1920 Dodge Brothers Touring

[MWilson]

Hello All....I recently acquired this totally original and unrestored 1920 Dodge Brothers Touring from the estate of a family friend who passed away a few months ago.  He had purchased it around 1957 from the original purchaser, so I'm the 3rd owner.  It was last driven around 10 years ago and ran fine.  I haven't tried to start it yet, because I wanted to get some information before I give it a go (I'm not familiar with these cars...).

 

A few questions I have:

1) Positive or negative ground? (I'm aware it's 12 volt)

2)  The gas tank is in the back, but I heard there's also a vacuum tank that needs fuel for it to start?

3) Any advice on where to set the spark advance?

4) As far as I can tell, and from conversation with the previous owner, the top has NEVER been down on this car (and there are no bracket's at the rear for holding the top, but the holes are present).  The top feels pliable, but I'm concerned about damaging it if I tried to lower it (I would love to have the top in working order).  Any advice?

 

Thanks!

[keiser31]

What a NICE car! Sounds like you might need an "Book of Information" for the car which will tell you a LOT about it.

[R.White]

First may I say you have a wonderful time warp car.  There will be a lot of envious guys reading this.  I am surprised this historically important vehicle has not been snapped up by a museum.  Needless to say you will appreciate it's originality..

 

1) It will be positive ground.   As you correctly say the electrics are 12 volt.  Dodge Brothers were early pioneers with 12 volts and the car is fitted with a chain driven starter/generator unit which gives silent starting and was an advanced feature in it's day.

 

2)You will find the vacuum pump under the hood.  It is probably bolted to the cylinder head.  This tank is what many cars used as a petrol pump and works by sucking fuel from the tank an the back of the car by means of a vacuum created by the induction of the engine taken from the inlet manifold to which the carb is bolted.  The carb is supplied from the tank by gravity feed .The vacuum tank in your car is possibly by  Stewart Warner.  There is some useful information posted recently on this forum.

 

3)When you eventually start the car you should set the advance/retard lever fully retarded.  As a safety precaution, always set the ignition to "retard"  (that is with the lever on the steering wheel in the down position)  if you need to use the crank handle.  Failure to observe this procedure could result in a kick back and potentially a broken wrist.

 

4)Leave the top until you have heard from 'Trimacar' on this forum.  He is a professional trimer with a lot of experience with this type of top.  

 

My car is later (1926) but  there are many similarities.  My advice would be to change the engine oil with SAE straight 30  before trying to start the engine. Don't use synthetic detergent oil on the engine until it has been cleaned out or it will lift huge quantities of silt and carry it to the bearings.  There is no drain plug so you will need to disconnect a pipe to the oil pump.  Withdrawing the filter may give you an idea if the pan is full of silt.  These engines have a splash feed (non pressurised) oil system. There is no "dip" stick instead there is a rod with a float attached which moves in a hole in the block.   

 

You are a very, very luck chap to land this car.  All I can suggest is you acquire a mechanics workshop manual and a copy of "The book of Information" for your year.  Spares and literature are available from Myers Early Parts and Romar.

 

I am almost as excited about your car as if I had found it myself!! 

 

Ask any questions you like.

 

Ray.

Edited March 6, 2018 by R.White
minor change (see edit history)

[nearchoclatetown]

MWilson, before you receive more bad information do as John Keiser suggested and get a copy of the Book of Information for your car. It MAY be under your seat as many were kept there. If not go to the Dodge Brothers Club website and determine by your serial number what month your car was built. Then look at the list of Books of Information and determine which Book you need. You want the one printed RIGHT before your car was produced for it to be most accurate for your car DB did not have once a year changes, if a new better part or system was found it was put into use. The Books listed on the DB site are owned by the DB club and kept at the AACA library. You can obtain a copy by emailing or calling the Book edition number to them. They will mail it to you for a small charge. Looks like a very good complete car. Become familiar with the car through the Book of Information, which is the owner's manual,  before attempting to start it.  I wish you luck and many years of pleasure with it. 

