philipj Posted June 1, 2018 Author Share Posted June 1, 2018 Darn, this is getting complicated and frustrating! Something as simple as a fuel pump! I removed the pump for the 4th time and reinstalled it, but did not re-start...Will try tomorrow for sure... No matter what, I still would like to get something that will work better, but don't have money to waste on the wrong pump, plus the cost to rebuild $120- from Terrill Machine in TX. This can be confusing for the following reason... The original pump that came with the car is dated 47 or 48 and looks very much like the type AB. I don't remember it leaking the way the earlier AB style I have now... Are the problems with the AB pumps the way they mount as I described? With the series AJ pump, the arm seems to be facing the wrong direction for it to work/install from that photo... On the plus side, It would make sense that the mounting flange is much larger than the AB type... Another important aspect is the vacuum lines; mine are together on the left side while the AJ type has them 180° apart... I hope that the right side vacuum line would not interfere with the front engine mount... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 (edited) I gather you are trying to put an AB pump on a 1947 engine. From the posts above, It sounds like that will not work. I also gather that the pump you took off looked like an AB, and not like the AJ that allegedly should be on the 1947 engine. Do you still have the pump you took off? Could it have been some sort of frankenstein someone built up so they could use all the 1938 vacuum and fuel plumbing on the 1947 engine? Now would be a good time for pictures of the mounting flanges on the block of a late 320 and an early one (if anyone in this thread has such pictures handy) I can't tell for sure, but from Spineyhill's pictures it looks as if one of those pumps mounts on an upside down flange. If so, that would be another early/late incompatibility in addition to the arm. Which way is up? and did it change from AB to AJ? Edited June 1, 2018 by Bloo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
critterpainter Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 The picture that has "AJ" on it does NOT have the correct arm for a 41-50 Buick. The correct arm goes out from the opening about an inch and then goes almost straight out The arm is similar to the 248 fuel pump but spaced slightly further out from the pump and stands almost straight out while the 248 pump angles slightly away from the pump at the top If the picture posted this is what the arm should look like. the pump shown is 1951-52 320 CID but should interchange with 41-50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 (edited) If you can't snug the AB up against the engine and it leaks oil, perhaps a thicker gasket until you can snug it up against the block? Maybe 3 or 4 mm or more? Note the way up the AJ is on @BuickBob49's engine. Edited June 1, 2018 by Spinneyhill (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted June 1, 2018 Author Share Posted June 1, 2018 I should clarify that I am trying to correct a problem I inherited... I may very well have a peg forced into a square or a Frankenstein pump (sure looks that way now) but I would like to correct it if possible... Below is the pump that came with the vehicle which I was considering rebuilding, BUT it seems that it would not be wise for obvious reasons... I can post a photo of what it looks like mounted on the 47 block later on since my phone is acting up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted June 1, 2018 Author Share Posted June 1, 2018 (edited) Below is a 52 Buick Roadmaster pump. I suppose I could use this, I just would have to work out the vacuum lines... Not an easy fix. Another option is a 39 Roadmaster that has threaded vacuum lines, but I don't know if the mounting flange is the same as what I have right now... Edited June 2, 2018 by philipj (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted June 1, 2018 Author Share Posted June 1, 2018 (edited) I just have been told by Terrill Machine that the Correct Pump for a 1947 Buick 320C.I. engine Is an AC #530... Edited June 2, 2018 by philipj (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 11 hours ago, philipj said: I just have been told by Terrill Machine that the Correct Pump for a 1947 Buick 320C.I. engine Is an AC #530... That is correct. See my posts #36 & 38 above. The original pump part number for a '41-'51 engine is listed there too (1537338 - from the AC book). You might find 7338 stamped in the edge of the mounting flange. On 3/31/2018 at 3:28 PM, philipj said: The model series AB, type 422-518-FV18 (from your post #39 above). I think the FV18 is a designation by another maker such as Carter or Airtex or Kem and is the same as an AC type 518. #530 was originally called a "group" number, then it became the "type" during the 1930s. At the same time, the "model" became the "series" (AB, AJ etc.). There could be several types within a series - only the arm may be different to fit different engines. 1939 60 to 90 pumps will NOT work on a 1947 engine - see my posts above. You want a pump from later '40 to 1951. I don't think the '52 pump will work unless you change the arm. BTW, the R9781 stamped on the flange tells me it is pump made in the (early?) '50s. Based on what I have seen on ebay and so on, I think there was a major run of new pumps made about that time and all the numbers were changed. One major difference is the very thick flange on top of the mounting base - see your AB pump above. Earlier flanges were thin with raised portions for reinforcing and tended to become wavy if the screws were too tight (they were poor die cast metal). The arm 1522071 is NOT for your '47 engine. Engineering mechanics-wise, I think it makes sense for the two mounting bolts to be at the top, not at the bottom as on the second gasket shown in Bloo's post #42 above. IF you have the right arm to change in, this one will interchange: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-AC-Dual-Vacuum-Fuel-Pump-1939-40-Oldsmobile-L39-90-Pontiac-29-Torpedo/192556283132?hash=item2cd53fb4fc:g:XgwAAOSwvMlZ4BJ-&vxp=mtr The directions of the vacuum lines (and fuel lines for that matter) can be changed by simple rotation of the parts (undo the screws, remove and rotate, replace the screws, done). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
