Reflections at 30: The Future of the Car Hobby

[MarkV]

After reading many posts on here in regards to the future of the car hobby and reading many articles in Hemmings written by people 55+ in regards to people under 40 in the car hobby, I would like to write a bit of what I have seen and experienced over the last 30 years in the hobby as someone who is 30 this year and the target audience! I am what you would call an older millennial. Yes there are two groups of us, the older ones (from 1983-1993 or so)  and the rest (who are the ones typically they are talking about when they say every kid gets a trophy. etc.). When I was growing up we still didnt have a computer in the home and I played outside, played with real toys, there were winners and losers,   and was raised by my mom and dad but also by my grandparents who were born in 1916, 1920 and 1930. My granddad sold Chevrolet for 50 years and he and I worked on the 1921 Chevrolet that I still own, starting when  I was about 4 (he had macular degeneration, so, I was his eyes). I first officially got into the hobby myself at age 12 buying a 66 mustang. which could still be had for under $5k. The parts were cheap and my summer job could pay for them. Even when I rescued the '41 Dodge and had it fixed, prices were reasonable. Now however, its a different story (more on that later).

 

I came of age and graduated from college during the second great depression (2008/2009). All my friends and I who had experience and good reference and an education could not find work with the exception of part time at $10 bucks an hour. But, I marched on worked further on my education. I worked a bunch of odd jobs (US Census, lots of stories there!). I did keep up with the car hobby and thankfully didnt lose any of them through sale, and I worked on my own stuff. Because I am stubborn I then went back to school again and earned my credentials and second Masters.  I was then hired as a Professor at age 26, where I have been ever since in addition to teaching the primary grades. My story is unusual in that most of my friends ended after a B.A. as due to the economic conditions they did not see the value of continuing, nor did they find that niche. As a result they are still barely making it.  So, they are barely making rent, and forget about buying a house anytime soon if ever. Also forget about a car hobby at all due to money, storage, etc. Also many of them have a minimalist attitude and live very spartan lives and collect nothing (there was an article I read recently about how they dont know what do do with their boomer parents stuff and how they are getting rid of old furniture they have had for generations and how the value is dropping, etc.) 

 

Here is why people my age are not in the hobby my observations:

1. Money: They are really broke or are stuck in jobs that dont pay enough to afford any extra spending thanks in part to the after effect of the recession and stagnant economy. Parts and repair prices prices have spiraled out of control thanks to ebay, regulation, etc. 

 

2. The cars: What I am about to say maybe controversial, but, the cars are now too expensive! Its not like back in the day when you could buy a 47 chevy for $30 and fix it up, now even for junk on a trailer they want a few thousand. 

 

3. The cars part 2: The failure of the hobby to catch up with newer antique, classic, (whatever you want to call it) cars from the 70's-90's, these are the cars we grew up with. They are also the most affordable. However, if I were to say that I collected a 1988 Chevrolet Corsica and that it should be considered significant :gasp: and that it is being lovingly restored just like my Mustang :gasp: :gasp: The car hobby is moving on, in fact there is a huge facebook group called Malaise Motors that has a billions posts a day about this era of cars. They are having an upcoming car show, and we will probably take my 86 190D or my 88 Corsica or the 77 Seville. Hemmings classic car just did a 1 page spread on the Corsica!  (By the way, the Corsica is 31 just like the '57 chevy was that everyone was ooing and awing over when I was a kid!). I just kept an old '88 that I have owned 4 times out of the scrap heap. Because they are rare (mine is an early 87 build) in decent shape. The Taurus is also over 30. These are cars we have a sentimental attachment to. The Corsica is because every member of my family had one and I grew up with them. The Seville because my grandparents had one just like it, lots of great memories.  The '57 chevy to my age group might as well be a Hupmobile or a Model T.  

 

4. As far as Pre-War cars those are now way out of reach for my age group even if they had an attachment to them. Prices are up because there are enough very wealthy people who want to buy them. But, you are no longer seeing the average joe with them anymore (like when I was young). 

 

5. Post War '46-'73 (intro to emission standards in 73) many of these cars are out of reach now as well. 

 

6. Grumpiness of some of those in the hobby- Yes this hobby is geared towards the AARP crowd because of disposable income. Many of the folks are very nice and welcoming and excited to see young people in the hobby. However, I have met more than my fair share of really grumpy older people in the hobby. People who have done X for 50 years and thats how we are going to continue to do it (even though logically and business wise it makes no sense, I have seen this in a number of classic car clubs I have been involved with). Or they look at you like you probably stole your classic "well how the he?! can you own that car" I had one guy tell me at a show. I said, quite easily I bought it! 

 

These are just a few reflections, I look forward to your comments! 

 

[victorialynn2]

Thank you for your perspective. We have discussed here how the 70’s and newer cars are starting to become popular due to your age group. (My kids are your age). I recently sold a ‘79 Lincoln Town Car and it got lots of attention. I think you make some valid points in your post. 

 

Although there are quite a few people in my father’s age group here, you will find people of all ages and this group is very welcoming. I have met a lot of very helpful people here as well as at shows. 

 

I have sold a few cars over the last couple of years and was very happy that some went to people in your age range. Welcome and stick around. You will have fun here and I look forward to hearing more of your thoughts on the hobby. 