[R.White]

Nearchoc. If you think I have given bad information then  say what you mean.     

Edited March 6, 2018 by R.White (see edit history)

[trimacar]

2 hours ago, R.White said:

4)Leave the top until you have heard from 'Trimacar' on this forum.  He is a professional trimer with a lot of experience with this type of top.  

Well, first of all, you need to find a set of the saddles that go in the holes in the rear quarters, to be able to put the top down correctly.  Just resting it on the spare tire will do more harm than good.

 

If it were mine, I'd give the top a good cleaning before putting it down, it appears to be a vinyl type material so water shouldn't hurt it (and it should be water proof anyway.

 

That is not the original top, so it's not like you're trying to save history, just go carefully to save what's there.

 

Once it's cleaned and you have something to rest the top on when down, undo the front latches and gently, with a helper, start folding top.  If it's too brittle to fold you'll know it soon enough.  Carefully fold and put down, making sure not to pinch the top material or pads between the irons.

[keiser31]

Best to let the car sit out in the sun and let the top warm up prior to lowering it. If it is cold, it will be VERY brittle.

[22touring]

"Nearchoc. If you think I have given bad information then have the balls to say what you mean."

 

Yeah, Nearchoc, I was wondering about that, too.  Why don't you specify what part of the foregoing information was "bad"?     

[MWilson]

Appreciate everyone’s thoughts. Trimacar, Curious how you know it’s not the original top?  I figured it was, looks very original to me.

[cahartley]

1 hour ago, nearchoclatetown said:

MWilson, before you receive more bad information 

 

WHAT bad information?...... 

[keiser31]

As far as the top goes, I see the "cathedral windows" on the rear of the 1919s in my books and on a 1921 they are rectangular. Anyone know if 1920 had the cathedral windows? This one says it's a 1920....

Edited March 7, 2018 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[keiser31]

This one also says 1920....

[22touring]

DB went to the rectangular rear window on touring cars and roadsters in May of 1921, keiser31: May 13 for the touring and May 17 for the roadster.

 

MWilson, those top rests might be somewhat difficult to locate because (1) they tend to be rare because they were optional extras, so not all cars had them; and (2) the touring car's top design changed about 6 times between the beginning of production in 1914 and the time your car was built, and when the top design changed the top rest design changed, too.  You've got to have exactly the right top rests or else the top either won't enter the top rest at all, or it won't sit correctly therein.  If you'd give me the serial number of your car, I'll give you the parts numbers for the right and left top rests that you need.  This information appears at page 334 of the DB Master Parts List book.

 

Edited March 7, 2018 by 22touring (see edit history)

[R.White]

I love the old top.  It has oodles of character.  I am also fascinated by the return at the front and the way that it is fastened up.  Is it supposed to hang down when the car is parked in direct sunlight to protect the interior?  I notice your car has  period dampers fitted.  I assume these to be an after market extra but I am not well up on these early cars enough to be sure.  Interestingly, your car has no scuttle side lights so I presume it to be a standard model but again I don't know if the early cars had any. The head lights look original to me.  I wonder if they were originally nickel plated and the plating has worn off over time exposing the brass.?    This really is a little gem.  It would be great to see photos under the hood.  Say, taken from both sides.  

Edited March 7, 2018 by R.White (see edit history)

[trimacar]

The far shot did not lead me to think it was original.  Also, I was under the impression the cathedral rear windows were factory further up into the twenties.

 

Your close up pictures make it look more like an original, or at least, a very good copy of an original, as the light color inside is correct.

 

what makes it so hard these days, let's say the top was replaced in 1955 with original style materials.  Now you'd have a 60 year old top that would look like your impression of an original top.

 

yours could be original....

