Randalll Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 Hey Guy's I have a question that most may think is stupid but please help if you can and I apologize in advance. I have attached a picture of a carb thats just like the one on m y 63 Riv. What is the port that I have circled do? I have read a few post that say not to plug it but I wanted a second opinion and some understanding as to what it does and why or why not I should plug it. Again thank you in advance for all your help. Randall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 Hi Randall, That nipple is for a filtered air source for the hot air choke system. A rubber to metal line originates at the nipple and runs to the bottom of the exhaust manifold, thru the manifold and back up to the choke housing. Hope this helps, Tom Mooney 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randalll Posted March 5, 2018 Author Share Posted March 5, 2018 Thanks Tom, I really appreciate the help. The reason I am asking is that after about 20 mins of driving my 63 Riv starts cutting out at low speeds like driving around town, almost or exactly like its vapor locking. I was wondering if that port NOT being hooked up to my exhaust manifold could be causing this. Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbking Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 As Tom mentioned, this tube was to allow FILTERED air to be used for the heat to the choke. The automatic choke housing is connected to an internal vacuum source (you can follow the passageways if the carb is apart), and if the tube is not attached, then unfiltered air would enter the carburetor through the automatic choke. This should not impact the way the engine is running, assuming that the choke is functioning normally. To check, allow the engine to warm to full operating temperature, shut off the engine, remove the air cleaner, and observe the geometry of the choke butterfly (flapper). It should be completely vertical. If not, troubleshoot the choke. If so, you have other problems. Cutting out at low speeds when hot COULD be fuel related; and it could just as easily be ignition related, especially if an electronics conversion had been done. Electronics don't like heat (well, neither do I, for that matter ) Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randalll Posted March 5, 2018 Author Share Posted March 5, 2018 Thank you Sir. I will keep you posted. There have been no electronic conversions on this car, however I am considering HEI Ignition. Any opinion's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrlforfun Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 OK Randall: Ya gotta diagnose your issue. Fuel? Easy to Drop the tank and remove caca. On a 1963 car this would not be a "scientific diagnosis" but a routine precaution. Then you can blow the lines out with air and isolate each part of the fuel system to make sure things are workin' and flowin'. Next, the electrical. Again, isolate each component and check for operation. I did have a 64 Riv that was cutting out going up a hill. I did the entire fuel system, which i figured I'd have to do anyway due to the fact that it was a 64 and in a long hibernation. Everything functioned as it was supposed to. After checking the electrical system I found everything was also operational. Still cuttin' out. The problem? The wire from the horn relay (the junction box where the battery cable connects) to the starter was arcing against the exhaust manifold. Sometimes it's easy. Sometimes it ain't that easy. Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randalll Posted March 6, 2018 Author Share Posted March 6, 2018 Great feedback Mitch. Thank you very much. I will keep you all posted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randalll Posted March 7, 2018 Author Share Posted March 7, 2018 (edited) Ok, so a family friend and mechanic told me that its a vacuum leak and its probably coming from under the intake manifold, that there is a "freeze plug" on the bottom of the intake that will rust out and cause a vacuum leak. Has anyone heard of this? Edited March 7, 2018 by Randalll (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Very common problem. It will also make exhaust noise if rotted out as exhaust heats the intake. Also VERY COMMON is the steel gasket under the carb. is missing causing exhaust into the intake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randalll Posted March 7, 2018 Author Share Posted March 7, 2018 Thank you for the quick response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Forgot to also mention. IF the heat riser valve on the right outlet of the exhaust manifold is stuck closed it will OVERHEAT the intake & cause the fuel to boil in the carb. which could also be a problem. Tom T. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 3 hours ago, Randalll said: Ok, so a family friend and mechanic told me that its a vacuum leak and its probably coming from under the intake manifold, that there is a "freeze plug" on the bottom of the intake that will rust out and cause a vacuum leak. Has anyone heard of this? It is common for this freeze plug to rot. However, the plug is in the exhaust crossover passage and should not cause a vacuum leak, only exhaust leak/noise. Tom 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randalll Posted March 7, 2018 Author Share Posted March 7, 2018 Problem solved! I pulled the intake manifold and replaced the exhaust crossover plug and car is running great again. Next issue: I seem to still have an issue with the power brake booster, I thought that replacing the crossover plug was causing the loss in vacuum to the booster, but as Tom said, it's