1952 MG TD

[jp928]

The carbs in the foreground are H2 arent they? HS series have the float  bowl connected to jet assembly by a neoprene tube, and are less prone to leak than H types. Bowl cap is attached by 3 screws also. 

jp 26 Rover 9

 

[Luv2Wrench]

3 hours ago, jp928 said:

The carbs in the foreground are H2 arent they? HS series have the float  bowl connected to jet assembly by a neoprene tube, and are less prone to leak than H types. Bowl cap is attached by 3 screws also. 

jp 26 Rover 9

 

Yep, that's a typo.  Thanks for pointing that out!

 

[Bush Mechanic]

Luv2Wrench, it's looking good. Standard practice was to purchase a new lay-shaft and bearings, then cut down the old lay shaft, if you didn't have a shortened one handy. Getting the shim washers in place is the most difficult part, especially if you cut the shaft a few thou short. And holding your breath when sliding the third motion shaft spigot into the needle rollers. There is room for drama in that process. I'm sure you'll manage it with your usual aplomb.

I remember trying to cut one of those shafts with a hack-saw. Wrong! 

[r1lark]

Good progress Luv2!

 

Question, on the right side of the engine block, down low and at the front, is that a hexagonal core plug?

 

Been there done that with the dummy shaft for the tranny cluster. All the manual transmissions in my Studebakers (Warner T-96, T-86, T-90 3 speeds, even the Borg Warner T-10 4 speed) require that. I have some dowels that have been cut to length, luckily Warner sized their shafts in sizes that dowels are available in!

 

Keep up the good work. Good to see someone who makes fast and continuous progress, it gives me inspiration.

 

[Luv2Wrench]

Thanks guys!  I was sorting dreading the whole dummy shaft procedure but it turned out to be really easy.  The original layshaft and bearings were fine so I turned a 3/4" shaft down for the dummy shaft and managed to get it the right length.  The assembly lube is very tacky and it did a great job of holding everything in place.  I don't think it took 15-30 minutes once I got started.  The layshaft is chamfered on the end so that helps a lot and the holes in the casting are shallow enough that you can see in there and judge how close it is.  The only tricky part ended up being getting the special washers (bent top to funnel oil onto the shaft) to slide down into there slots and then slide back up in the slot.  Fortunately the hole in the casting is shallow enough that you can stick screwdriver in there and rotate the washer a bit such that it slides into place.  

 

r1lark, the hexagon shaped object on the right side of the block is the engine ID tag.   Here's a shot I have of it from when I originally went to look at the car.

 

 

Edited July 21, 2018 by Luv2Wrench (see edit history)

[Luv2Wrench]

The parts I was expecting Monday came today!!  I tackled the biggest issue first which meant taking the clutch and brake pedal out, inserting them into the "fume excluder" and putting them back in along with the spring for the brake pedal.  Only took 3 hours during which time I seriously considered the task impossible and contemplated a change of hobbies.    

 

I continued putting the gearbox together and noticed that the first/second gear selector shaft was pretty worn near the detents.  It was probably OK but I'm not really shooting for "probably OK" for this restoration.  Before placing another order and waiting another 5 days, I checked the parts car gearbox and was very pleased to see the shaft looked great.  I decided it was a good time to go through the rest of the gearbox from the parts car and get an idea of what it would need to be refurbished.  I plan on refurbishing both the engine and gearbox from the parts car after I'm done with the main restoration and put those up for sale.   Anyway.. got the shaft switched and everything buttoned up.  Decided to run through the gears before adding the safety wire, gaskets and closing up the box.  Noticed that the gear cluster had some pretty serious end float and noticed that I forgotten the last washer before the main bearing.  Oops... glad I checked though wish I just hadn't forgotten it.   Anyway... checked the amount of end float I had and compared that to the washer and yeah, going to need a thicker washer.   I'll locate that, take everything back apart, add the new washer and put it back together.  Hopefully it goes as smoothly as it did the first time.