[TerryB]

My son fits many of the descriptions you raise here.  He was born in 1993.  Good news for him is he was able to get a decent job after graduating from college.  Even with that the expenses of life,housing, car insurance, college loans and the like chew up disposable income pretty quickly.  He is a fan of all old cars, but for him a dream car is a 1980s European auto.   We chat about some of the cars for sale here on the forum but the ones older than the 1970s have little interest except for historical reference.

 

I agree the fate of certain years of autos is in the hands of those with memory of them and the money to pay for those memories.  The cost of the old car hobby can be daunting for those entering for the first time.  The bargains are certainly few and far between.

 

Terry

[MarkV]

6 minutes ago, TerryB said:

My son fits many of the descriptions you raise here.  He was born in 1993.  Good news for him is he was able to get a decent job after graduating from college.  Even with that the expenses of life,housing, car insurance, college loans and the like chew up disposable income pretty quickly.  He is a fan of all old cars, but for him a dream car is a 1980s European auto.   We chat about some of the cars for sale here on the forum but the ones older than the 1970s have little interest except for historical reference.

 

I agree the fate of certain years of autos is in the hands of those with memory of them and the money to pay for those memories.  The cost of the old car hobby can be daunting for those entering for the first time.  The bargains are certainly few and far between.

 

Terry

Yes the economy is a lot different from 2008/2009 now! Glad to hear he is doing well! 

[Lahti35]

#6.... The reason I'm currently adding one more car to my stable and then withdrawing from most antique car activities. I've let my club affiliations lapse and won't be joining more. I'm 38 and tired of the buying/selling games and gnarly coots in the hobby. I've met a lot of nice folks but way too many of the other kind. I'm to the point I don't even want to buy anything at a swap meet... I just use ebay to get around the in person dealings I'm tired of. The general public is great, love chatting with them about cars and such when I'm out and about with one... not so much the actual car crowd themselves anymore. 

[J.H.Boland]

I'll turn 70 this year and my daughter will tell you I'm one of those grumpy old coots . Last year I was elected (railroaded) president of our region of the Historical Automobile Society of Canada (HASC). It is a bit discouraging at our indoor meets to look out over a sea of grey and balding heads,but this year we have an enthusiastic pair of guys running activities and a number of interesting things are developing.We are going to try to reach out to the younger car people, not just to hopefully have someone to relieve us of our treasures when the time comes,but to help them appreciate the history and technological steps that the industry took from the early days.It can be hard for an old coot to show an interest in the '70's and up cars,especially ones of European and Japanese origin.Remember, in my generation, Japanese stuff was mostly found in CrackerJack boxes ! To you millenials,I ask that you try to be patient with us oldsters.Some of us are trying to embrace the new realities and show a friendly and interested face to the next generation(s).

Jim

[Grimy]

MarkV, I sincerely thank you for your well-written perspective, and I agree that at other recession periods underemployment and shortage-of-money have affected even us geezers.  But I am impelled to point out our wage levels when we were buying the decent-running $25-$125 cars:  In college and grad school I was making $1.50 (top wages) for gas station work and a huge (at the time) $2.00/hr on Saturdays at a pre-OSHA chemical packaging plant which would be subject to criminal prosecution today.  And when I returned from Vietnam 50 years ago next month as a first lieutenant no longer on jump or hazardous duty pay, I was making less than $400/month.  Nevertheless, I bought a decent 1939 Cadillac Fleetwood 75 (29 years old and Full Classic per CCCA even then) for a little less than $1,000 and drove it cross country the long way to my next assignment in WashDC.  Gas was under 30 cents per gallon (more expensive than today if inflation is calculated), and a first class postage stamp was SIX CENTS.  A nice one-bedroom apartment in suburban WashDC was $135/month.

[Bob Hill]

I am 58 and have been in the antique car hobby since I was 18 when I worked all summer on a land surveying crew to buy a 1950 Chrysler New Yorker .  I paid $500 for the car (probably equivalent to $1500 today).  I spent every avaialble dime I had to restore that car and even though I had little idea what I was doing, I think it turned out "okay".   There were times I would forego activites with freinds, etc because I wanted to save that money towards restoring that car.  I guess the point I am making is that  if you want something bad enough, you can make it happen.  Granted you may not be able to buy the lastest fad antique car but you can buy something you like and enjoy the hobby. 

 

That early restoration lead me in to several others over time and as I learned more I was able to obtain and restore nicer cars amd become much more involved with the hooby.  At 34,  I was president of our local AACA Region, served as Chief judge at several shows and became an AACA judge.   When I was 35,  I got my first National Award on a 1929 Model A Sport Coupe.   A year later I was co-chair of the AACA Grand National Meet.  In those years, NEVER once was I ever looked down on (to my knowledge) because I wasn't in the AARP group. Maybe I just wasn't observant of it but I never went into anything with the attitude that someone will not like me because of my age.   I think the AACA membership overall doesn't care how old you are or what car you have - we are all in this for the love of the antique car hobby. 