critterpainter Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 Spinneyhill is correct, you cant install the early fuel pump on the later engine, and you don't want to. The early pumps had an issue with oil getting trapped at the flange to the block and then seeping out while the engine is off. The flange shape and location on the early blocks is different than the post 39 blocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted June 2, 2018 Author Share Posted June 2, 2018 In agreement with you guys about all the problems and application... Unfortunately, I have no parts to swap, as much as I would like to get a cheap core at this point, I want the best I can get-after removing the fuel pump so many times already... So, would you confirm that the pump pictured above is the correct one? The 530 model... I would like to be done with this issue to address yet another still... Intermittent cutout at different speeds, still... After retiming the engine several times, replacing all new ignition parts, etc. Still dealing with this problem, a real pita! Could it be a bad ground with the voltage regulator or generator? Noticed I have no grounding wire for the generator... Need to check how the regulator is mounted also and check for grounding... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 Running issues are very unlikely to be anything to do with the charging system. The generator is grounded via its frame. It is possible for the regul;ator ground to have problems is there is rust between any of its grounding surfaces (also via its frame). I had that probl;em with my Roadmaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted June 2, 2018 Author Share Posted June 2, 2018 (edited) Hello Don, It so happens that I just found the regulator ground wire loose on the regulator, and an additional ground wire from the starting system without a connector (just twisted on the bolt! I also added an additional star washer between the regulator and the body, but I may have to scratch some of the paint off for a good ground... It runs much much better... Last night it was bucking like a wild bronco, to the point of my wife saying, whatever you did in there, did not fix the problem, it is worse than before!... @%$!! I bit my tongue and told her I would check it today...;) After all this and another drive, I noticed that it hesitates slightly AFTER hard acceleration in second gear... In other words, about 20 MPH I will stomp on the gas pedal hard, then let go, followed by re-acceleration... It still hesitates a little bit! The distributor shaft is tight all around, and I just checked the timing one more time! Maybe the 12th time... I have lost track now. I have made a short video but it was rejected here because of its size, and have no idea how to compress... If anyone is interested in viewing I will gladly send along for your input... Edited June 2, 2018 by philipj (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 4 hours ago, philipj said: So, would you confirm that the pump pictured above is the correct one? The 530 model... YES! The 530 is correct. And if that is one, that is correct. As for cutting out, any wires in the distributor that have poor or no insulation that can touch the distributor body from time to time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted June 3, 2018 Author Share Posted June 3, 2018 (edited) I just replaced everything in the distributor when I had it out, down to the plate, 2 wires, plus points, condenser, cap, rotor (all NOS) except for a new wire set from Bob's Automobilia... My next thing (though unrelated) is to buy an AC 530 fuel pump... I have left a message with Bob and another with an Ebay vendor advertising an AC 529 pump... Does anyone know the difference between the 530 and 519 fuel pumps? Sure looks like the one used on BuickBob49's Roadmaster, though mounted upside down... I have not been able to find what he has... Edited June 4, 2018 by philipj (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted June 4, 2018 Author Share Posted June 4, 2018 (edited) I just ordered a type 530 from Kanter's Auto, exactly as the one in post# 47... I just will have to redo all my fuel and vacuum lines again, and hope that my oil issues will be over... Edited June 4, 2018 by philipj (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 Are the "new" ignition wires NOS? Remember the "O" stands for old. And with anything that is rubber, insulation or elastomer, old = junk. If the wires are NOS, you might be getting crossfire where the spark jumps from wire to wire due to bad insulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted June 12, 2018 Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 (edited) The wires are brand new, so I hope there are no issues there... And I just received the new #530 fuel pump from Kanter's which I will install tomorrow... I really have to cross my fingers and hope that with this, plus re-routing the fuel line from the carburetor close to factory specs, the car will run as it should... One important detail that I just noticed is the fact that the inlet line from the tank is NOT on the left side of the pump (as expected) but the right side which will make it interesting to run the new lines... Curious as to how the original 47 lines were done... Seems like a lot of extra bends by having the fuel inlet on the right side instead of the left... Could I also safely assume that the vacuum/suction side to the wiper motor is on the left of the pump? Almost impossible to move the lever to determine which is the one... Edited June 12, 2018 by philipj (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 If it helps. you could rotate the fuel pump inlet on the pump to suit. Just undo the screws, rotate and refit. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