[nearchoclatetown]

Really didn't feel like arguing when a new owner is looking for information. Just thought it best for him to read for himself and get the straight scoop.  There are volumes of information in the Books of Information if used correctly and answers many questions rather the relying on well meaning internet info.   But if you ask, according to what I read positive ground started in '22 after the horn button moved from the door to the steering wheel. It was done for corrosion prevention. The only way it would have a magneto was if it were a foreign car, maybe Australia,  most likely RHD, which it isn't. It definitely isn't the correct top, like Trimacar said. Not the correct material and should still be cathedral windows. I personally would not put it down unless I was prepared to replace it as it will probably tear. It also looks like the interior was redone at some point, most likely in vinyl but should have button tufted for sure. With both items done at some time it MAY have been painted, but at least it is the correct color. It even appears as it has blue wheels, which is also correct. This is NOT to degrade the car, it looks great JUST the way it is. I would be very proud to own and drive it just like it is. Deluxe cars did not exist in '20 so it would not have cowl lights either. If I am wrong I apologize, but I think I am right.

Edited March 7, 2018 by nearchoclatetown (see edit history)

[MikeC5]

It does look like a very nice find!  You may want to take a good look in the gas tank with a strong light before pouring gas in there.  If any gas was left in it from 10 years ago it could be a mess and should be cleaned out (best to remove tank to do this).  If not, then someone did you a favor and drained it before storing the car.  After you change oil and want to try and start it, you will want to prime the vacuum tank first.  There may be a removable plug in the top of the vacuum tank (in center), removing plug and pouring a cup of gasoline in the tank (if no plug you'll have to remove fuel inlet fitting and pour in there).  The gas gravity feeds  from the vacuum tank to carb (there should be a shut off valve at bottom of vacuum tank that will need to be opened too).  The rest of the starting procedure is in the Book of Information but it basically involves setting spark to full retard, pulling out choke, adjusting idle speed lever and turning on ignition.  The starter button is on the floor.   Good luck!

Edited March 7, 2018 by MikeC5 (see edit history)

[22touring]

The source for my foregoing statement that cathedral windows were abandoned in May of 1921 is the handwritten production notes of Frederick Haynes, John Dodge's production assistant at the time, from the Chrysler Historical Collection.

 

Edit: Oops, I goofed! It would have been rather difficult for Haynes to have been John Dodge's production assistant in 1921, wouldn't it, since John died in 1920!  I believe Haynes was promoted to factory superintendent after the brothers' deaths.

Edited March 7, 2018 by 22touring (see edit history)

[nearchoclatetown]

You are correct, cathedral windows left in late '21. Haynes was named President in Jan. '21. As I said the owner should do some research in correct locations, starting with a Book of Information. 

[MWilson]

Appreciate everyone’s thoughts, I will try and upload some more detailed pictures tomorrow. I’m located in Ontario Canada, and as far as I know the car was purchased at a dealership here. Would the Canadian aspect have anything to do with any of the inconsistencies that have been pointed out?

[nearchoclatetown]

It shouldn't  effect things. You may want to look at the production chart on the DBC website to make sure when your car was built. That could change a lot of things. Pictures would help, both sides of the engine compartment for sure. 

[R.White]

M Wilson.  The point about the car having possibly been revived at some time in the past is well made.  The pleated upholstery is indeed telling.  I stand corrected about the polarity but nothing should be taken for granted after all these years and only an investigation of the wiring can be relied on.  I did in fact edit out my error regarding a magneto. An easy mistake as virtually all our cars of this period were so equipped.  Bearing in mind your location, I would look closely at the engine to see if there are any cracks.  Frost damage to these old iron castings is surprisingly common.  

[Ron Lawson]

Many DB owners in America are ignorant of the fact that DB cars that were exported to Australia and other countries were Magneto equipt I know where you are coming from Ray

 

[MWilson]

Really scratching my head as to how this could not be the original interior.  If it was replaced, it would have to be during the 1920's...and what would have necessitated that?  This interior is in decent shape given the age, but has all the right wear. The original purchaser was a bachelor who lived with his mother, so it's not like he had a bunch of kids ripping up the upholstery.

[MWilson]

Engine pics.  The stamp on the block reads "4 13 20".

