Abua Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 Hey everyone I have a 56 olds super 88 that i just purchase that has the 324 in it. had it for a week. was running placed in reverse to to back out of garage turned off car to wash it and couldn't start again. it has slow crank but will not start. had it towed to mechanic #1 changed points rotor condenser. battery coil ...has spark fuel air. claims their was fuel in the oil. thinks the main bearing is bad. $2,000 to fix Mechanic #2 checked all of the above as well he thinks its more of an electrical problem maybe starter is bad. is testing starter further as we speak. the car has an electric fuel pump attached. my question is would the car crank but not start if its a bad crank bearing??? or would it still start but sound like crap??? everything is dry i live in florida so no moisture. pictures attached video of the motor running Thanks for your help IMG_7226.MOV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 Slow cranking has NOTHING to do with the fuel system, or ignition system. Mechanic #1 is a hack. Run, don't walk, away from that clown. If there is fuel in the oil, it likely came from flooding the carb in your ill-fated starting attempts. Mechanic 2 is closer to the truth. It likely is an electrical problem. It MAY be the starter, or it MAY be something else. If this mechanic wants to immediately install a new starter without troubleshooting first, that is the sign of a "parts replacer" not a mechanic. Yeah, he may eventually find the problem by replacing parts (even a blind squirrel eventually finds a nut), but you will be paying for his trial and error efforts. The wiring is obviously hacked by a previous owner as part of that alternator installation. You need to understand exactly what non-stock work was done to the car (and how well or poorly it was done) to properly diagnose this. Few mechanics today will have the skill or patience to do this, sadly. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 I agree run from Mechanic #1. you wouldn't know it had bad bearings without tearing it apart or possibly with really low oil pressure once it]s running and up to temperature/ hot. (hard to tell on a 56 with stock gauges as it only has idiot lights for the temp and Oil) Not sure how they wired it, but I see 2 original wires taped off laying there and the 2 new Alternator wires. loosely run up to the firewall. Looks like a less than professional conversion. I would highly suspect the problem be with the conversions and related wiring. Possibly even the ignition switch, but that will take actual diagnosing, not guessing, to see where you do and don't have power. I have a 56 Olds 88 2 door hardtop that I have had for nearly 20 years and it gets exercised a few times a year. It cranks kind of slow as well, especially when compared to modern vehicles. It's all that compression in that Olds rocket, that it's trying to turn over. In all seriousness if the timing is off it will cause it to not want to crank right as well. I think that's the problem with mine, but never get around to actually checking it, as it always starts and that's with a mechanical 20 something year old fuel pump. Of course a little dash of fuel down the carb after the longer slumbers, helps it light right off. I prefer getting stuff back within OEM specs, rather than re engineering it. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 I just watched the video. That engine sounds fine to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GARY F Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 I agree with Joe. First I would clean all the battery connections sparkling clean. then follow joes recomdations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbking Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 Quote Agree with all above, run from mechanic number 1. Like the fact that mechanic number 2 is TESTING the starter. That might be the cause, but testing rather than guessing is always a good idea. Before proceeding further, see what he/she comes up with. Modifications CAN sometimes be useful, if done well. Might be a good idea to contact previous owner to see if he/she might give you a list of modifications. If you are not doing your own work, and mechanic 2 proves to not solve the issue, you may need mechanic number 3. One way to find a competent local mechanic (if one exists) is to attend old car "cruise-ins", and talk to folks that bring similar cars to the show. One thing true of all old car enthusiasts is they like to talk. Ask these local folks about local talent. Pretty car, looks like lots of enjoyment. Jon. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abua Posted March 19, 2018 Author Share Posted March 19, 2018 Well guys mechanic #2 is leaning towards a bad crank bearing as well. So if that’s the case then I know the parts are cheap how many hours of labor should I be looking at? And how much would that cost usually to get done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 A bad crank bearing is not going to make it start hard or not at all, unless it lost oil pressure and basically seized. You need to see the oil pressure with it running to determine if you have bad bearings. That engine sounded fine to me, although a lower idle would have been nice to hear it better. Otherwise you would have to drop the pan and remove the bearing caps to check the bearings. I'm the furthest thing from a pro at this, but if it "needs a bearing". you usually need to pull the engine and crank and have the whole thing resurfaced, then install all new matched bearings. Did Mechanic #2 know mechanic one said it needed a new bearing? Was it ever mentioned in conversation? Hopefully a real mechanic will chime in to confirm or deny my thoughts. How did it crank when you got it? How did it crank when you tried to start it but it wouldn't start? We need some more info here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abua Posted March 19, 2018 Author Share Posted March 19, 2018 When it was delivered I drove it from the truck drop off to my house. It had a slower start it does have a 12v conversion. I turned it off in front of the house then restarted and it had a weak start. Then it sat in garage for a week. I started it again still slow start pulled it out to wash it then all it did was turn over slow. Fan was turning but slow crank. Mechanic #2 told me that he hears a squeal when trying to turn over on the second and third crank. He did confirm what the other mechanic told me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 These cars are 12 volt from the factory, the only conversion is the Alterantor in place of the generator. That just facilitates charging at idle, where a generator doesn't unless you have the idle really cranked up. Even with gas in the oil from trying to start it, you would have to have a lot for the little running you did, to wash the bearings out and damage them. Did the oil light on the dash come on when it was running? Did it come on when you went to start it, but then go out once it started the first time? I'm still really skeptical of this diagnosis. Squealing bearings??