 

 My kids are in the millennial group (daugher is 23 and son is 19) and are both car enthusaists.  They also understand the value of a good education - daughter is an engineer adn son is in engineering school.  My daughter started helping me with judging at local shows when she was 15 - she was welcomed with open arms.   She is, I guess, unusual that at her age, her favorite cars are the early 50's Chevrolets.  My son is typical in that he loves the early imports.  

 

There will always be someone who will criticize your choice of the car you own/restore.  There may be someone who will look down on you for your age, etc but overall I believe the AACA is one of the more welcoming clubs in the antique car hobby.  Since I am now AARP age, I guess some of your original post applies to me but I don't care what car you choose to restore or how old you are.  I may not necessarily like your choice of car, etc. but as long as you are enjoying the hobby, I think it is great.   Enjoy the hobby and forget what the naysayers think or say.

Edited March 26, 2018 by Bob Hill (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Some great observations about younger people and the state of the hobby in general. I see much of what you are saying about younger people and old car in my own Son { just turning 18 this week}.  My Son and most of his friends seem to be less involved with cars of any sort ; and old cars in particular , than was generally the case when I was a teenager {1970's} And yes , any of the cars he shows an interest in, Nissan Sylvia's , Supra's Etc. seem to me to be pretty new cars.  

 A lot of your points however are not really that unique to your generation.

Your point about money is as much a factor ,and perhaps more to someone on my age group .   I will be 60 in June of this year, so my entry in the world of work coincided with a serious recession. In my case it was the early 1980's recession which had a very serious effect on Western Canada's economy. We were a largely resource based economy , and demand for those resources more or less flatlined. Jobs for the younger generation during the 1980's were nearly as hard to find as for your time in the post second great depression.  Eventually in my late 20's , after substantial post secondary training in two different career paths I got my foot in the occupation that I have held up to the present. In the mean time the delay in starting a career effected my entry in the Real Estate market and I ended up paying a substantial price for my home compared to people say 5 years older than myself. I lost a good portion of the income from my first decade as an adult, very similar to the$ problems you identify for todays young people.

  Unfortunately it was not just your generation that were effected by the most recent economic crisis.  In fact for the last 20-25 years many middle class people have seen wages that have not kept up with inflation, the 2007 crash just made things that much worse. The general erosion of purchasing power was however well underway in many middle class households for some time before the crisis. 

 So you can see that for some of us "older" guys the $ have also been an up hill battle.

Point 2, "the cars" I am afraid to say that even for my generation most of the really desirable old cars were already owned by older than us collectors. The ones that were available to us were generally the cast offs and left overs. The interesting cars were already out of reach of my generation's "young enthusiasts" by the late 197's- early 80's. The people of my generation who have the better quality old cars most likely dug deep at the time of purchase. That heavy outlay is reflected in todays market prices.  The bargain prices on desirable old cars were pretty much a thing of the past by the mid 1970's.

  I completely agree with most of your observations.  I just hope your prosperity is only effected by one major event rather than two like many of my generation have endured.

 

Greg in Canada

Edited March 26, 2018 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[TexRiv_63]

MarkV, very good post and I agree with most of your conclusions. I am 69 years old and have been lucky enough to own many great cars over the 55 plus tears I have been in the hobby. Those cars have ranged from 1928 to 1996 and my wish list encompasses a much larger range. A few comments keyed to your bullets:

#1 Money - for a lot of younger people you are correct but I agree with George (Grimy) about the cost relativity. I lived at home until I was 24 and contributed to the support of my parents while still going to school and working full time. I bought my first car in 1966 and earned the money to rebuild it by buying and flipping used cars. I created a modest "Car Account" which was kept separate from all living expenses and have used that model through my entire life - sometimes there was nothing for cars and sometimes I was flush. It took a lot of extra hours to maintain that but it was important enough to me to not give it up.

#2 The Cars - You are totally right about the cost of older collectible cars and both young and old hobbyists agree on that. However I see a great deal of interest in cars from the 70s and 80s that are still reasonable to buy, they may not be the darlings of the marque clubs but look at all the specialty pages on Facebook.

#4 Pre War Cars - Actually they are becoming a bargain if you are talking about basic cars like Model T and Model A Fords. So many of the people who were interested in these are dying out that there is actually a glut on the market and prices are very reasonable as long as you are not going through dealers.

#6 Grumpiness - Very true with some folks but it exists in both young and old. A lot of car groups are like high school cliques - we don't want you unless you do things our way. Unfortunately the major marque clubs lean this way, attacking anyone who modifies their car. The AACA is the most inclusive regarding the age range of accepted cars but they have to be stock. On the other side though, if you join a club with stock resto rules you can't expect them to judge your modified car.

 

  

[MarkV]

I also forgot to mention one other point re:money most of the people my age are in tens of thousands of dollars in student debt if not 100k. As a result they take half of your paycheck monthly! So, it does not leave much for an old car. 

[1912Staver]

33 minutes ago, MarkV said:

I also forgot to mention one other point re:money most of the people my age are in tens of thousands of dollars in student debt if not 100k. As a result they take half of your paycheck monthly! So, it does not leave much for an old car. 

Yes I can relate 100%. By the time I was finished with post secondary education I was about $50,000.00 1989 dollars in the hole, my wife a further $35,000.00. That debt was also a big factor in our youth and our households ability to pay for things like old cars.

