MarkV Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 So, I took the Seville to a shop today that has been in business since the 50's they got the old dodge up and running, etc., they took the Seville apart and drumroll....... Camshaft lobe on Cylinder #2 is worn down! He wont do the work there but gave me the information of two places who would. So what kind of part should I be buying and looking for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retiredmechanic74 Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, MarkV said: So, I took the Seville to a shop today that has been in business since the 50's they got the old dodge up and running, etc., they took the Seville apart and drumroll....... Camshaft lobe on Cylinder #2 is worn down! He wont do the work there but gave me the information of two places who would. So what kind of part should I be buying and looking for? A stock cam and a set of lifters along with a gasket set. Over the years I have gotten cams and lifters from Auto Zone and O' Reilys and never had a problem. You may want to replace the timing chain and gears while your at it. Edited March 26, 2018 by retiredmechanic74 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 Why would that happen? Severely worn down at a low mileage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkV Posted March 26, 2018 Author Share Posted March 26, 2018 I have no idea, looks like someone else opened it up before. I have the records to the car and the mileage is true, maybe somebody shoved another engine in there at some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retiredmechanic74 Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 6 minutes ago, MarkV said: I have no idea, looks like someone else opened it up before. I have the records to the car and the mileage is true, maybe somebody shoved another engine in there at some time. As I commented in a prior post, those years G.M. used contaminated metal and your engine must have received a soft cam and hardened lifters like the Chevy's did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intimeold Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 a ha, The verdict is in. Cams DO go bad in an Olds engine. But of course I know that, because we had a few in the shop. Probably from poor lubrication, oil not changed routinely, but who knows now. We can only speculate now. Remember several of us clearly stated, "take the valve cover off, and check the valve operation" and go from there. About he easiest way to eliminate the valve train as a problem. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkV Posted March 26, 2018 Author Share Posted March 26, 2018 So, estimate is $950 for cam, lifters and gaskets and labor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkV Posted March 26, 2018 Author Share Posted March 26, 2018 9 minutes ago, intimeold said: a ha, The verdict is in. Cams DO go bad in an Olds engine. But of course I know that, because we had a few in the shop. Probably from poor lubrication, oil not changed routinely, but who knows now. We can only speculate now. Remember several of us clearly stated, "take the valve cover off, and check the valve operation" and go from there. About he easiest way to eliminate the valve train as a problem. Yes I do remember, but I would not even know what to look for, also a bunch of stuff had to come off the top, it took him most of the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 1 hour ago, retiredmechanic74 said: As I commented in a prior post, those years G.M. used contaminated metal and your engine must have received a soft cam and hardened lifters like the Chevy's did. Not true. It was / is a lubrication issue along with a possible contamination of the oil with coolant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkV Posted March 27, 2018 Author Share Posted March 27, 2018 (edited) The car had regular oil changes at least for the last 10 years of the oil change records (10k miles or so). The oil is still clean in the engine having been changed about 2500 miles ago and about 3 years. Compression on all cylinders was normal believe it or not! Edited March 27, 2018 by MarkV (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 Awesome! It's always a relief to find out the answer to a vexing problem like this. You should post this answer in your original thread so the people watching that thread can see that you've found a solution. It's always helpful to some future answer-seeker to find all the details in one thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intimeold Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, MarkV said: Yes I do remember, but I would not even know what to look for, also a bunch of stuff had to come off the top, it took him most of the day. Yes Sir, I know. But, I for one would have walked you through it, over the phone. We would take one wire, hose, bracket at a time. Seriously, we could have done it, with your help, over the phone. Then once the covers were off, a closer look, by a trained eye, may have been needed. And yes it does take some time getting all the gunk away from the covers, to lift them off. intimeold Edited March 27, 2018 by intimeold (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJFord54 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 Is there a prize to the winners? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 In the early 70s Chev V8s had terrible camshaft wear. Parts stores kept cam kits stacked on the shelf by the dozens. When you took out the cam and looked at it the metal was all pitted as if it was made of compressed tinfoil or case hardened fudge. Never heard of Olds or Cadillac motors suffering that way but anything is possible. Cams and lifters put a lot of load per square inch on a small surface, that is why they used to put zinc in the oil, to prevent wear. Now they don't bother because all cars have overhead cams and roller lifters. Maybe it was cheap oil that led to the problem but, usually it is not a problem after the engine is broken in. Still and all, cam wear does happen. If one lifter gets stuck and doesn't turn it will wear rapidly. Or if the cam got scratched by a stray piece of grit or maybe had a flaw from the factory. It's just one of those things, and not all that rare on pushrod V8s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramair Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 MarkV, glad you found the problem, to me a cord struck home with shop that found the issue, I can not help but think why would your shop tear it all apart to find the problem with no intention of fixing it. Now you either put it all back together (labor) or you have to tow and possible store till you can get it in another shop. Sounds like our medical industry that has so many specialist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted sweet Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 is anyone worried on wear that much metal went and did before the oil filter trapped it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJFord54 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 5 hours ago, ted sweet said: is anyone worried on wear that much metal went and did before the oil filter trapped it? Ted - Look at your post count. You hit a magic number! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retiredmechanic74 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 12 hours ago, Larry Schramm said: Not true. It was / is a lubrication issue along with a possible contamination of the oil with coolant. I agree that we disagree and that's all I'm going to say about it. The main thing is the problem was found and now it going to get fixed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkV Posted March 27, 2018 Author Share Posted March 27, 2018 10 hours ago, ramair said: MarkV, glad you found the problem, to me a cord struck home with shop that found the issue, I can not help but think why would your shop tear it all apart to find the problem with no intention of fixing it. Now you either put it all back together (labor) or you have to tow and possible store till you can get it in another shop. Sounds like our medical industry that has so many specialist. Well, the issue is they would have been able to fix just about everything with the car. These guys are in their 80's and were/are great mechanics, but, they no longer do the complete rebuilding like they used to (probably due to age). So, I dont blame them, I am happy they had the expertise (which is rare in s. ca), they would have been able to fix almost anything else with the car it just happens that this is a more major issue. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 15 of the lobes survived OK, pretty good odds. Just fix what is broken. Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkV Posted March 27, 2018 Author Share Posted March 27, 2018 So camshaft and lifters, I forgot to mention that the compression was about 145 on each cylinder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 When you get your new cam and lifters in there be sure and use a zinc additive or oil with lots of zinc in it. Especially during break in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 (edited) ANYTHING can have a flat cam. Checking for this problem is just taking the valve covers off. GM may have put some annoying stuff in the way, but no matter how you cut it, it isn't that deep. If the shop does not do heavy work, I am not surprised they didn't take it on. Fixing this problem in some cars requires taking the engine out, but probably not on this car. To actually fix it, the valve covers (again), the intake manifold and anything in the way will have to come off the top of the engine. and then.... The camshaft is as long as the engine, and it will need to come that same distance forward to come out. I would plan on removing the radiator, the a/c condenser (suck the a/c down first), and possibly the grille. Then, all the accessories on front of the engine need to come off, alternator, a/c condenser, air pump, p/s pump, etc. Some of these can be laid to the side, some will have to come clear off. Then, the harmonic balancer, water pump and timing cover and timing chain need to come off. Then the rocker arms, pushrods, and lifters come out.The cam comes out the front taking great care not to damage the cam bearings. They probably will get damaged a little, but hopefully not too much. If the cam STILL hits the bodywork remove whatever is necessary. If it hits something immovable, you could try disconnecting the transmission mount and tipping the tail of the engine down or up slightly to change the angle. Put in a new cam, lifters, timing chain, gaskets, seals, and reassemble. It is a lot more than valve covers. The top of a cam lobe slopes a little. The bottom of the lifters are not flat, they bulge out slightly. So, the tall corner of the edge of the cam lobe is the only thing that is making contact with the lifter as it goes over the top. The pressure on this tip is enormous, but there is a method to this madness. The action is like what would happen if you stepped on the outer edge of a Lazy Susan. You would go flying. The lifter surface just slips out from underneath, and spins. An added benefit is that the cam will hit a new spot on the lifter next time around. When enough wear occurs, for whatever reason, that the whole width of the cam lobe contacts the lifter, the lifter no longer spins, and things get bad in a hurry. This is not something slowly wearing down over 70,000 miles. 