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abua Posted March 19, 2018 Author Share Posted March 19, 2018 Didn’t notice any light the only light that the car has is the generator light is on I guess when the alternator was changed out. I just got the car a month ago and it’s been being diagnosed since I had it. I didn’t even have time to really check it over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 I don't have my car handy in the garage here at the house, but there are indicator lights instead of gauges for the oil pressure, Generator, and two for the temperature. A red one for hot and a green one for cold. When you turn the ignition on but don't try to start the car, they all light up. As soon as it starts, I believe when cold, all go out except the green cold one, and under normal circumstances, the generator (GEN) flickers a bit or may come on, until you rev the engine at all, then it goes out as it starts charging. With the Conversion to an alternator something may be messed up, so it won't go out. If the oil light never came on before starting then you will have no idea if the engine had any real oil pressure. (this is far from fool proof as a mechanical gauge is much more accurate than the lights, but they would give you an idea to start with. ) If when it was running the light went out at idle, then I would be very suspect of a bearing issue. Bad main or crank bearings affect oil pressure and that is the first indication of worn bearings. Again I only play a mechanic on line and not in real life but I have done a few valve jobs and a complete engine rebuild on my 36 Chrysler Convertible, so I'm not quite fresh off the boat, plus I have a 56 olds 88 Hardtop in storage right now that I have driven off an on for the last 20 years. Besides gas in the oil, how much was it overfull? was there any gray matter or a metallic sheen to it? That would be the bearing matter in the oil? How did the oil look in general? These have an accessory full flow Oil filter and the filter could be pulled and checked as well, but not all engines were equipped with them. I would go with Carbking's Suggestion and find out the real Car mechanics in the area to see what they think. What part of Florida are you in? Surprised a guy from FL bought a car from NY. Usually we are always shipping them in from FL to NY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abua Posted March 19, 2018 Author Share Posted March 19, 2018 Oil just looked dark to me when I check the dip stick. Did smell a bit of fuel but not overbearing. Mechanic just said there was fuel in the oil. He dropped pan and filled with oil and marvel mystery to crank it through a bit. Hopefully I will have a better gauge today if it’s electrical or not with the starter. Yes I bought from NY because honestly I could not find anything here in Florida . Maybe I jumped the gun a bit. Really appreciate your input keeping fingers crossed that it’s not a main bearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 The main bearing just sounds off the wall to me. I passed this thread onto my friend who was a field engineer for Cadillac and the mechanical end of a national championship drag racing team. He's really sharp, to get his take on it. If he dropped the pan, he had access to the bearing caps and should have pulled them to show you they were scored or been able to plastigauge them to show you they had excessive wear. Usually you don't drop the pan for an oil change. Maybe he just meant he dropped the oil, which is a common phrase. If he did indeed drop the pan and the bearings were bad, there would be no need to put the pan back on and refill it with oil, regular and mystery oil. (usually mystery oil is used as a super lubricant and is thinner than the oil. It's usually used to free up stuck or sticky parts, and often more in the valve train, the top end of the engine) You would have left it off to show the customer how you came to your conclusion that the bearings were bad. Being it thins the oil some, that would be the last thing to use with bad bearings. You would need to run the engine a lot if it only had a little gas in the oil to damage the bearings. It would need quite a bit to dilute the oil to the point of it damaging the bearings and again that's over time not instantly. The oil would have to feel kind of thin to the touch, especially being cold. The darkish color is fine if it wasn't metallic or gray looking. Probably better than fresh oil as some age to the oil, means it wasn't freshly changed to hide a problem. If you don't have the oil filter on your car, then the oil will be darker than you are used to as the contaminants in the engine are suspended in the oil. The add on filter, filtered those out. Not a bad idea if you get it straightened out to add the filter. The oil is most likely also a non detergent oil. Without knowing how clean the engine is inside (the upper end) you will want to stick with a non detergent as you don't want to free up years of deposits. If the mechanic did have the pan off, he also should have showed you if it was caked up with sludge or clean. Lots of red flags here for me, but then again I only play a mechanic on line. I just want to make sure you are not getting taken for a job that doesn't need to be done. These are good powerful engines that lasted for years with regular care. I don[t think they have any real "known problems as the design was around since 1949 in the 303. Your 324 is the last year of this engine. (only phased out because of the race for more cubic inches and that 303 got pushed to 315 then again to 324 where at that point they just needed a bigger engine to get any more performance in HP race.