 

[keiser31]

50 minutes ago, Luv2Wrench said:

The parts I was expecting Monday came today!!  I tackled the biggest issue first which meant taking the clutch and brake pedal out, inserting them into the "fume excluder" and putting them back in along with the spring for the brake pedal.  Only took 3 hours during which time I seriously considered the task impossible and contemplated a change of hobbies.    

 

I continued putting the gearbox together and noticed that the first/second gear selector shaft was pretty worn near the detents.  It was probably OK but I'm not really shooting for "probably OK" for this restoration.  Before placing another order and waiting another 5 days, I checked the parts car gearbox and was very pleased to see the shaft looked great.  I decided it was a good time to go through the rest of the gearbox from the parts car and get an idea of what it would need to be refurbished.  I plan on refurbishing both the engine and gearbox from the parts car after I'm done with the main restoration and put those up for sale.   Anyway.. got the shaft switched and everything buttoned up.  Decided to run through the gears before adding the safety wire, gaskets and closing up the box.  Noticed that the gear cluster had some pretty serious end float and noticed that I forgotten the last washer before the main bearing.  Oops... glad I checked though wish I just hadn't forgotten it.   Anyway... checked the amount of end float I had and compared that to the washer and yeah, going to need a thicker washer.   I'll locate that, take everything back apart, add the new washer and put it back together.  Hopefully it goes as smoothly as it did the first time.

 

We missed a thrust washer in an old Jeep transmission once and blew the synchros out three times before we realized what was missing.

[Luv2Wrench]

Measured the end float with a dial indicator and found a smidgen over 70 thou.   I went to the only local hardware store that actually has hardware and, much to my surprise, they had a 14 gauge bushing with the correct ID.  Hoping to get lucky again, I ran the dummy shaft in, heard the satisfying drop of the layshaft, tapped out the first motion bearing, then the main bearing and pulled the two pieces out.   Added the bushing and reassembled.  Less than 30 minutes start to finish.  That gave me a good feeling about getting the rest of the gearbox assembled.  Unfortunately that was the last of the things that went right.  It took another 3 hours get to get the tail shaft casting in place and the selector rods installed.  Those three hours would have been comical to someone watching but I didn't have the most fun.  At one point I was close to having everything together only to discover the woodruff key for the speedo gear amongst some other parts.  How it got out from between the shaft and gear and onto the far side of the workbench is a mystery.  I was having a devil of a time doing things in the correct order so I must have taken the speedo gear off at some point and forgotten about the woodruff key.   At another point I finally got the tail shaft casting in place and was trying to tighten the nuts inside when I realized it was impossible with the selector rods installed.  While removing the selector rods I managed to drop a piece down in the bottom.  While dumping that out I managed to lose one of the ball bearings.  After checking the floor a dozen times I found it in the gearbox stuck in a nook in the casting.  Fun stuff.  I did finally get the casting on and the rods in place.  I wore out my patience so I'll finish up the rest tomorrow. 

 

Here you can see the bump on the washer that slides in the boss in the casting.  Fortunately you can access this with a small screwdriver to make sure it is oriented correctly.

 

 

I found wrapping the wire (I'm using 14 gauge solid electrical wire) around the studs on one end, then lifting on the other, then wrapping and switching to the other side is an effective way of getting the layshaft into position.  Don't forget to wiggle the main shaft a little as you need to get the gears to mesh with the layshaft.

 

 

Here you can see the bushing I found.  It fits perfectly between the circlip on the shaft and the main bearing (it is the newer looking bushing next to the ball bearing on the upper right).  I did find the other bushing and the reason I missed it was because it had "spun" itself into a semi-bowl shape and I thought it went under the spring on the end of the tail shaft!!!   Even if I did understand where it went and flattened it out, it wasn't even 40 thou thick.

 

 

And finally... I touched up the paint on the tail shaft casting and it looks pretty similar to how it came from the factory.

 

Edited July 22, 2018 by Luv2Wrench (see edit history)

[hursst]

Great work, but I know the feeling of taking 3 hours to do 20 minute jobs.  That's every time I work on it.  Looking really good and still making fast progress.

