as the cases and the potential variables involving the cases are highly likely to be the same in any given year. In such a scenario counting the number of turns is absolutely legitimate and PRACTICAL as a tool to evaluate a potential purchase or to detect the presence of the option.

 

Well...  I've got a box on the bench with a date code (057 5) consistent with the representation that it's from a 65 Riviera.  3.4 turns.  Since it's neither less than 3 nor 3.875 turns, what does the practical tool tell us about the ratio?

 

2 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

Or would we ask a seller if it is OK to remove the steering gear and break out a degree wheel? Dont think that would go over too well

 

If one is looking for just the gear rather than the whole car (which is what we're talking about here), he might be happy if you take it off for him.  And if the box is still on the car, removing the gear may well be the more expedient (if still onerous) solution.  There aren't too many cars in junkyards where you can turn the wheel lock-to-lock.  

 

BTW, if the 15:1 QR box is 2.875 turns and the 17.5:1 standard box is 3.875 turns, then the turning arcs of the two boxes are substantially different.  The standard box would have an arc of almost 80°, while the QR box would have an arc of 69°.  That would seem to imply that a car with the standard box has a significantly smaller turning radius -- or that car is limited by something other than the internal stops in the gear box. Is that the case?  Can one make a U-turn with a standard box while being forced into a 3-point turn with a QR box?  If the two boxes have the same arc (the rack travels the same distance), then observed lock-to-lock on the two boxes should be much closer.  Example: for a 70° arc, the standard box would be 3.4 turns (where have we seen that before? ) while the QR box would be 2.9. 

Edited April 24, 2018 by KongaMan (see edit history)

[Turbinator]

On 4/2/2018 at 9:17 PM, telriv said:

ANY '71-'76 full size car box is a model #808. They ALL interchange.

 

On 4/9/2018 at 8:49 PM, EmTee said:

 Same number of turns lock-to-lock?  No issue fitting your pitman arm or rag joint?

Here's what NAPA says:  https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/PNB391033  It's the same P/N listed for the '73 Electra 225 and Riviera.

Just checked and it's the same P/N for my '67 Riviera, so I wonder what this box really is ratio-wise...

I’ve been studying rebuild sites to learn what the rebuilder has to offer w/re: to the steering feel. Steer & Gear says they can customize your steering box for stock, modern, sport  feel to your requirements. I’m a little in the dark, trying for more specific information for my wants. My steering box is leaking more than I can tolerate.

Red Riviera Bob

[RivNut]

Bob, as my Riviera started aging after a number of years of daily driver use, my box leaked fluid as well.  I learned that if, when I parked, that if I were to make sure the wheels were straight and the bar on the steering wheel was perfectly horizontal, the box wouldn't leak. It didn't seem to leak as long as the pump was circulating fluid.  Not a fix, but it saved me from cleaning up a mess on the garage floor.

[KongaMan]

5 hours ago, Red Riviera Bob said:

 

I’ve been studying rebuild sites to learn what the rebuilder has to offer w/re: to the steering feel. Steer & Gear says they can customize your steering box for stock, modern, sport  feel to your requirements. I’m a little in the dark, trying for more specific information for my wants. My steering box is leaking more than I can tolerate.

Red Riviera Bob

 

There's a torsion bar inside the stub shaft. This torsion bar controls the "feel".  If you want stiffer steering, use a thicker bar.  Because the bar is integrated into the stub shaft (which, in turn, is part of the spool valve), this usually entails replacing the entire valve assembly.

 

If you just want to fix a leak, you can buy various kits which include anything from only specific seals for a particular shaft to complete rebuild kits that include all seals, rings, and bearings.  If you have the original box, there's little sense in replacing only the seal(s) than are now leaking, as you almost certainly have other seals and rings which should be replaced.  A standard rebuild that you pay for is little more than installing a kit for you and making the adjustments (all of this is described in great detail in the shop manual).  If you want to change the behavior of the box itself (different ratio, different feel, etc.), that involves swapping parts (worm and rack, pitman shaft, and/or valve assembly).  There will almost certainly be an additional charge for these parts.  It can get expensive: Lee's charges $650 to rebuild and upgrade a box, plus they keep the old parts (which they value at $300+).