not a vacuum problem its an exhaust leak. So why is my pedal still hard as a rock and hard to stop. These issue's seemed to have happened at the same time. Could my booster have failed coincidentally at the same time? And thank you all for your help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randalll Posted March 10, 2018 Author Share Posted March 10, 2018 Ok so I thought it was problem solved, however it's not. It's doing the same thjing it did before replacing the exhaust crossover plug (which had completly blown out) on the bottom of the intake manifold. So you would think that would at least help but no it doesn't. It runs fine in park, revs nice, no sign of hesitation whatsoever. Then the minute you put it in gear and drive away it falls on it's face, spudering. If it is a long road I can feather my way through it and once I get up to 35 40mph its fine and runs good. Also this and loss of power brakes happened at the same time. Any help is very much appreciated. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 check the steel plate under the carb 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randalll Posted March 10, 2018 Author Share Posted March 10, 2018 There is no steel plate under carb. Never has been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randalll Posted March 10, 2018 Author Share Posted March 10, 2018 Could it be the Coil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 Just now, Randalll said: There is no steel plate under carb. Never has been. Then perhaps the absence of the steel plate has let the exhaust gasses, that are used to warm the carburetor, corrode the base of the carburetor to the point where the carb won't seal against the intake manifold. Exhaust gasses and cast aluminum are not compatible. There WAS a stainless plate between the carburetor and the fiber gasket when the engine was installed at the factory. Why there is not one there now is anyone's guess. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randalll Posted March 10, 2018 Author Share Posted March 10, 2018 I see. Thank you for the information. Just had carb rebuilt. Used the fiber gasket. Do you know where a man could find such plate? Could the motor run fine in park but not in drive because of this plate? Would it also cause the power brakes to go out? Sorry I know its a lot of questions, I just don't want to keep throwing money at it to see what sticks. I have replaced the points, condenser, rotor, cap, and plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randalll Posted March 10, 2018 Author Share Posted March 10, 2018 And thank you all for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randalll Posted March 10, 2018 Author Share Posted March 10, 2018 Did the 425's come with this plate as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbking Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 (edited) The Carter part number for the stainless steel baffle plate that should be located between the carburetor and the intake manifold is 186-106. I don't have a Buick Master Parts Manual, so cannot cross this to a Buick part number. Lets think about your issue: You posted the issue occurs after maybe 20 minutes, so it sounds heat related. If the only issue were a vacuum leak, it would occur as soon as the auto choke came off (vertical position). So, start with acquiring the stainless steel plate (it keeps raw exhaust from contacting the carburetor). If the plate does not solve the issue, next would be to test the automatic choke for function. (Remember, you may have multiple problems). After either confirming that the choke is functioning correctly (or repairing if not functioning correctly), the next step would be a test of the ignition system. DON'T JUST GUESS THE COIL IS BAD. Ignition systems can be tested! Replacing a good coil (or any other component) with a new component MAY put a worse component in the system (I am not in love with modern off-shore parts); and at best is going to lighten your wallet. The power brake problem MAY be part of the running problem, or it MAY be a separate issue. Jon. Edited March 10, 2018 by carbking (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randalll Posted March 10, 2018 Author Share Posted March 10, 2018 Thank you I will try your suggestions and keep you all posted. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 I carry the gasket & stainless plate in stock. PM for details. Tom T. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randalll Posted March 17, 2018 Author Share Posted March 17, 2018 (edited) Quick question guy's, I have two ground straps coming off the firewall. The one on the passenger side goes to either the exhaust manifold or engine head(Can't remember), and the one on the drivers side firewall is not connected to anything. Where does it attach? the engine or chassis? Would that cause a short? Also these are very thin/small ground straps, so my question is are there only two small ground straps for the entire car besides the battery cable (which is actually attached to the power steering bracket, not sure if that's right either)? And finally would it just be smarter to run a new ground strap from the negative battery post to the body so I know it's grounded? I still can't get this car to run well, in fact the problem is getting worse and I can't tell if it's Fuel, Vacuum, or Electrical that's causing this. As always, thank you in advance. Edited March 17, 2018 by Randalll (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 Those ground straps just carry the ground from the neg. post on the battery into the body. The battery cable bolts to the power steering pump bracket. The straps you mention carry