[Bush Mechanic]

Gearboxes can certainly be very frustrating. And the first road test tells whether you got it right, or whether some part had a little too much wear.

It sounds like you are running off the workshop manual, without the exploded parts diagram. With odd-ball cars I like to work off the parts book diagrams, though they are not always easy to find. A good one will include codes for each bolt, nut, washer, etc, so that you soon recognise from the parts list the correct grade and size of fastenings stipulated by the factory. I find it satisfying to get it as near as possible to how it left the factory, (although I have no interest in entering concourse events). But I am less likely to leave washers, speedo drives etc out if I follow the parts diagrams. Especially with extended periods between tear-down and assembly. My memory is not what it once was, unfortunately.

Keep it up, you're going great.

[Luv2Wrench]

Yep, the parts diagram is key and the way to go. I have two different exploded parts diagram but they (I assume) were originally hand drawn and the detail isn't the greatest.   I think they made some changes as they went and the drawings likely didn't get updated.  I try to go through the parts diagram and arrange the parts before I start assembly.  I haven't had much issue with that technique until the gearbox.  The drawings are quite vague and there are enough parts that it overflows my brain.  I do a pretty good job taking pictures and putting items in marked zip-loc bags as well.  In the case of this latest screw-up,  the bearing and bushing where zip tied together but I ignored that because it didn't look like a bushing.   In hindsight that should have been my signal to stop and get that resolved.   But hey... now I know that gearbox backwards and forwards    

 

[jp928]

Once pulled down and rebuilt a Rover P4 box for layshaft bearings. Got it back together and installed, and ran the engine to check - the gearbox cover off (large floor panel - box comes out up into the interior). Wow , thats noisy, we thought. Pulled it down again, replaced the mainshaft bearings as well (had looked good), same result. Consulted experts - Oh, they are all noisy without the floor bolted down!

jp 26 Rover 9

[Bush Mechanic]

7 hours ago, jp928 said:

Once pulled down and rebuilt a Rover P4 box for layshaft bearings. Got it back together and installed, and ran the engine to check - the gearbox cover off (large floor panel - box comes out up into the interior). Wow , thats noisy, we thought. Pulled it down again, replaced the mainshaft bearings as well (had looked good), same result. Consulted experts - Oh, they are all noisy without the floor bolted down!

jp 26 Rover 9

 

Sounds very similar to a series 2 Landrover box. I listened to them for many thousands of miles, echoing through the alloy panels.

 

I make a point of not wearing my hearing aids around the cars. All those scary noises freak me out. They all sound great without the aids, though.  (Industrial deafness caused by Landrovers).

[jp928]

P4 box was almost identical to those used in LR, except maybe addition of 2nd synchro , and removal of freewheel. Here is my last LR - 1978 SIII, Air Portable, more commonly know as a Lightweight - under 1 ton so they could be dropped by parachute.

 

https://imgur.com/OArUPk0

 

jp 26 Rover 9

Edited July 26, 2018 by jp928 (see edit history)

[Bush Mechanic]

Wow!, Have not seen a LR with it's skirts up like that one. Mind, it's a long time since I looked, as well. I still have have a huge respect and affection for the series 2, having crossed and re-crossed Aus in them many times,  sometimes towing a second one on an 'A' bar behind. Rugged, reliable, and able to handle most terrain. But they were SLOW. 50 mph cruising speed, and as noisy as all get-out. But around 1978 I bought my first Toyota Landcruiser, and haven't looked back. Cruise all day at 70mph, with 1 1/4 ton on the back. Made a lot more sense, in this country.

My apologies, Luv2wrench, but we seem to have sidetracked a bit here. Still talking Pommie cars, though, you notice.

 

Mick.

[Spinneyhill]

Slightly further on that side track, I thought by 1978 LR had high mudguards on the front. That looks like an earlier one with lower mudguards. The one I drove at work in the '70s certainly had high 'guards, nearer the bonnet level, with higher headlights too.

