Quick Steering Ratio Box

[Chimera]

Im looking for an original factory quick steering ratio box from a 66 and 68 Buick Riviera.

 

Also, if anyone has a Riviera with factory quick steering (of those years or similar), please PM or comment here, because I am curious about specs and markings. 

 

Thank you for any leads.

 

Gabriel

[lrlforfun]

OK Gabe: Many guys from the older Buick forums have sent their existing boxed out for a rebuild and the builder can actually change the ratio.  Mitch

[telriv]

ANY '71-'76 full size car box is a model #808. They ALL interchange.

[Chimera]

Thanks for the intel.

 

I would also need to get the specifications of the 66 & 68 factory quick steering in order to have a box changed to ratio. Thats why I am asking for people who might have this option from factory to comment is desired.

 

Thank you,

Gabriel

Edited April 3, 2018 by Chimera (see edit history)

[Chimera]

Quick check.

 

Does anyone have a 68 GS? And if so, does it have front power disc breaks option or the 15:1 (about 2.8 lock to lock) quick steering ratio factory option. 

 

Thank you for your time, checking, and efforts.

 

Gabriel

[KongaMan]

The specifics about these gear boxes seem to be hidden behind a veil of protective secrecy and stewed in a vat of misinformation.  Some guys say they have rebuilt their gears, but they offer no specifics about where they got the parts to do so.  Some commercial shops say they can give you almost any ratio you want (including some that Saginaw never made), but they don't tell you how they do that.  There may be a source for the new internals (rack piston, sector shaft, etc.) needed to change the ratio, but it's not common knowledge if there is.

 

In general: the factory QR box was 15:1 (normal was 17.5:1).  The contemporary Cadillac had a variable ratio 16-13:1 box that's a drop-in replacement.  There are smaller 600-series boxes that are drop-in replacements with quicker ratios (e.g. 1969 SS396), but it's up to you if you think the smaller box with work with the behemoth of a Riv (some say it can and does).  Some smaller boxes that will otherwise fit have internal stops which restrict travel and increase your turning radius.  Both the Cadillac box and the 600 box are available over the counter from any parts store.  At different points in the 70s both the spline on the stub shaft and the thread on the fluid ports changed, which necessitate a new rag joint and/or hoses/adapters if you want to use one of those boxes (they've got the ratio you want and they bolt right in, but you need to solve the connection incompatibilities).

 

I've come to the conclusion that that the best thing to do is find a factory QR box, rebuild it, and run with that.  Otherwise, you're either paying someone out the wazoo to convert your old box, beating your head against the wall trying to get the information and parts needed to do it yourself, or kludging up new connections.

Edited April 7, 2018 by KongaMan (see edit history)

[CTX-SLPR]

I had mine done by Lee Manufacturing to both quicken the ratio (2.5 turns) and stiffen the steering feel up.  I’m not sure if he’s doing them anymore but a search of a pro-touring board should tell you who is in the business of doing things like this.  I’m quite happy with my Lee and so are others on the pro-touring boards.

 

I’d strongly suggest getting your original box redone vs. a different box.  While there are stops on the control arms that contact the spindles (or steering arms), I like the fact that the guts are setup for the car but the spool valve and the ratios can be change to quicken up the steering.

[KongaMan]

One other thing: ratio and turns aren't the same thing.  You'll hear guys talking about a 3-turn box or whatever, but that doesn't tell you what the ratio is.  It's true that fewer turns lock-to-lock generally means a quicker ratio, but it's even more true that the exact ratio can only be determined by comparing the rotation of the two shafts, as not all shafts rotate through the same arc.  So, if you're paying someone an arm and a leg to modify your box, make sure that both the degree of travel and the ratio are specified.

 

You might also want to look at the big picture here: if you're paying someone to modify your box and you want both tighter feel and quicker ratio, you are replacing almost all the internals.  In that case, one might argue that it makes more sense to have a donor box converted.  If you have your current box modified, you end up with one working box.  If you modify a donor box, you end up with two working boxes for the minimal extra cost of a used box.

 

The last quote I got from Lee's was $330 for a straight rebuild, $200 more to change the ratio (new piston and rack), and another $95 to change the spool valve (stiffer feel).  It adds up.   OTOH, you can get a used 16-13 VR box for $50 and drop a $35 kit in it.  FWIW, Lee's actually recommended a VR rebuild for these cars rather than the full-on QR conversion.

[RivNut]

10 minutes ago, KongaMan said:

One other thing: ratio and turns aren't the same thing.  You'll hear guys talking about a 3-turn box or whatever, but that doesn't tell you what the ratio is.  