Also, young people with debt today at least have low interest rates in their favor. Just imagine $50,000.00 debt with early 1990's rates { around 10%}.

 I am not trying to minimise the challenges the younger generation are facing. I am just trying to point out that challenges are not unique to present times.

 

Greg

Edited March 26, 2018 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[TerryB]

It would be a wonderful outreach at car shows and similar events if we old car people had something to offer to the budding car enthusiast besides just looking at cars.  My knowledge and abilities was due to working on old cars as a necessity rather than a hobby, we had to keep our car on the road.  Today, that's becoming a lost art as many young people barely know how to open the hood or have any desire to learn more about the parts that make the auto operate.

 

Imagine going to a car show where, instead of sitting in a lawn chair behind the car, the owners were engaged with those at the show either at an info booth or some other display item to raise interest in the hobby.  Old equipment shows with tractors or stationary engines always have something happening all the time to draw in your interest.  It gets quite boring for many just looking at a cars sitting on a grassy field. The hobby needs to find a way to help build enthusiasm in what it has to offer, even if it's in the memorabilia aspect like license plate collections, books about auto pioneers, art work or whatever.  My son enjoyed looking for model cars and license plates in the flea market when he went to shows with me.  The flea market experience was the real beginnings of his automotive interest.

 

My favorite old car ambassador was Walter Baran from Frackville PA.  He had a antique Bugatti that he took to shows and was delighted to share its story with the general public.  At a local mall show one time he had folks sit in the car, get their picture taken with it and explain to them all the unique features it had.  He really was good at getting the public informed about antique autos.   We need more ambassadors and more interesting displays to get the word out.  Cars in a grassy field are no longer enough to spread the word.

 

Terry

 

[Larry Schramm]

7 minutes ago, TerryB said:

It would be a wonderful outreach at car shows and similar events if we old car people had something to offer to the budding car enthusiast besides just looking at cars.  My knowledge and abilities was due to working on old cars as a necessity rather than a hobby, we had to keep our car on the road.  Today, that's becoming a lost art as many young people barely know how to open the hood or have any desire to learn more about the parts that make the auto operate.

 

Imagine going to a car show where, instead of sitting in a lawn chair behind the car, the owners were engaged with those at the show either at an info booth or some other display item to raise interest in the hobby.  Old equipment shows with tractors or stationary engines always have something happening all the time to draw in your interest.  It gets quite boring for many just looking at a cars sitting on a grassy field. The hobby needs to find a way to help build enthusiasm in what it has to offer, even if it's in the memorabilia aspect like license plate collections, books about auto pioneers, art work or whatever.  

 

We need more ambassadors and more interesting displays to get the word out.  Cars in a grassy field are no longer enough to spread the word.

 

Terry

 

 

I agree that just sitting around with cars in static display separated by judging categories does not instill interest in the hobby for the masses.  If you are a Buick Club member, read my letter in the current Bugle and vote for me for a Buick Club director if you agree with my comments.  Thanks,

Edited March 26, 2018 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[39BuickEight]

I am “only” 40, but I can also be considered a grumpy old soul.  I believe people are 100% responsible for themselves and, if they want to be in the old car hobby, they can find a way to do so.  If the economy gets a person down, either adjust your job, budget, or both.  If you want a car that’s too expensive, find a cheaper one or make more money.

 

My way of involvement started being raised in it via my father, and buying a rusty prewar car with cash on Craigslist that I knew I couldn’t drive for many years.  I figured there is no better way to learn how to fix a car than by rebuilding one from the ground up.  I paid for it as I went, and when I am done I will have less than $10,000 in a pretty nice car that I tightened every fastener on myself.

 

To me, the reason fewer young people are involved in the “classic” car hobby is because of the throw away society we live in.  People don’t fix washers and dryers anymore, much less cars.  They replace them.  They don’t learn or care to learn, because it’s more difficult.   The overall quality of life is “better” now than it ever has been.  Not having internet access has become a “problem.”   Not having green enough grass is a “problem.”  If a person wanted to afford a classic car, they could start by repairing their own washer and spraying their own weed killer (if at all.). That’s what I do.

 

Every single person I meet loves old cars whether they have one or not.  People think old cars are neat.  The interest is there, until they are sidetracked and distracted by the next text message.

Edited March 26, 2018 by 39BuickEight (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

Well written. 

I'm of the opinion the old car hobby will die a slow death of attrition. As the truly distinctive older models slowly cease to exist or be available  only to a few very well heeled and/or dedicated collectors general interest will dry up to the point of near obscurity. The car collectors of the future will be a subject of human interest stories in the local paper that focus on the nice old but slightly dotty guy that collects  cars. 

What attracts collectors and interested others is the distinctiveness and novelty of certain cars. It's hard for me to imagine the car show of the future where, save for color, all the cars look, and are, more or less the same.