critterpainter Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 Note: All of your pictures show the pump upside down. don't forget that the fuel pump is on the bottom and the vacuum pump is on top. The fuel outlet is next to the pressure "dome" and will need a right angle fitting in it. It looks indexed correctly in you photos. Can be a bit of a pain to start the line to the carb into it, but patience is a virtue Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted June 14, 2018 Author Share Posted June 14, 2018 Hello Critterpainter, You can't imagine how much I appreciate your message which I wished I had gotten earlier since I had everything installed upside down and wondered why I wasn't getting any fuel!!... You see, I am unfamiliar with this model pump and just by what I am used to for the last 30 years (other wartime vehicles and previous AB Style pump) you would look at the flange and dome and install the way I did... Still reeling and feeling like a total idiot since I redid all the lines for this configuration... It means that I almost have to start from scratch... Yet, I still have a few things I would like to confirm before I make myself crazy again trying to source, bend and flare all the necessary lines, etc... Not to mention the time spent. 1- Location of fuel inlet from the tank 2- Location of the suction side for windshield wiper 3- Verify that arm# 1523993 with the current pump is for a Buick 8, since the only way to insert it would be towards the bottom, as opposed to the topside approach with the AB style pump for a 1947 block.... Again, thank you for the help with this... Now I have to eat crow and tell the supplier that I don't have to return the pump after all, unless the arm in it will not work for a Buick... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph P. Indusi Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 I feel your pain on this, very frustrating. I hope you get it all straightened out real soon. In regard to Teflon tape on gas line fittings I agree with the earlier posts to avoid using it. As stated in one earlier post, it is a lubricant and if it is used in attaching a male brass fitting to the pump body it will allow the brass fitting to go further into the threaded hole in the pump body and may crack the pump body at that point. Don't ask me how I know this may happen. Joe, BCA 33493 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted June 14, 2018 Author Share Posted June 14, 2018 No matter how hard I try as a dry fit, I cannot insert the pump the right way with the arm from the bottom... Even spinning the motor a few times did not help... I wonder if indeed that is the right arm for this application... I never imagined this could be so difficult! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 What does the flange on the engine look like? Your post above mentions upside down. You may be miles ahead of me already, and probably are, but here goes anyway. The LAST picture in post 30 shows how both of those fuel pumps mount on an engine right side up, I think. In fact I am fairly sure. Notice the flanges are opposite! The fuel is obviously on top on the one on the left, but due to the little anti-hammer chamber on the bottom, I think the one on the right has the fuel on the bottom. It sounds like you have already tried mounting the pump all possible ways. I am really curious about that flange. Are you absolutely sure about the year of the engine? I seem to remember you getting it identified by the numbers in some other thread, but I am not sure. This must be really frustrating. Keep it up. You are getting close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 I am wondering if you could post some photos of your engine? Earlier, in another discussion, your engine was identified as a 1948 Series 70 engine by number. I don't recall who identified it by the number, but my research shows that identification correct according to the number. " On 2/21/2018 at 7:24 PM, philipj said: Hello there again, Would anyone have a list of the Buick Century's serial number range for the year 1938? I am dealing with 8 digits starting with 50XXXX97. Furthermore, would additional stamping be located on the the driver's side front section? Thank you .. That is a 1948 series 70 [320 ] engine number." If the engine ran with your earlier fuel pump, it had to be somehow be running the fuel pump with a totally different style arm from that found on a 1948 engine. I don't think that a 1948 engine could have possibly run with the earlier fuel pump arm configuration. I am not 100% convinced which year engine your car actually has in it. It is impossible to know which fuel pump you need without knowing with certainty which engine you actually have. Photos of both sides of the engine would be helpful, front, middle, rear, one showing the fuel pump mounting flange, A clear photo of the engine serial number stamping more photos can't hurt... Please help us help you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
critterpainter Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 IF the engine in your car is a 1941 and newer 320 engine the fuel pump in the bottom picture on the right in the last post you made is the correct pump in the correct orientation. On the 1941-52 Buick engines, the simple minded method I use to see whether the fuel pump is for a large series or a small series is to try to put my thumb between the arm and the body of the pump. If your thumb fits, its a large series arm. if there is no way your thumb fits, its a small series engine pump. Another check is that the contact surface on the large series is about 90 degrees to the mounting flange. on the small series, the rub surface tips down at a slight angle. To mount the pump, I don't hold the pump level with the holes, I slope the back hole downhill so the bolt hole on the pump is below the threads on the block. I then start he front bolt and rotate the pump and catch the rear hole. The springs on a fresh rebuilt pump can be quite stiff. Bill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted June 14, 2018 Author Share Posted June 14, 2018 I will follow up tomorrow with the rest, but for now, I can state that the engine serial number is 13330366 which is either a 47 or 48 series 70 as I was told... My first question is, the AB pump had the arm on top and the 530 pump on the bottom... We have established that the 530 pump is correct for a 47 or 48 year... Imagine that the next thing to verify is the arm#. This one is