Kind of like the old Kleener combine I drove on the farm.  The steering components were so bad that it was probably five complete turns lock to lock, but that would only move the wheels about 2°.  A real joy to keep in a straight line, especially when you had it on the road headed back to the barn.

[Chimera]

Good insights.

 

I also want to zero in on if some of these years even offered quick steering. Such as in 68. 

 

But it it would take finding a 68 (or whatever year) to also have a known history (build sheet, order form) along with the 15:1 ratio.

[telriv]

Just recently I did a newer box swap on a '63 Riv. '71-'76 are ALL 808 model boxes & are a faster ratio & a BOLT-IN. No adapters needed or otherwise. I've done so MANY of these I don't remember how many I've done. I've lost count.

[KongaMan]

That's interesting, because a lot of sources say the mid 70s Buicks use the same box as the early 60s Buick.  That is, if you look in the Cardone catalog, the 75 Le Sabre with a 455 uses the same box as a 64 Riviera (part # 27-6529).  The 350 calls for a different box, but who knows what either of these spec out at.  One might suspect that they're using the "If it fits, it's right" philosophy, and they either don't know or don't care about the differences between the two applications.

 

It looks like if you want to know what you're putting in, check it yourself before you install.  Otherwise, you're at the mercy of ignorance and/or apathy.

[1965rivgs]

1 hour ago, telriv said:

Just recently I did a newer box swap on a '63 Riv. '71-'76 are ALL 808 model boxes & are a faster ratio & a BOLT-IN. No adapters needed or otherwise. I've done so MANY of these I don't remember how many I've done. I've lost count.

Hi Tom,

  So this must be a variable ratio box? About 3.25 turns, lock to lock?

  Tom

[KongaMan]

57 minutes ago, 1965rivgs said:

Hi Tom,

  So this must be a variable ratio box? About 3.25 turns, lock to lock?

  Tom

 

That's interesting.  I've got a box here that was represented as a QR box.  Find out it's 3.25 turns lock-to-lock with about 68° of travel.  By my calculations, that's ~17:1.  It's sure not a QR box, but it's hard to see how it could be a 16-13 VR box, either.

[telriv]

Tom,

 

  On the '63 I used a box from a '73 Electra. It was a little less than 2.8 turns lock-lock. I built my own for my '64 & have about 2.4 turns using various parts from '72-'76 boxes & using my original externals.

  NO I will NOT build any for anyone as the time it takes is just not feasible to me.

[KongaMan]

On 4/7/2018 at 5:11 PM, telriv said:

I built my own for my '64 & have about 2.4 turns using various parts from '72-'76 boxes & using my original externals.

 

With the  normal travel of ~68° on the output shaft, that works out to a 12.7:1 ratio.

 

Can you tell us which specific boxes you used for the donor parts and which parts came from which box?  Can you tell us which 72-76 800 boxes had a 12.7:1 ratio?

[JZRIV]

Interesting thread. I have never personally had a quick ratio on my 67 GSs or verified through another 67 owner a quick ratio box installed on a 67 GS. I had a 67 GS with disc brake option. Doesn't mean they (quick ratios) didn't exist.

It seemed like I was chasing a ghost and finally gave up. I wanted to put one on the 67 GS but first wanted to know for a fact they were offered despite the documentation indicating so.

 

I am assuming the early quick ratio boxes such as on the 65 GS were a straight ratio (not variable like 69 and up)???? 

 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2018 by JZRIV (see edit history)

[1965rivgs]

2 hours ago, JZRIV said:

Interesting thread. I have never personally had a quick ratio on my 67 GSs or verified through another 67 owner a quick ratio box installed on a 67 GS. I had a 67 GS with disc brake option. Doesn't mean they (quick ratios) didn't exist.

It seemed like I was chasing a ghost and finally gave up. I wanted to put one on the 67 GS but first wanted to know for a fact they were offered despite the documentation indicating so.

 

I am assuming the early quick ratio boxes such as on the 65 GS were a straight ratio (not variable like 69 and up)???? 

 

 

 

Correct

  Tom

[telriv]

It's '71-'76 & the model number is 808, not 800. When you go to the salvage yard turn the input. If it turns 3 or very slightly less or more it's the faster ratio. Installed In the car it will be less than 3.

[KongaMan]

4 hours ago, JZRIV said:

Interesting thread. I have never personally had a quick ratio on my 67 GSs or verified through another 67 owner a quick ratio box installed on a 67 GS. I had a 67 GS with disc brake option. Doesn't mean they (quick ratios) didn't exist.