[Bush Mechanic]

39 minutes ago, Spinneyhill said:

Slightly further on that side track, I thought by 1978 LR had high mudguards on the front. That looks like an earlier one with lower mudguards. The one I drove at work in the '70s certainly had high 'guards, nearer the bonnet level, with higher headlights too.

 Spinney, I think that one is a special body design for the forces. It looks like a series 3, by the hinges, but the guards and bonnet line are quite different from a regular LR.

[jp928]

These LR were a special lighter than usual body on SWB - note the hood/bonnet has a bevel at the front, more clearance under the fender/guards. There was also a toolbox at the left rear wheel in the top rear corner of the wheel well. There was a whole bunch all sold at once, and included some FFR (24V Fitted for Radio). The black squiggle on the door was where the National guard logo was over sprayed. Since women werent allowed to drive there at the time (only just happened now), wife only got drive when out in the sand, and she loved it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Rover_1/2_ton_Lightweight

Sorry for the hijack!

jp 26 Rover 9

[Luv2Wrench]

Now I want a Land Rover

 

[Luv2Wrench]

I had to take a break this week so I was looking to make some good progress today.  I wanted to get the gearbox buttoned up and then start rebuilding the carbs.  I got the safety wire done in the gearbox, got the gaskets in place and buttoned everything up.  I went to add the flange (piece at the end that links with the driveshaft) and ran into problems.  The flange goes into the tail casting with a felt seal that goes around it.  Unfortunately there's no way to get that piece on the tail shaft, into the casting and also inside the felt seal.  This seal is just too small, it is meant to be stretched around the flange.  This meant I had to break the gearbox back down again.  All that safety wire, gaskets, etc, all came out.  I had to take the tail casting off, stick the flange in it, then shove the felt seal down through the casting, around the flange and into the slot in the casting.   It appears the very last piece that you'd think to install actually goes in first.  I read pretty carefully through the workshop manual and a couple of websites on rebuilding the gearbox and I don't recall reading that tidbit of information.  Oh well, it is together now and waiting to go in the car.  The whole process took about 4 hours so I really didn't get anything else done.  Feels like a lost week so I'm hoping to make some progress next week.  I did get in a nice batch of parts I was waiting on so hopefully it will go smoothly. 

 

[JV Puleo]

It looks to me as if you're going at warp speed... making the whole project look downright easy (which I know it isn't).

[Luv2Wrench]

Thanks Joe, ordering parts sure is easier than making them!!

 

[Luv2Wrench]

Not much to report.  Ran the brake lines and fuel line, hopefully didn't get them crossed.    Identified more brass washers I was missing and ordered those along with other small various items that I can't figure out how I didn't know I would need.   Getting ready to replace the throttle shaft bushings in the carb, should have the bushings mid-week.   I think I have the rest of the parts to complete the carb overhaul but I thought that already, twice. 

[hursst]

I feel your pain.  I ordered a new throttle shaft, as the old one is very worn.  The shaft is too long and does not have a hole drilled for the idle stop lever, nor does the idle stop lever itself have a hole in it to pin it to the shaft.  I took it to a machine shop to have it cut to length and the holes drilled.  I've never seen a group of people so confused by such a simple job.  I guarantee they will screw it up, so I'll probably have to take it elsewhere.  Will end up losing at least 3 weeks of time for 5 minutes of work if it was at a competent shop.

 

Please post photos of the carbs when you're finished!

 

-Chris

[Luv2Wrench]

Yeah, just got the same shaft, way too long, no hole for the idle stop lever, etc, etc.  I did manage to ream out the old bushings and press new ones in and the shaft is nice and snug now so I'm pretty happy about that.   I won't be getting any work done this weekend as I am on a old machine tool hunt.  I've found a few interesting items and I'll be driving about an 8 hour loop to look at them.  Hopefully I can bring home some goodies.  An old Racine power hacksaw is target number one and I feel good about that one.  A very old Cincinnati Tool Grinder/Cutter is another target but I think it may be too far gone.  Should be a fun trip.