marked 1523993... Thank you all for the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 I don't think that is the correct engine serial number. It is not what you posted previously as the engine number. If you were to be misreading a poorly stamped first digit of a 6 as a 1 and that is your engine number, it looks like your 1938 Buick might have a 1938 engine. The photos might help confirm the correct engine year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 What about if you poke your finger in the fuel pump mounting hole and find the cam? If it is above the mount, the 530 in post 60 would be like your second picture when mounted. If below, .... you get the idea. So that arm either goes on top of the cam or the bottom of it. On the other pump, the arm is obviously on the side of the cam. Take a piece of printer paper and do a pressing on the mounting flange on the engine and see which pump it fits - they look slightly different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted June 14, 2018 Author Share Posted June 14, 2018 Hello Matt, My apologies, I was pretty worn out last night and I gave you the frame s/n instead... The engine serial # is 50650397. As for trying to put my finger on the cam, it cannot be reached by hand, it seems higher than the mounting opening... I would imagine with the pump right side up, the arm would have to come in from the bottom, but as I stated before I cannot get it to line up with the mounting holes. I will have to try again to install the pump per Bill's instructions... Regarding the possibility of being a pump for the smaller series engines, the opening in the pump where the arm fits into is 15/16... By contrast, the AB pump's opening is 11/16... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 Could you post some photos of the engine? You seem to be having a lot of trouble identifying the year of the engine and photos would help identify it for sure. Being sure about the engine year will make it a lot easier for you to know what you need anytime you need parts in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted June 14, 2018 Author Share Posted June 14, 2018 (edited) I have some engine photos here, hopefully we can solve the mystery as to the actual year and fitment... Edited June 14, 2018 by philipj (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 It is not a 1938 320 Engine. The location of the serial number, the extra engine mount location, and the fuel pump mounting shape eliminates that as a possibility. I am not an expert but from the engine number and the information available online, as previously pointed out, it appears to be a 1948 320 engine from a 70 series car. I don't have a parts book that late, so someone else will have to confirm the correct parts for that engine. It would seem that any fuel pump for a 1948 320 engine should fit. I can't imagine that anyone would have done anything internally to make it use any other fuel pump, but I guess anything is possible since I have no idea of its history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 According to the reference section on Team Buick, the block is indeed a 1948 Series 70. 1948 numbers began with 4,999 881. 1949 began 5,220, 972. The 7 indicates 70 series, Roadmaster. Your valve cover appears to be from a '37, as I believe '38 or '39 began with using only two bolts.. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted June 14, 2018 Author Share Posted June 14, 2018 Hello Bruce and Mathew, Thank you for confirming the engine date, it will be very helpful in the future... According to all the information here, the correct fuel pump for a 1948 Buick Roadmaster as mentioned by Bloo is p/n 1537338 Type 530, Series AJ, which is what I have... What puzzles me regarding fitment is the following: Are there any pivot arm variants or could something be different in my engine, since it was able to run with an AB type pump with the pivot arm coming from the top and not the bottom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 The '38 Valve covers have 3 bolts. May may gone to 2 late in the year. Both my '38 Special and Roadmaster have 3 bolts 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted June 15, 2018 Author Share Posted June 15, 2018 (edited) After fiddling with the new pump I finally got it to go in after turning the motor over again... Before that, even if I turned slightly sideways towards the back I could not slide it in no matter how hard I tried. Going forward is not an option since it will hit the frame... After turning the motor over and getting the flat side of the cam (guessing) I was able to get it in by turning slightly to the back, then tilting upright and starting with the front bolt first, then the other... What bothers me is that there was no resistance from the pivot arm at all which makes me wonder... I just redid the all the vacuum lines again and reconfigured the inlet line, with only a short splice from the pump to carburetor line left over to be done for the test... After that, I will reinstall the oil filter housing and crank it up, hopefully it will work out... Quite frankly, this has worn me out. If I don't have to see another fuel line or pump for the next hundred years, I will be very happy with that! Edited June 15, 2018 by philipj (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted June 15, 2018 Author Share Posted June 15, 2018 (edited) My dear friends, being unfamiliar with these engines and not knowing what other changes may have been done in the past made me a little skeptical as to the final outcome after so many setbacks... Gladly, after much perseverance, some cursing and the grace of God, I got everything in and working!!! I even redid in one shot a new line from the carburetor all the way to the fuel pump in one piece, it took some time... The hardest part being the connection at the very bottom to the pump fitting... I must also say that the car is very smooth and has plenty of power... Whatever engine hesitation I had before I say it is gone now... Thank you all for your patience and input. Much appreciated. Edited June 16, 2018 by philipj (see edit history) 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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