Enjoy it while you can but time marches on.......................Bob

[SC38dls]

Well written and I think it hits the nail on the head in a lot of ways. There are a lot of people that think the old car hobby is shows like pebble beach. I feel it’s more the guy with one car in the garage that is worth $1500 to $20,000. He does his own work has probably never put it in a show as he doesn’t think it looks good enough. He drives it every chance he can with out it getting in the snow or real bad weather. He may go to a cars and coffee and knows a few others like himself. He will buy oil and a new filter before he’ll spend money on lunch or play a round of golf. He does the work and drives it because he gets a sense of accomplishment from it.  In other words he finds a way or at least I have to be in the HOBBY. It is possible for a kid to do it on a small fun scale if they want too. The only real stumbling factor is the debt they may have from school or buying a house they really couldn’t afford. Learn to budget and stay within that budget and they may be able to enjoy this hobby. I hope more kids have the common sense you seem to have. Good luck and have fun. 

Dave S 

 

 

[Xander Wildeisen]

We all know that there are going to be old cars in the future.

 

[poci1957]

6 hours ago, TexRiv_63 said:

MarkV, very good post and I agree with most of your conclusions.

#1 Money - for a lot of younger people you are correct but I agree with George (Grimy) about the cost relativity.

 

#2 The Cars - You are totally right about the cost of older collectible cars and both young and old hobbyists agree on that. However I see a great deal of interest in cars from the 70s and 80s that are still reasonable to buy, they may not be the darlings of the marque clubs but look at all the specialty pages on Facebook.

 

#4 Pre War Cars - Actually they are becoming a bargain if you are talking about basic cars like Model T and Model A Fords. So many of the people who were interested in these are dying out that there is actually a glut on the market and prices are very reasonable as long as you are not going through dealers.

 

#6 Grumpiness -....... A lot of car groups are like high school cliques - we don't want you unless you do things our way. 

The AACA is the most inclusive regarding the age range of accepted cars but they have to be stock.   

 

Hey Mark V excellent comments and good to hear from a 30 something.  I am a senior Gen Xer (just turned 50) active in the hobby since the early 1980s so I have now interacted with 4 generations of hobbyists, WWII generation, baby boomers, Gen X and now millennials.  Many of your comments were applicable when I was coming up in the 1980s and TexRiv covers several of your topics above so well I would just expand on a few of his points:

 

1. MONEY is always an issue and the hobby does work best financially and time-wise for retirees with extra spending money.  Someone working class just starting out will not be able to spend lavishly and never has but it is indeed tougher now.  SC38DLS above makes an excellent point about the participation of the average middle class hobbyist compared to the fancier people at big events and on TV and it really can be more democratic than it looks.

 

2-5. THE CARS are actually more attainable than ever IMO IF you are flexible in what you can enjoy.  I have heard people say that they would only be happy if they can own an "icon" car like, say, a perfect split window Corvette or they prefer not to participate.  Well for most of us that is not going to happen.  BUT if that guy could enjoy a full size sedan he could drive a variety of clean 1970s big cars for $5000-$10,000 or less.  He can't afford to do a full restoration and can't outspend a baby boomer on a 1960s Corvette or musclecar but there are lots of 1970s and 1980s models out there and lots of older restorations coming up for sale for far less than their restoration cost.  You just can't find an icon car on the cheap but that has always been the case.

 

6.  GRUMPINESS is a major problem and has been since I have been around.  For every old guy interested in helping a new young hobbyist there are a dozen sneering with their buddies at anyone who is not in their group and I have always hated that.  All I can say is find that one guy who is generous of spirit and avoid the other dozen, both should be easy to spot.  TexRiv correctly points out that there is still a line in the sand over stock vs. modified but even that has relaxed considerably.  I enjoyed reading your comments and hope you will help to perpetuate the hobby for many years, thanks for writing, Todd C

 

[keithb7]

I’ll be 47 soon. I make a pretty good wage. My wife too.  I won’t complain. I think My wife and I got to where I am because we’re frugal. Not cheap. We like good quality things. I just won’t pay what they are worth. I’ll horse trade or find a way to earn a buck from the lazy folks who don’t want to learn how to change their own tires. (Is there an app for that?) 

 

i own an old car. No, its no Packard or Corvette. A humble 1953 Chrysler 4 door that few wanted. Until they see me driving it. Everyone loves it then. 

 

I do all of my own repairs. I’ll buy new tires or an exhaust system for it in a heartbeat. Yet I’ll buy a used replacement dishwasher if the old one is too far gone to repair myself. I’ll chop wood to save on the heat bill. We do all our own home renos and house maintenance. I was taught to be independent by my parents. I’ll never ask to borrow anything more than once. By time #2, I figure I must need it, so I’ll buy it. Tools? Everything I ever needed to perform my own vehicle repairs and maintenance. 

 

This western world is becoming very, very expensive to live in. A four year degree is the bare minimum it seems, to get by. Taxes, fees, levies, and fines keep going up. Groceries are quite expensive. Don’t get me started on insurance and gas prices. Add to all this property values are going crazy around here. I got in when the going was good. Lucky me. My Sons currently in University? Not sure how they are going to own a house. 

 

Add to all that, the short attention span of the digital age, its little wonder they could care less about owning a vintage car. Sure they like to look at them. They’re neat. Own one? Work on one? Oh my. No. 