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abua Posted March 19, 2018 Author Share Posted March 19, 2018 Well I really appreciate your input and for sending the post to your friend. The thing is that both of these mechanics work on classics as well as new cars and they are really good mechanics that have been in the area for years. I would hate to move the car to mechanic #3 LOL this is just so frustrating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbking Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 If turning over slowly, has the battery been recharged? Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abua Posted March 19, 2018 Author Share Posted March 19, 2018 Yes battery was replaced with points rotor cap condenser. Swapped out coil for testing as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 If they changed, charged or checked the battery, they should have cleaned the terminals. If so, I would look at the cables to make sure they look good and not corroded or damaged and look at the connections at the engine. The original ground lead was a heavy mesh cable that bolted to the top of the intake manifold right by the battery. 12 volt isn't as fussy as 6 volt, but you still need good sized (gauge) cables to minimize resistance. The slower and slower turn over, almost seems more related to a bad connection that's barely providing the amperage. Though often they just stop and you get either the click or nothing at all until you rectify the problem wit the connection. What did mechanic number 2 say about the starter he was going to test? Did he take it out and bench test it? I'm still intrigued with the squealing sound from the bearings. Seems more like the sound from the piggy bank they are trying to sneak away with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 In the photo of the engine you posted I don't see the factory Ground cable (strap) so they have a different ground cable of some sort. I would look to see what that is grounded to. It should be grounded to the engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abua Posted March 19, 2018 Author Share Posted March 19, 2018 Hahaha yes big piggy bank small pockets. Mechanic didn’t get back with me as of yet. I think the ground off the battery is going to the block. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retiredmechanic74 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 If you had a bearing problem you should have heard it when it was running. But just for giggles put a wrench on the balancer bolt and see how the engine turns over by hand (if it's really hard to/or can't turn it over then you have an internal problem). I have a suspicion your neg. battery cable is bad. That cable runs from the battery to the engine block and all the grounds for the body are done from grounding straps from the engine to the body and sometimes from an extra cable from the neg. cable to the body. Completely remove the neg. cable from the car and perform a resistance test on it (should be little or no resistance in it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abua Posted March 19, 2018 Author Share Posted March 19, 2018 Thank you I will let the mechanic check that out. I posted a video of the engine running in the original post . There were no clanking sounds at all or rumbling sounds. If you can play the video and let me know what you hear if anything. Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retiredmechanic74 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, retiredmechanic74 said: If you had a bearing problem you should have heard it when it was running. But just for giggles put a wrench on the balancer bolt and see how the engine turns over by hand (if it's really hard to/or can't turn it over then you have an internal problem). I have a suspicion your neg. battery cable is bad. That cable runs from the battery to the engine block and all the grounds for the body are done from grounding straps from the engine to the body and sometimes from an extra cable from the neg. cable to the body. Completely remove the neg. cable from the car and perform a resistance test on it (should be little or no resistance in it) Question......is that a GM Alt. ? It doesn't appear to be wired properly. The GM Alt. has 3 contacts, the large one is always hot then you have ign.1 and ign.2 ......ign.2 is jumped over to the large connector, ign.1 is controlled by key and that wire should have a bulb spliced into it before it is connected to the alt. In other words the wire goes to the bulb and then the wire from the bulb goes to the Alt. if this is not done the Alt. will burn out. Edited March 19, 2018 by retiredmechanic74 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abua Posted March 19, 2018 Author Share Posted March 19, 2018 I haven’t had the car in my possession. More than a week. I had it delivered here and then in shop over 4 weeks now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 The link to it running is the last thing in the original post. The little blue hi lighted IMG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retiredmechanic74 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 1 hour ago, Abua said: I haven’t had the car in my possession. More than a week. I had it delivered here and then in shop over 4 weeks now. I listened to the engine and didn't hear anything out of the ordinary although it would have helped after you opened the hood if you had rived the engine somewhat. But it sounds OK to me. I would liked to of heard you cranking it to try to start it. Question, this problem is also present when the engine is cold, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abua Posted March 19, 2018 Author Share Posted March 19, 2018 That video was shot in Rochester NY 12 degree weather by the seller. I had it shipped down to Florida. When I got it the cranking was slow and pumped the gas twice and it started. I never had it long enough to test out the starting power when it was hot. I started it up in the garage with two pumps of the gas pedal backed it out of garage and then turned the car off never to be started again after I washed it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 I just discussed this with my friend and he said, pretty much what I was thinking, after reviewing the thread, that the only way the starter would be dragging because of a bearing failure, would be a catastrophic one in which the oil would have noticeable metal in it from the babbit on the bearings. Pretty much what I went over already. He said so far they haven't done squat for diagnosing, just parts changing in hopes it would fix the problem. 