[Mike Macartney]

Hi, I would just like to say how much I am enjoying your reports on the MG TC restoration. Having recently documented a series of reports for the MG Car Club V8 Register website, on my MBG roadster V8 rebuild, I appreciate the amount of work that goes into planning the restoration, the work involved and report writing. Keep up the good work.

 

Mike

[Luv2Wrench]

Hey thanks Mike!  Please do post a link to you MGB V8 rebuild as I'm sure everyone here would love to see it.

[Mike Macartney]

I was surprised me to see that the TD suspension was very similar to the MGB suspension. Here is the attachment to my MGB V8 rebuild

http://www.v8register.net/profileV8RebuildMacartney.htm Report 161 is an index to the reports.

This week I have been helping a friend in our village with his MGTD which he has owned since the 1960's, the car was 12 years old when he bought it. He is having problems with 'heat soak' and the coolant boiling when the engine is switched off. In the UK we have some unusually hot weather at the present time, which is not helping his cooling problem. His TD is much more sophisticated car than the PA and TA models that I have driven previously.

Mike

[Luv2Wrench]

Trip went smoothly though I didn't bring home the tool cutter/grinder.  It was pretty far gone and the power hacksaw weighed a good bit more than I thought so I was running close on weight.   Had the grinder been in better shape I probably would have brought part of it back and then driven back up to get the rest of it and (if I'm being honest...) drag home the Kempsmith horizontal mill disaster.  I wouldn't be surprised if I do go back up there and get both of them but for now my resolve remains strong.  I did find a Hardinge Cataract bench lathe, a B&S magnetic check, bunch of hold-downs, lathe dogs, stainless bar stock, etc, etc.  It was a great trip.   The lathe looks worse in the pictures than it is.  It was stored in a basement that had small streams running through it so the humidity was 100% and thus a lot of surface rust. 

 

(update 3/1/2020). So 18 months later my resolve failed... I went back and got the Cincinnati Tool Cutter & Grinder.

 

Edited March 2, 2020 by Luv2Wrench (see edit history)

[Luv2Wrench]

I did manage to get the throttle shaft completed.  I had some 4-40 screws that I was able to use to screw the old shaft to the new shaft.  With them together I could put it in the vise and then adjust the rotation of the shaft such that the drill went clean through the old hole.  Then it was just a matter of tightening the vise, switch the drill for a center drill, moving the cross slide over a bit, starting the hole in the new shaft, switching back to the drill and finishing it out.  There was a little bit of eye-ball work needed but it went smoothly.  With the old shaft connected to the new shaft it made it trivial to cut the new shaft to length.  I media blasted the bodies (at low PSI as suggested by Bush Mechanic) and cleaned up some of the other parts.  I silver soldered the holes in the worn holes in the levers (as suggested by 1912Staver) and drilled them back out.   Still a lot more to do but moving along.

 

Edited August 17, 2018 by Luv2Wrench (see edit history)

[Laughing Coyote]

Good stuff Jeff.  We don't have very much of the old iron around here like that. I did manage to pick up my Bridgeport mill today from a company that is selling off 5 of them.  They are making room for 4 new 5 axis CNC machines.  It's a 2003 model and is in great shape with the longer table.  Came with a DRO, collets, and a Kurt vise.  Sold my old worn out 1962 Bridgeport model to automotive repair shop.  Good luck on your new toys.

[Luv2Wrench]

One other small task completed as well.  The rear axle has check straps and those check straps have a strip of rubber in the bottom where they go around the axle.  Obviously the rubber in mine was long gone.  Unfortunately Moss doesn't see replacement rubber rather they sell new check straps for about $45 a piece.  That's probably a great deal if you don't already have the strap, but for just the rubber and rivets it seemed like a lot.  It took forever to find split rivets that had a big enough head but I finally found them and they worked perfectly.  Another small task complete.