 

One time I saw something I wanted, used on local internet classifieds. I contacted the seller. I offered to trade car maintenance or repair services in trade. We agreed to a front brake job. The 20-something guy came over in his little cheap car. I jacked it up and changed his brakes. He stood by bored and distracted by anything but the brake job. I offered to teach him how to change his brake pads. Hands on. To save some money in the future. One on one coaching. No, he said. Not interested. 

 

I got my item in trade. Easy to get what you want when you’re creative.  The kid probably thought the same thing. Lol. 

 

Cars. Some get it. Less than ever it seems to today.  Oh well. You can’t force the new generation to like or understand why a Chrysler Air Flow is so cool.  

Edited March 27, 2018 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

I get the feeling you must live in the same general neck of the woods I do. Prices are indeed very expensive and rising steadily. And as you say Real Estate prices defy logic and realism, particularly in relation to what most people in this region earn.  And I also earn a decent wage, however there has been very little increase in that wage for a substantial time . None the less all the other costs in our area steadily rise, some things rapidly and sharply. 

 Old car budgets are doomed in most households as this trend of cost of living outpacing income continues unabated. I have a feeling the real estate boom is eventually going to bust, and it's going to be ugly.

 

Greg

Edited March 27, 2018 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[keithb7]

You are bang-on @1912Staver I am not too far from you. Exactly the same thing with my wages too. Decent, but stuck there for the past 6 years or so while everything else continues to escalate. Seemingly quickly too.

[hidden_hunter]

I'm the same age as you and own a 22 Cadillac, so that's what my perspective is based on... Melbourne property prices are among the highest in the world now (most suburbs are now US$1m+ for anything with a garage) so that's a huge barrier for entry for those that didn't buy before the boom.

 

Having said that, purchase price of the car is less of an issue compared to parts. There are elements of the community that paid a couple of bucks for parts would rather them sit on a shelf  for 40 years collecting dust than sell them for a reasonable price - I'm not looking for a fantastic deal but your parts aren't gold plated either.... That sort of attitude has two problems: it prevents people from being able to do things; sours people on the community

[1912Staver]

I am sure Melbourne is roughly in the same price range as the Vancouver B.C. area. How does this compare with Australian wages ?  Around here $75,000.00 - $80,000.00 a year is considered a decent income , about $50,000.00 a year take home. Even a very average detached house is a Million +, so it will take every penny of 20 years income just for the house purchase price. Plus mortgage interest, property taxes and everything else. Its easy to see that a lifetime's earning from a somewhat better than average income won't even buy a pretty ordinary house around here.

 Hard for young people to have a hobby anything in a 450 square foot loft apt.

 

Greg

Edited March 27, 2018 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Joe in Canada]

I understand the Pierce Society took a survey on age of the membership and found the majority is over 70. That kind of tells you something on the difficulty's ahead they can encounter to survive.

Another issue also hurts the clubs is cruise nights and local type car shows. Where people can take there cars and not have to pay a membership to belong. With the economy being so tight trying to save a $$ for a home. The middle class folks that are the backbone of the hobby  in a decline makes it more difficult for clubs to survive the future.

The smaller clubs have half the membership than what they had 25 years ago.

[nick8086]

6.  GRUMPINESS is a major problem and has been since I have been around.  For every old guy interested in helping a new young hobbyist there are a dozen sneering with their buddies at anyone who is not in their group and I have always hated that. 

 

I found this out working on my cars..

 

I have no help..

 

Dad had a network - It cost 10.00 to fix stuff..

 

He could find parts..

 

[hidden_hunter]

9 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

I am sure Melbourne is roughly in the same price range as the Vancouver B.C. area. How does this compare with Australian wages ?  Around here $75,000.00 - $80,000.00 a year is considered a decent income , about $50,000.00 a year take home. Even a very average detached house is a Million +, so it will take every penny of 20 years income just for the house purchase price. Plus mortgage interest, property taxes and everything else. Its easy to see that a lifetime's earning from a somewhat better than average income won't even buy a pretty ordinary house around here.

 Hard for young people to have a hobby anything in a 450 square foot loft apt.

 

Greg

 

Average wage in the Melbourne/Sydney is around the $75k-$85k + 9.5% mandatory retirement fund contributions so pretty similar -  our tax rate is pretty similar. Income tax + GST is what makes up the bulk of our taxes. Pretty much every mortgage here is variable interest rate as well so most (smart) people factor in the historic 7.5% average interest rates have been here in the last 30 years (even though its been sitting at 3.99% for a long time) - unsurprising Australian banks are hugely profitable (the 'worst' performing major bank made $8b profit last year) .

 

Long story short, most people can only afford a tiny 1 bedroom apartment  which hurts the hobby a lot. Which is a shame, given our climate is great for protecting cars. 