that ground into the body. I'm not exactly sure which engine bolt is used to bolt to but just connect the engine block to the body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 10 hours ago, Randalll said: Quick question guy's, I have two ground straps coming off the firewall. The one on the passenger side goes to either the exhaust manifold or engine head(Can't remember), and the one on the drivers side firewall is not connected to anything. Where does it attach? the engine or chassis? Would that cause a short? Also these are very thin/small ground straps, so my question is are there only two small ground straps for the entire car besides the battery cable (which is actually attached to the power steering bracket, not sure if that's right either)? And finally would it just be smarter to run a new ground strap from the negative battery post to the body so I know it's grounded? I still can't get this car to run well, in fact the problem is getting worse and I can't tell if it's Fuel, Vacuum, or Electrical that's causing this. As always, thank you in advance. Originally, the ground straps extend from the firewall to studded head bolts at the back of the block. Obviously there are many paths and methods to ground the body but the original pathway is from body thru the ground straps to engine and finally thru the ground cable back to battery. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randalll Posted March 17, 2018 Author Share Posted March 17, 2018 Quote Thank you, So you do not need a dedicated ground strap from body to frame? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 The bolts through the body mounts will ground the body to the frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randalll Posted March 17, 2018 Author Share Posted March 17, 2018 Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 22 hours ago, Randalll said: No. The pathway I described grounds the body back to the battery. So if your concern is body ground there is no need to involve the frame. I have never experienced an issue with frame ground in a first gen Riv but if you are concerned with grounding the frame you can do as Buick did, in `66, and run a ground cable/wire from the negative post or battery cable to a point on the frame. In `65 there is also a ground wire from the negative battery cable to the voltage regulator mounting fastener which also helps to provide a pathway to battery ground. This ground wire is often eliminated when the battery cable is changed. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randalll Posted March 19, 2018 Author Share Posted March 19, 2018 OK, here's an update... I found and installed the plate under carb and gasket, new points, condenser, rotor, cap, wires, and coil. Now I can't even get it to start. I have spark coming out of the coil but not out of the plug wires. I do have sufficient fuel going into the rebuilt Carter and coming out/ into the manifold. I do not have a heat valve on passenger exhaust so I know its not closed or the problem. STUMPED! As always I really appreciate your and any input at all. Randall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 5 hours ago, Randalll said: OK, here's an update... I found and installed the plate under carb and gasket, new points, condenser, rotor, cap, wires, and coil. Now I can't even get it to start. I have spark coming out of the coil but not out of the plug wires. I do have sufficient fuel going into the rebuilt Carter and coming out/ into the manifold. I do not have a heat valve on passenger exhaust so I know its not closed or the problem. STUMPED! As always I really appreciate your and any input at all. Randall If you have spark coming out of the coil and not the wires there is an issue in the rotor, cap or wires. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randalll Posted March 21, 2018 Author Share Posted March 21, 2018 Hello Guy's, So one thing I found is that I only have about 5 volts going to my coil. Do I need to hook up a resister wire? Are 63's 12v systems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randalll Posted May 4, 2018 Author Share Posted May 4, 2018 SOLVED: First, many thanks to all who participated in helping me through this issue, especially RivNut, a plethora of information. I am writing to say that I have solved this issue. I read many articles from other people that described my exact issue but many of those post had no final answer or solution, this was a bit frustrating and I know what works for me may not work for everyone but hopefully this will help narrow down your specific issue. If your issue sounds anything like this one, it may be one or a combination of these three things: 1. My coil was arcing on a steel braided line that was running across the back of the Intake Manifold-(Check at night to look for spark arcing across anything) 2. Freeze plug under intake manifold is rotted or completely blown out. (easy to replace) 3. Bad points and condenser- This was caused by the coil arcing so could have just replaced P/C but I switched to Petronix and the consistency makes world of difference. This car went from running ok to not running at all to running better than I ever expected. In between all of this I had mechanics tell me everything from it could be a single bad wire- to -my motor was no good and needed a complete rebuild. My advice is to take the time to actually correctly diagnose the problem and do some simple test to narrow down the culprit before tearing the who;e engine back out. I hope this helps the next guy who's as frustrated as I was. Good luck. Randall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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