It seemed like I was chasing a ghost and finally gave up. I wanted to put one on the 67 GS but first wanted to know for a fact they were offered despite the documentation indicating so.

FWIW, the 66 service manual says QR box was also available in the Wildcat.

 

Which brings up an interesting caveat: Some suppliers list the same replacement box for the 64 Riviera, the 66 Wildcat, and the 71 Electra.  Those cars originally used 3 different boxes.  If you buy a new box at your local jobber, you might be well advised to verify what you got before you install it -- because you might have the wrong box.

[KongaMan]

2 hours ago, telriv said:

It's '71-'76 & the model number is 808, not 800. When you go to the salvage yard turn the input. If it turns 3 or very slightly less or more it's the faster ratio. Installed In the car it will be less than 3.

I'm confused.  According to the shop manual, the 71-76 boxes are variable ratio with slightly less than 3 turns lock-to-lock when installed.  How do you build a 2.4 turn box from those internals?

 

And yes, the model number is 808 -- but folks speak of the 800-series boxes in a general sense to differentiate them from the smaller 600-series boxes. 

[65VerdeGS]

About 15 years ago the original QS box went out on my '65 GS.  Instead of rebuilding it, I simply swapped in a 808 box from a 73 Electra I got from a junkyard for $60.   It bolted right in, and worked as well as the original.  Still working fine today.  I kept the original QR box thinking I'd restore it someday, but I don't see any urgency to do so.

 

[EmTee]

3 hours ago, 65VerdeGS said:

It bolted right in, and worked as well as the original.

 Same number of turns lock-to-lock?  No issue fitting your pitman arm or rag joint?

Here's what NAPA says:  https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/PNB391033  It's the same P/N listed for the '73 Electra 225 and Riviera.

Just checked and it's the same P/N for my '67 Riviera, so I wonder what this box really is ratio-wise...

Edited April 10, 2018 by EmTee (see edit history)

[RivNut]

Makes one wonder if the jobber's are putting all of the steering boxes that have the same external dimensions into one bin.   Could be  two or three different steering boxes under the same jobber's part number. ??????

 

Just for grins, I got into the RockAuto website and looked for steering boxes for a 76 Electra.  They had nine listings.  Seven separate listings from Lares.  Some references to quick ratio boxes, and some that were advertised as rebuilding your unit.  Perhaps Dan could chime in on this if he's monitoring this forum.

Edited April 10, 2018 by RivNut (see edit history)

[KongaMan]

52 minutes ago, EmTee said:

 Same number of turns lock-to-lock?  No issue fitting your pitman arm or rag joint?

Here's what NAPA says:  https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/PNB391033  It's the same P/N listed for the '73 Electra 225 and Riviera.

Just checked and it's the same P/N for my '67 Riviera, so I wonder what this box really is ratio-wise...

 

Just about any pre-'77 808 box should be a drop-in replacement (same rag joint, same pitman shaft, same hose fittings).  However, a good number of them won't be what you had from the factory (i.e. different ratio and/or travel).  One might guess that the former concern trumps the latter; there's no telling what you'll get until you get it.  Order three of the same thing, you're liable to end up with three different boxes.  Maybe that's the key: keep ordering them until you get what you're looking for.

 

58 minutes ago, RivNut said:

Just for grins, I got into the RockAuto website and looked for steering boxes for a 76 Electra.  They had nine listings.  Seven separate listings from Lares.  Some references to quick ratio boxes, and some that were advertised as rebuilding your unit.  Perhaps Dan could chime in on this if he's monitoring this forum.

 

When I talked with Lares some time ago, they told me that the 969 was an 808 box, and that the ratio in an 808 box could not be changed, as it was set with shims to somewhere between 14:1 and 16:1. 

[Chimera]

Got a 68 factory steering box that can't be tested at the wheel because the steering column is gone, but the box turns lock to lock around 3 turns. might that be quick steering (out of 68 GS)?

[KongaMan]

Is the box in or out of the car?

[Chimera]

See picture for best description, hehe.

[KongaMan]

1. Compare the rotation of the input shaft to that of the output shaft.  Example:  Stub shaft rotates 3 turns.  That's 1080°.  The pitman shaft rotates 70°.  1080/70=15.4.  There's your ratio.

2. Remove the sector shaft cover.  Hold the adjusting screw with a 7/32" allen wrench and remove the nut.  Remove the 4 bolts holding the cover.  Spin the cover off and look at the 3 teeth on the pitman shaft.  If they're all the same length, it's constant ratio as determined in step 1.  If the middle tooth is longer, it's variable ratio and step one is an approximation.