Edited March 27, 2018 by hidden_hunter (see edit history)

[Xander Wildeisen]

One thing that has really changed over the years is interest in classic/collector cars around the world. This has driven up prices and a lot of cars have been shipped around the world. I look at online sites every day, and there are good buys on cars everywhere. Vintage trucks are all over the place out here, and are some of the best buys, to jump into the classic car/truck scene. Classic/collector cars are not going anywhere, especially on the custom side. As long as there are individual forms of transportation, you will have people who will want to personalize/customize those forms of transportation. That can even be done with restorations when it comes to wheels/tires, paint colors and interiors. The biggest thing a person can do to cut down the cost, is to learn how to do the work yourself. You can really do a lot of things with just basic tools. I bet if a thread was started that focused on a price range, say $8000-12,000 dollars. And people just posted links to cars/trucks for sale in that price range, you would see that there are some good buys out there, and a lot to chose from. A price range of 18,000-25,000 dollars, a person can step into just about every brand of car. It all comes down to a choice, if you are driving a 2011 whatever? that cost you 18-25k to buy. You made a choice to buy that. You can drive an old car every day, they were driven every day when they were new. It is a choice/lifestyle. I doubt you could find someone out here more devoted to classic cars, and trying to point out the problems with in the hobby/industry/trade then me. I have devoted most of my life to the cars, and in a strange way, I have paid a very large price for that. I will always have a vintage car of some kind, driving down the road is just better when you are behind the wheel of a vintage/classic/collector car.

[Roger Frazee]

Thank you MarkV for your original post and for starting this discussion.  This is a great thread.

 

I know that there are many young people today who are involved in various car hobbies.  Granted most are not driving the cars of our youth, but they are driving the cars they grew up around, and they enjoy working on them, customizing them, and driving them -- just like we geezers did back in the fifties, sixties, and seventies.

 

I am a member of the local Volkswagen club.  In fact, I am the oldest member in the club.  The average age in that club is probably around 40.  These young people are enjoying their Volkswagens (both water and air cooled) because their parents drove them and because they can afford them.  Some of the cars in the club are show cars.  Most are not.  Most have generous amounts of patina and are kept running with used parts and a bit of ingenuity, just like the old Chevys and Fords we drove at that age.

 

Young car lovers are out there.  We AACA members just need to go out to the local cruise-ins and find them.  Then we need to talk to them and share our love of automobiles with them.  

 

It's not that kids are not interested in old cars now days.  They are out there if we peel back our preconceived notions and look for them.  The next time you're at a Cars & Coffee, don't just look at the pre-war and post-war classics.  Look at the Nissans, Hondas, and Volkswagens.  Then introduce yourself to the owners.  Let's welcome the next generation of gearheads into our fold.

 

 

[60FlatTop]

It is not just the car hobby. A few hundred years ago they would cut open one of those old farts when they died and claim they back filled with "black bile" and it killed them. Modern science has proven otherwise, but it is still an astute observation.

 

Growing up, old men taught me to despise them. I still don't like them and I am one. I tend to stay away from them.

 

The cars are just a minor part. It is the same in almost every endeavor.

 

Teaching, at any level, is a great profession. It keeps you closely associated with younger people.

 

I taught apprenticeship programs for trade organizations, community colleges, and work force development. There was a wide cross section of ages. One night when it was obvious "that all the little sponges were full", I sat on the edge of the desk and we talked about our goals and why we were there. A mid-forties man said his shop sent him because work was slow and they told him he needed more skills. A few minutes later a young man, about 18, the youngest in the group, said he wanted to travel the country, but, first, wanted a marketable trade so he could find jobs where he went. The older guy, sent by his work, said "I am amazed. I would have never thought a kid like you could think like that." I have heard that same message exchanged hundreds of times, that is the one I remember best.

Bernie

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

17 hours ago, 39BuickEight said:

I am “only” 40, but I can also be considered a grumpy old soul.  I believe people are 100% responsible for themselves and, if they want to be in the old car hobby, they can find a way to do so.  If the economy gets a person down, either adjust your job, budget, or both.  If you want a car that’s too expensive, find a cheaper one or make more money.

 

My way of involvement started being raised in it via my father, and buying a rusty prewar car with cash on Craigslist that I knew I couldn’t drive for many years.  I figured there is no better way to learn how to fix a car than by rebuilding one from the ground up.  I paid for it as I went, and when I am done I will have less than $10,000 in a pretty nice car that I tightened every fastener on myself.

 

To me, the reason fewer young people are involved in the “classic” car hobby is because of the throw away society we live in.  People don’t fix washers and dryers anymore, much less cars.  They replace them.  They don’t learn or care to learn, because it’s more difficult.   The overall quality of life is “better” now than it ever has been.  Not having internet access has become a “problem.”   Not having green enough grass is a “problem.”  If a person wanted to afford a classic car, they could start by repairing their own washer and spraying their own weed killer (if at all.). That’s what I do.

 

Every single person I meet loves old cars whether they have one or not.  People think old cars are neat.  The interest is there, until they are sidetracked and distracted by the next text message.

 

 Well, thank you, Billy!   Priorities. Your second sentence is right on.    Rest of it "ain't " bad.

 

   High school dropout. Raised EIGHT kids. Toured the US and Canada as a truck driver and STILL have an old car.  No complaints with life. And for goodness sake, get over blaming the economy!  That old pendulum is in the great big middle twice as much as either extreme.

 

  Enough for now

 

  Ben

[1912Staver]

4 hours ago, hidden_hunter said:

 

Average wage in the Melbourne/Sydney is around the $75k-$85k + 9.5% mandatory retirement fund contributions so pretty similar -  our tax rate is pretty similar. Income tax + GST is what makes up the bulk of our taxes. Pretty much every mortgage here is variable interest rate as well so most (smart) people factor in the historic 7.5% average interest rates have been here in the last 30 years (even though its been sitting at 3.99% for a long time) - unsurprising Australian banks are hugely profitable (the 'worst' performing major bank made $8b profit last year) .