[MWilson]

A pic of the headlight and the "Knight Rebound Controller" as were commented on in an earlier post.  The body of the car was overpainted black by the second owner at some point in the 1960's or so.

[22touring]

Nearchoc wrote:  "looks like the interior was redone at some point, most likely in vinyl but should have button tufted for sure."

 

Nope, the original upholstery on a '20 model would have been pleated, not tufted.  DB switched from the tufted to the pleated seats in 1918.  Also, you mean "affect", not "effect". And why do you say the upholstery is vinyl? It's obviously leather, and looks just like the original upholstery on my '22 touring when I bought it from a museum.  So I say the upholstery may well be original.  I am not sure about the top, so I won't comment on that.

 

 

[nearchoclatetown]

OK, sorry for my misinformation about the tufted interior.  I have not found proof of when the tufted interior ended. I found it for roadsters but not touring cars. The '20 I know of had tufted so it is probably wrong. The serial number would prove a lot. And the owner still should do his own research The picture of interior sure looked like vinyl to my eyes, but I was sure the paint was far to good for 100 year old paint. DB did not use primer and the original paint comes off in sheets. I see a Northeast distributor and coil with a modern substitute mounted behind. DO not throw the coil away as they can be rebuilt. And they are often are still OK, it was just bad diagnosis that replaced them. 

[trimacar]

MWilson, you have a very nice car that you can be proud of, and you're handling our "negative" comments well.  Sometimes people, myself included, are too quick to judge things.

 

The problem these days is that it is very difficult to tell what is original versus what is an old restoration that's been weathered quite a bit.  100 years is a long time, and a lot can happen to a car over that span.

 

I'll give you an example.  I used to spend a lot of time in Sacramento in the great State of California, and there is a large car museum there.  I would go in quite often, but on my first visit, I fell in love with a big, beautiful 1910 Peerless touring car.  It was patina and then some, and I would have sworn on a stack of Hemmings that it was all original.

 

I called a friend of mine in Idaho who knows just about every significant early car out there.  I told him, hey, I'm standing next to the nicest original early Peerless I've ever seen.  Oh, he said, the one in the Sacramento museum?  No, that one was restored in about 1950 then driven on every tour the owner could find for years.  That's not an original car, just an older restoration.

 

Attached is not a good picture, but in real life, the patina was what one would THINK and original, well stored, car would look like.

[R.White]

The interior looks like original leather to me.  If it were mine I would get a leather upholstery  expert to sympathetically restore it.  They can work wonders from what I have seen.

 

One thing you might want to do is source a replacement exhaust manifold.  The pipe would originally be held on by a large coarse threaded nut.  The nuts are readily available but you may need to hunt for a manifold. They sometimes appear on eBay.  It would be a good idea to find the chassis number and then you could easily trace the exact date of construction.

[MWilson]

1 hour ago, trimacar said:

The problem these days is that it is very difficult to tell what is original versus what is an old restoration that's been weathered quite a bit.  100 years is a long time, and a lot can happen to a car over that span.

For sure, absolutely understand 100%.  The thing with this car is that I know the history of it pretty much from day 1. The second owner was a close family friend and well respected antique car collector, who was heavily in the "don't touch it" category.  This was his first old car purchase in or around 1957.  Other than having the body overpainted in the 60's and making whatever mech tweaks were required to keep it driveable, he really didn't touch it.  If he did my father and grandfather would know about it, as they were great friends through that entire time period.  So that leaves the only possibility of an older restoration or changes taking place between 1920 and 1957 by the original owner.  The second owner knew the family of the first owner, and the first owner personally, so an older restoration would be known about and information transferred to the second (I don't know how common restoration projects on cars like this would be pre 57, but I'm guessing not common at all).  Plus, the second owner had a lot of old cars, so while the DB was driven occasionally over the years (post 57), it was by no means a weekly or monthly, or even yearly driver.  The majority of the original wear then was accumulated between 1920 and 1957....throw an older restoration in there and you don't have the wear.  I think in the case of this car, provenance is key...and it feels right.  At the end of day I'm tickled to own it ... thanks everyone.