 

[Luv2Wrench]

1 minute ago, Laughing Coyote said:

Good stuff Jeff.  We don't have very much of the old iron around here like that. I did manage to pick up my Bridgeport mill today from a company that is selling off 5 of them.  They are making room for 4 new 5 axis CNC machines.  It's a 2003 model and is in great shape with the longer table.  Came with a DRO, collets, and a Kurt vise.  Sold my old worn out 1962 Bridgeport model to automotive repair shop.  Good luck on your new toys.

 

Wow, that's fantastic!!  A 2003 Bridgeport, Kurt vise, DRO and collets... simply amazing!   The area I live in is pretty much an old iron desert as well.   It is rare to find old tools and when you do they're usually back in the mountains and have been seriously neglected.   I've yet to find a vertical mill.  When I first started looking for one I saw a mint Index mill for $850.  Since I had just started looking and had no idea what a mill was worth I didn't know it snap it right up.  I had my chance and missed it.  I kick myself for that pretty often.

 

[hursst]

Jeff, we both did the same exact project yesterday, except I had to farm my throttle shafts out.  Great work!  Nice to have all those great tools, so you don't have to deal with some of the bozos I've had to deal with.  My first machine shop drilled the hole too far away (so the shaft and throttle plate would move laterally in the bore) and he drilled the hole in the idle stop lever at the wrong angle, so destroyed both parts.  Found another machine shop that did the job perfectly in 3 hours.  The first place took 3 weeks and destroyed all my parts.

 

Again, fantastic work.  Now I can start copying what you are doing since you've just about passed me by.

 

-Chris

[Luv2Wrench]

1 hour ago, hursst said:

Jeff, we both did the same exact project yesterday, except I had to farm my throttle shafts out.  Great work!  Nice to have all those great tools, so you don't have to deal with some of the bozos I've had to deal with.  My first machine shop drilled the hole too far away (so the shaft and throttle plate would move laterally in the bore) and he drilled the hole in the idle stop lever at the wrong angle, so destroyed both parts.  Found another machine shop that did the job perfectly in 3 hours.  The first place took 3 weeks and destroyed all my parts.

 

Again, fantastic work.  Now I can start copying what you are doing since you've just about passed me by.

 

-Chris

 

You've been doing a great job leading, I vote you stay in front!

 

[Luv2Wrench]

Got a little time in today and managed to get the carb parts cleaned up.  Unfortunately when I took the carbs apart I didn't take a lot of pictures.  I figured I'd be swapping in the new parts and putting them back together almost immediately.  Life interrupted and now I'm looking at a puzzle.   I've got a reasonable exploded parts diagram and a few pictures so I should be able to manage.  Is is typical that the *one* time I didn't take a lot of pictures would be the time that this happened. 

 

Edited August 19, 2018 by Luv2Wrench (see edit history)

[Mike Macartney]

I have this book which I could photo copy of any drawings you need. I recently used it when I overhauled the SU carbs on Arkley.

However many photos and notes you have taken, there is always one photo you didn't take!

[Luv2Wrench]

Pretty close to being finished.  I needed to plate a couple of linkage pieces so I'll add those tomorrow.  I have no idea if I did it right or if they will work, but I was able to follow all the steps (sucarbs.co.uk is a great source along with Joe's site) and was fairly confident that I was doing what the directions said to do.   I'm cautiously optimistic that'll they'll work with a little tuning. 

 

[Luv2Wrench]

Done!!!  or so I thought.  Mounted these guys on the engine to see how they looked and noticed that I have the linkages backwards..   I'll pull it apart tomorrow and swap them, will need to go get 5000 small stainless cotter pins.  Those things are miserable to work with. 

 

Edited August 21, 2018 by Luv2Wrench (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

That really looks good - and while cotter pins may be a headache to work with but they make the job look REALLY finished. Practically everyone left them out.

 

I think I would have used that cast aluminum accessory valve cover. I had a new one years ago that I was given by the parts department where I worked as they were no longer an MG dealer. I suspect it was a dealer supplied option. At the time, I was told it was for a TD although I used it on an MGA. They also gave me a NOS set of TD hubcaps for the steel wheels.

Edited August 21, 2018 by JV Puleo (see edit history)