 

Long story short, most people can only afford a tiny 1 bedroom apartment  which hurts the hobby a lot. Which is a shame, given our climate is great for protecting cars. 

It sounds like you are in a very similar situation to what we are facing in Western Canada.  I used the $75,000.00 figure as an example of a decent wage, the actual statistical average is $55,000.00.  A huge disconnect between average income and average housing cost.

  I suspect  "offshore" money is as big a factor in Australia's market as it is in Canada's

 

Greg in Canada

Edited March 27, 2018 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[JACK M]

I posed this to one of the kids that wants to step up to a $30,000 plus new car with payments.

If you have that kind of credit why not buy a collectable for the same money, Then in six or eight years when its paid for take a look at which one would have retained it value.

When the kids were younger I always put them in old Valliant's or Darts. Cuz dad could at least recognize what is under the hood.

[MarkV]

2 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

 

 Well, thank you, Billy!   Priorities. Your second sentence is right on.    Rest of it "ain't " bad.

 

   High school dropout. Raised EIGHT kids. Toured the US and Canada as a truck driver and STILL have an old car.  No complaints with life. And for goodness sake, get over blaming the economy!  That old pendulum is in the great big middle twice as much as either extreme.

 

  Enough for now

 

  Ben

Ben- Thats great, however you are a different generation. Most jobs now require something (trade school, college, etc.) in addition to High School and as the years roll on almost all jobs will require a post B.A. Degree.  Out the gate many around my age were finished before they started with $50-100k in debt, imagine a day not being able to find any work, because all the old retirees are coming back to the workforce and those close to retirement never left. That was 2008-2014 or so. Imagine them telling you that you are overqualified constantly and being told you need 5 years experience on an entry level job. My parents when they were in their early 20s made much more than I did when  I was in mine. They were in their early 20's during the late 70's. Many do not have their priorities in order,  I know many, but, those of us who did/do still took several years to make anything decent to just survive. So, this was a big hit to the hobby we know and love. 

[MarkV]

28 minutes ago, JACK M said:

I posed this to one of the kids that wants to step up to a $30,000 plus new car with payments.

If you have that kind of credit why not buy a collectable for the same money, Then in six or eight years when its paid for take a look at which one would have retained it value.

When the kids were younger I always put them in old Valliant's or Darts. Cuz dad could at least recognize what is under the hood.

 

That is very true! I have never bought a new car, I have all the antiques but I did recently buy a used Chevy Volt and absolutely love it! 

[MarkV]

Another interesting notion is the cost of insurance..... Haggerty and the rest would not cover me until driving for at least ten years. Even the regular insurance was astronomical. Thankfully for my classics AAA covered me on their classic car insurance when I was 19! And it was cheap too. 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Wes, I am going to play contrarian AGAIN.   Our [my ] generation had the same situation. 

 

  I think what I am trying to say is, nothing has really changed. Just a different day.  It does appear you have a large collection.

 

  BY the way, I have grandkids that graduated with Bachelor degrees, free of debt with companies contacting them.

 

  Ben

[poci1957]

28 minutes ago, MarkV said:

Most jobs now require something (trade school, college, etc.) in addition to High School......Out the gate many around my age were finished before they started with $50-100k in debt, imagine a day not being able to find any work, because all the old retirees are coming back to the workforce and those close to retirement never left. That was 2008-2014 or so......... My parents when they were in their early 20s made much more than I did when  I was in mine.........this was a big hit to the hobby we know and love. 

 

Absolutely correct Mark V, in our area only recently have I seen things open up a little to 20 somethings replacing aging boomers as you said above.  And make no mistake, a responsible person should fund their old car hobby with discretionary income after their regular bills are paid.  So you should only play if you have some of that discretionary income and with student loans, housing and rent and later raising kids that will always hinder younger people.  It is not insurmountable though, you seem to have figured out a way and justified the cost as being worth it, Todd C  

[victorialynn2]

11 hours ago, nick8086 said:

6.  GRUMPINESS is a major problem and has been since I have been around.  For every old guy interested in helping a new young hobbyist there are a dozen sneering with their buddies at anyone who is not in their group and I have always hated that. 

 

I found this out working on my cars..

 

I have no help..

 

Dad had a network - It cost 10.00 to fix stuff..

 

He could find parts..

 

That may have a lot to do with the specific Kaiser’s you have. I would think the smaller, specific cars like that have very limited age appeal?

[MarkV]

39 minutes ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

Wes, I am going to play contrarian AGAIN.   Our [my ] generation had the same situation. 

 

  I think what I am trying to say is, nothing has really changed. Just a different day.  It does appear you have a large collection.

 

  BY the way, I have grandkids that graduated with Bachelor degrees, free of debt with companies contacting them.

 

  Ben

Ben- Thats quite okay! As far as previous generations dealing with this same situation, is this learned behavior passed on? Just kidding! As far as the grandkids today is a very different day than 2007-2014 or so.