4 weeks in the shop, is sounding like fill in work or they don't know what they are doing. Most guys would want it out of their shop asap. Old cars, tend to get shoved to the back of regular shops because they prefer the plug and play cars that all you need to do is read the code as to what to replace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 I wish you had a video of it cranking. As mentioned, My Olds Doesn't zing over like a new Toyota either, but never fails to start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retiredmechanic74 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 2 hours ago, auburnseeker said: I wish you had a video of it cranking. As mentioned, My Olds Doesn't zing over like a new Toyota either, but never fails to start. If the car starts OK cold but drags after it is at normal opp. temp. it's because of a carbon build up behind the rings causing the rings to expand and drag against the cyl. walls. It can be fixed through the use of chemicals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 My starter might also need some new bushings as well, that will cause the armature to drag a bit as it racks in the worn bushings. I have a few others. I should probably freshen one up and put it in. As with a lot of these old cars, things wear out of tolerance over the years. Putting everything back within spec will make them perform like they should and a new car did back in the day. I never got the time to investigate it too much as it get very little use, and my more daily drivers get more attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abua Posted March 22, 2018 Author Share Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) So the mechanic is down to the ballast resistor not putting out 12v also bypassed it and the starter is not getting 12v either ballast is at 5 v and starter down between 5-9 v. Ordered new mini high torque starter because he thinks it burned out due to multiple cranks. and new ballast also changing the battery cables. Let’s see if this works. Also does anyone know how to tell if you have an R type hydramatic transmission on the 56 olds 88 base model? I need to order a gasket and it looks like there are two kinds Edited March 22, 2018 by Abua (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 The ballast resistor is NOT SUPPOSED to put out 12V. The whole point of the ballast resistor is to reduce voltage to the points from 12V to about 9V when the ignition is in the RUN position to prolong the life of the points. The resistor should NOT be connected to the starter in any case. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 So we go from 2 bad main bearings to a ballast resistor being the problem, which as Joe mentioned, should have nothing to do with the starter. The starter circuit should have been visually checked at the first shop first thing. Wow. Time for a new shop. If they get it running, with this fix, now that you are kind of committed to that, get it out of there and never take it back. When diagnosing always start with the very basic things. After everything checks out, go a little deeper, then a little deeper. I'm referring to diagnosing by the way, not your wallet, which they seem to be excavating pretty hard. Good luck and let us know how you make out. You can probably google about the trannies and get your answer. My cars is a 3 speed stick, so I can't help you there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abua Posted March 22, 2018 Author Share Posted March 22, 2018 Sorry I’m not a mechanic. The ballast was only putting out 5v Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abua Posted March 22, 2018 Author Share Posted March 22, 2018 The first mechanic didn’t charge me a dime. The second is much more cautious and a trouble shooter. All he replaced so far was the cap rotor and condenser that the first mechanic didn’t do only points. So mechanic # 2 already did the digging now noticed the ballast only at 5v and starter was only producing 5-9v so I made the call to change them out which was only $200 . The car is not producing enough speed and compression to start the motor so he thinks with a new starter high torque should give it enough speed . Sorry if some things I say don’t make sense I’m not a mechanic and I’m trying to translate the best I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 If voltage is low, that will cause the engine to turn over too slowly to start. Changing the starter will not change the voltage, however. Proper troubleshooting requires checking voltage at every connection from the battery to the starter to find the excessive resistance that is causing the voltage drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abua Posted March 22, 2018 Author Share Posted March 22, 2018 Yes that is why my engine is turning over slowly and won’t start. He checked from battery to starter everything seemed fine till he hit the ballast and voltage was low. Cheap enough to replace. That’s when the starter was checked and the voltage was also low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 6 minutes ago, Abua said: Yes that is why my engine is turning over slowly and won’t start. He checked from battery to starter everything seemed fine till he hit the ballast and voltage was low. Cheap enough to replace. That’s when the starter was checked and the voltage was also low. I guess I don't know what you are calling "ballast". There is a resistor that powers the coil. This is unrelated to the starter. If the ballast resistor is wired to the starter, that's your first problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abua Posted March 22, 2018 Author Share Posted March 22, 2018 Yes I know. I was wrong earlier. Ballast is the resistor. It is not wired to the starter. The starter on its own is low on voltage. Also I think we may have cranked it too many time and wore it out. We will change the resistor first and a fresh set of battery cables. Then install fresh starter. Will let you know if it kicks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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