 

There should be a date code stamped in the rectangular flat on the pitman shaft cover, something like 8 123.  First digit is the year (1968), 3 digits are the day (123rd day of the year).  This is a good clue as to whether the box is original or a replacement.

 

If it's an original box, it's likely 17.5:1.  There some chance it's 15:1. (Was that offered in 68?  Was it standard on the GS in 68?  I dunno.)  If it's variable ratio it would be a replacement, as (IIRC) that wasn't offered on Buick until 71.

[Chimera]

Yeah it is an original 68 box. the literature says they had 15:1 as added on the GS package (extra option), but don't know anyone who has a quick ratio from factory documented. 

[1965rivgs]

3 hours ago, KongaMan said:

1. Compare the rotation of the input shaft to that of the output shaft.  Example:  Stub shaft rotates 3 turns.  That's 1080°.  The pitman shaft rotates 70°.  1080/70=15.4.  There's your ratio.

2. Remove the sector shaft cover.  Hold the adjusting screw with a 7/32" allen wrench and remove the nut.  Remove the 4 bolts holding the cover.  Spin the cover off and look at the 3 teeth on the pitman shaft.  If they're all the same length, it's constant ratio as determined in step 1.  If the middle tooth is longer, it's variable ratio and step one is an approximation.

 

There should be a date code stamped in the rectangular flat on the pitman shaft cover, something like 8 123.  First digit is the year (1968), 3 digits are the day (123rd day of the year).  This is a good clue as to whether the box is original or a replacement.

 

If it's an original box, it's likely 17.5:1.  There some chance it's 15:1. (Was that offered in 68?  Was it standard on the GS in 68?  I dunno.)  If it's variable ratio it would be a replacement, as (IIRC) that wasn't offered on Buick until 71.

Variable ratio was standard equipment on the 1969 Riviera.

  Tom Mooney

[1965rivgs]

1 hour ago, Chimera said:

Yeah it is an original 68 box. the literature says they had 15:1 as added on the GS package (extra option), but don't know anyone who has a quick ratio from factory documented. 

  Did some more research since you and I last communicated. According to the Buick literature the 1969 Riviera variable ratio box results in less than 3 turns lock to lock. The earlier (non-variable) quick ratio 15 to 1 box also is just short of 3 turns lock to lock. However, the advantage of the variable ratio box is that the ratio is slowest in most typical steering wheel positions (nice ratio in this position, roughly 16 to 1, in between the standard box at 17.5 to 1 and the 15 to 1QR box ) which provides more precise steering control in most driving circumstances when it is desireable, such as navigating a medium curve/maintaining a position in the lane,  and less precise control but quicker response when desireable such as backing and parking maneuvers.

  From my experience this advantage is pronounced. I have both an original QR box in one `65 and a variable ratio box in a second `65. The original QR box feels "twitchy" when going down the road as one corrects, and likely over-corrects, to keep the center of the lane. The variable box, which reacts more slowly and predictably in the same steering wheel positions, is more forgiving and just feels easier and more pleasant/comfortable to drive.

  Just my 2 cents...

  Tom

[telriv]

Tom,

 

  The non variable ratio box probably has the adjustment 1/8th.-1/4 turn too tight if it over corrects to keep the center of the road.

[1965rivgs]

Hi Tom,

  The over correcting is driver input because the box is "fast" compared to what is typical. After driving the car on a regular basis it was no longer an issue but whenever I go back to the car for a cruise I`m back on the learning curve.

  Tom

[Chimera]

Thank you for all the information. Yeah, I would guess the variable ratio is an upgrade. 

 

So if this box I posted is about 3 turns lock to lock, then if the pitman shaft goes about 72 degrees, that would be 15:1? Im trying to nail down if this a quick steering or if this option was actually put into 68 Riviera (it is in the literature).

 

Thanks!

[JZRIV]

That would be correct but I am curious how will you accurately measure degrees of rotation?

[KongaMan]

5 hours ago, JZRIV said:

That would be correct but I am curious how will you accurately measure degrees of rotation?

 

Wrap a thin piece of tape around the case where the pitman shaft comes out.  Turn the shaft to one extreme.  Find an identifiable point or make a mark on the pitman shaft.  Mark that point on the tape on both inner and outer layers.  Turn the shaft to the other extreme.  Mark that point on the tape.  Remove the tape, lay it out flat, and compare the two distances.  Multiply that ratio by 360 to get the degrees of rotation.

[Chimera]

Dude I need a youtube video for this, hehe...

[EmTee]

Maybe one of these...?

 

[Chimera]

Thanks for speaking slow guys. Helps me!