10 to 35 miles is more like it. I can't say for sure without being there, but the repair estimate sounds reasonable to me. Edited March 27, 2018 by Bloo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheezestaak2000 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 i'm sure NOBODY in here will agree with me, but if that worn lifter is "mushroomed", you won't be able to pull it out from the top, meaning that the oil pan would have to come off, or after you remove the other lifters and cam shaft, give it a tap with a punch, and just let it fall to the bottom of the pan. it isn't gonna go anywhere, or block any oil passages, and it will cut the amount of labor on that job in half. i've done it before without anything bad happening, and years later, and many miles later, never was a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junkyardjeff Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 I have gotten lifters out the bottom by putting cardboard in where the cam goes and one at a time drop them down but have a magnet to catch them,that is the way I had to remove the 16 lifters from a 454 in a suburban years ago that supposively only had 5000 miles on a new cam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Carl Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 Speaking of magnets , and extracting spent metal , I think it was Ted Sweet who posed a very real concern above. What indeed would be the concerns regarding the small metal worn off the cam lobe ? Where would it be , where would it have travelled to , etc. ? - CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 18 hours ago, junkyardjeff said: I have gotten lifters out the bottom by putting cardboard in where the cam goes and one at a time drop them down but have a magnet to catch them,that is the way I had to remove the 16 lifters from a 454 in a suburban years ago that supposively only had 5000 miles on a new cam. There is a tool that will pull them out, it works with a slide hammer. Not sure what effect it would have on the bore, but I have used it on mushroomed lifters and reassembled with success. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 The worn off metal is laying in the lifter valley, or in the pan, or has gone thru the oil pump and been caught by the oil filter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junkyardjeff Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 5 hours ago, JACK M said: There is a tool that will pull them out, it works with a slide hammer. Not sure what effect it would have on the bore, but I have used it on mushroomed lifters and reassembled with success. I do not think that tool would have worked on that 454 or might have damaged the bores since they were seriously mushroomed,I am thinking the GM garage that put the first cam in could not get them out and just reused them. All 16 lifters were wore down at least 1/8 and one was almost to the internal spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intimeold Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, JACK M said: There is a tool that will pull them out, it works with a slide hammer. Not sure what effect it would have on the bore, but I have used it on mushroomed lifters and reassembled with success. Yes, Jack M I have that tool, it may be a K-D tool company, or Snap-On The inside expanding jaws slip right in the groove in the lifter; where the snap ring is, that holds the hydraulic lifter together. Normally the lifters come out with a little struggle. But some cases are really serious, with the mushrooming. Back to the lifter puller: The jaws are hardened steel ; but I'm sure they can be broken. I have never broken one of those tools yet; they are very strong. BUT I start out by using good old Vise-Grips and a curved pry-bar on stubborn lifters. The pry-bar will have a curved hook, on one end. Get a good hold on the lifter with the Vise-Grips, and really good vise grips; and try to work the lifter up and down, repeatably. Hook the pry-bar under the Vise-Grips and leverage between the engine block and pry up on the Vise Grips. Hard one take a few try's at this. Just saves beating the jaws all up on the $$$ slide hammer puller; if they are really really tight.. As for the damage to the lifter bore, from the mushroomed lifter; you will just have to asses if any damage was done, to each bore. intimeold Edited March 28, 2018 by intimeold (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intimeold Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 (edited) duplicate Edited March 28, 2018 by intimeold (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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