 

Most of the rebuild sites seem to cater to the Camaro crowd, and the majority of their experience is with the smaller 600 box used on the lighter cars.  As such, they're often not as familiar with the options available (or, more likely, not available) for the larger 808 box.

 

IMHO, the path of greatest benefit with least resistance is to buy an unmolested, used 16-13:1 variable ratio box and rebuild it.  If you want a true quick ratio box, do your homework (e.g. check both the input and output turns) before laying out your money, as there is a dearth of authoritative information available.

[Turbinator]

I asked Tom Telesco to source a replacement steering box for my 63 Riv. I am completely lost on the specifications and benefits. I told Tom I wanted to tighten up the feel in the steering. Tom sent a rebuilt 808 that went right in with no adapters. The steering feel along with the new Bilstein shocks are a measurable improvement. Still, I know I’m driving a 63 Buick Riviera.

RRB

[RockinRiviDad]

5 hours ago, Red Riviera Bob said:

Tom sent a rebuilt 808 that went right in with no adapters. 

 

If u don’t mind telling us, how much did he charge?

[Turbinator]

I’m pretty sure I paid $450.00  plus freight. Tom, went over the specs, but I forgot the particulars. I know I counted 2.5 turns from Center to lock for each side.

I hope this answer is complete for you.

RRB

[telriv]

That would end up being 5 turns. It IS 2.5 turns lock-lock.

[Turbinator]

Ok, I’m in now. I understand lock to lock ( one side of the car to the other side.

drives real good

[telriv]

To EVERYONE,

 

  I have had these boxes built for me with MY SPECS.  They are 2.5 turns lock-lock as mentioned by Bob. They VASTLY improve the feel & driving pleasure of your Riv. or any other full size GM car also to include some Jeep, Ford & Mopar products. They come with a 1yr. (from date of purchase) no mileage limit warranty within that 1yr.  As of now they are $450.00 plus shipping & a core of $100.00. 

  This is a WHOLE LOT less costly than the other alternatives out there ranging from anywhere between $650.00-$850.00 + $200.00-$300.00 core charge that you usually DON'T get back because your NOT returning a fast ratio box. By the time you end up with close to or just over 1K.

  There are a BOLT-IN as stated by Bob with NO MODIFICATION nec.  They are a GREAT alternative for your leaky stock box.  MOST shops should be able to remove & install the box in less than 2hrs.   I have found a way to ship them in a large flat rate box from USPS for less than $20.00. You need to line the flat rate box with a piece of panel board or 1/4" Luan & spray some expandable foam to hold the board in place & add rigidity to the box & add packing as nec. THIS IS IMPORTANT as the box is NOT strong enough to hold a 30pd parcel of oddball cast iron. The company WILL NOT DROP SHIP TO ANOTHER ADDRESS. They cost me $38.00 to ship to myself. $20.00 to ship to yourself & $20.00 to me to ship back for a total of $528.00.

   I have three boxes in stock NOW with more on the way.  If you are looking to improve the feel, the driving pleasure & fun factor of driving your Riv. or ANY OTHER full size car (even over the faster ratio Gs box option) these boxes are the way to go just for the added enjoyment & driving pleasure.

 

Tom T.

 

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by telriv (see edit history)

[NC1968Riviera]

Tom, do these steering boxes fit 68 Rivieras? 

[telriv]

YES Mike

[Turbinator]

On 4/7/2018 at 3:09 PM, telriv said:

Just recently I did a newer box swap on a '63 Riv. '71-'76 are ALL 808 model boxes & are a faster ratio & a BOLT-IN. No adapters needed or otherwise. I've done so MANY of these I don't remember how many I've done. I've lost count.

TelRiv had my Saginaw 808 rebuilt and I have no clue the steering ratio number, nor do I care. 

The rebuilt box has improved the steering on my 63 quite a bit. The improvement with the new steering box makes steering a pleasure and no longer the a continual correction task. The replacement shocks and replacement neoprene rubber bushings on the sway bar and track bar have helped as well with better steering. Oh, front end alignment too has helped.

 

RRB

[Clay50]

This is a note to telriv (TomT).

The system won't let me direct PM you because it says I don't have enough points, or something like that, to direct PM a member.

I have a 1965 Riviera GS that needs a steering box, so I would like to buy one of your units. My email is cburruss50@gmail.com, or phone 607-227-2384.

 

Thank you,

Clay Burruss