[MikeC5]

It's great that you know so much of the history of the car.  It sounds like you have a pretty solid case for seats being original and maybe the top too!  I like those 'shocks'.

[72caddy]

Nice car! Comparing it to my 1919 I do notice a few things that you may want to see if they would be the same for your car. I noticed that the top hold down brackets on the front bow have a bolt head. On mine the are more like propeller shaped so you could easily loosen and tighten them. I also noticed that you have a modern spark plugs wire separator right at the manifold level. On my car there is a small wooden block that is bolted to the manifold for this purpose. I don't see the oil level rod between the front and second cylinder casting on the driver side of the engine. Is the rod sunk? A common issue but it can only be fixed by removing the oil pan, which is a pain. The manifold to exhaust pipe looks strange to me but I  haven't looked at my car in so long it may be the same. If you need photos of what I describe just let me know. 

Yours does look like a 1920 or newer because it has the slanted windshield. Mine is straight up and down. The top rests that Trimacar mentions can be seen in the photos supplied by others to compare top rear windows. Mine has the square rear window but I know it is not original. These top rests are VERY hard to find. Many get straight bars made in the meantime to support the top and not let it completely rest on the spare.

It does seem the nickel has been rubbed off the headlight bezels, but I like the look. The bezels were mostly German silver (not shiny) other than the war years where they were black.

Lastly the serial number is on the passenger side crossmember forward of the front seat. Pull the floor board up and you should see a very faint 6-7 digit number stamped in the metal. Numbers are about 1/2 tall.

Hope this helps!

Edited March 8, 2018 by 72caddy
Spelling (see edit history)

[MikeC5]

I had never noticed the bracket that stabilizes the horn (going up to the radiator support rod) on other cars I looked at.  Mine could use one of those as the horn does rock quite a bit at idle.  Does anyone know what other years used the bracket?  Zooming up the photo it looks as if it may be electrical tape...

Edited March 9, 2018 by MikeC5 (see edit history)

[R.White]

8 hours ago, MikeC5 said:

I had never noticed the bracket that stabilizes the horn (going up to the radiator support rod) on other cars I looked at.  Mine could use one of those as the horn does rock quite a bit at idle.  Does anyone know what other years used the bracket?  Zooming up the photo it looks as if it may be electrical tape...

 

I wonder if that is a bracket or a strop?  Is it original?

 

The point made about the oil level indicator is well made.  The pan MUST be removed because there is no way of knowing how much oil is in there.  It might be that the last person to refit the pan just forgot  about the rod - or maybe gave up trying!..  M.Wilson might like to consider my tip about using a magnet on the block to hold the rod as it emerges through the hole - giving him both hands with which to fit the pan.

 

Ray.

Edited March 9, 2018 by R.White (see edit history)

[MikeC5]

Quote

The pan MUST be removed because there is no way of knowing how much oil is in there.

Good point!

[R.White]

Also, even if there is sufficient clean oil the rod is likely still in place and could get caught by the crank.  With the pan off it would be an opportunity to look at the bearings.  I would also check out the oil pump and clean out the oil gallery.  I know this would mean further dismantling.  Sorry.

 

Ray.

Edited March 10, 2018 by R.White (see edit history)

[MikeC5]

All good advice above.  Taking off the oil pan isn't all that difficult since there is plenty of room to remove it, unlike on modern machinery where suspension parts would need to removed or the whole engine just to remove an oil pan.  You can buy the oil pan gasket and felts from Myers Early Dodge or Romar.

[R.White]

I found fitting the new crankshaft felts to the pan a hit and miss job.  You need to secure them with silicone and allow to set before replacing the pan and even then there is a risk that the rear one in particular could get dislodged as fitting the pan from underneath the car is such a fiddly job what with getting the oil level indicator rod up through the hole and making sure the oil pump drive is properly located. Not everyone finds fitting the pan that difficult however.  A trolly jack will come in useful.

 

Ray.

[MikeC5]

True dat!