Painting a Car

[Michael C Wauhop]

I was just going to ask for some advice I have a 1955 Packard 400 Hardtop. It is a  rust free car from the state of Arizona I bought over 15 years ago . The car has been garage kept since i bought it. Since my employer is settling our work contract and we are expecting retro pay I think now is the time to paint the car .Can anyone on the forum recommend a good body man who doesn't charge an arm and a leg? I am not looking to win 1st place at Hershey but I do want the car to look good. In the Philadelphia Pa area. I should say i want to spend under 10K.

[Restorer32]

You won't get much of a paint job for under $10k unless you have it painted without disassembling it and use low quality paint.

[AJFord54]

Michael - While I'm sure you were just giving us your "maximum" price to spend, it reminded me of my friend who had engine problems with his boat.  He took it to the dealer and asked "Is it going to run $500, $1000 or $1500?  It ended up costing him $3400.  Only point I make is that he opened up the guy to thinking he had lots of money to spend.  Obviously, poor negotiating skills on his part.

I just got a quote from a great body man in our small town on A VW bus.  He told me $3000 to $4000 sight unseen with the high number being based upon possible rust or minor dents.  Point being, smaller towns many times have lower costs and you might save some money by researching a bit outside of Philadelphia.  I think $10,000 is very expensive, unless you have lots of problems that have to be corrected.

[vermontboy]

The biggest cost associated with painting is in the preparation - disassembly, masking, etc. What is the condition of the paint right now - can it be buffed to a nice patina? If there is surface rust it changes things considerably,.

 

If you are just looking for something that looks as good as the factory finish it makes it a lot easier - if you are not changing color are the door jambs, underside of the hood and trunk, etc acceptable as is with some clean up?

 

If all it needs is a respray of the outer body think about doing a lot of the work yourself - taking off the bumpers and trim, door handles, etc. really make a difference both in the appearance of the finished product as well as the cost. Any body shop will probably insist on doing the final sanding, priming and masking themselves but if you make the job easier for them the cost will be less. Do talk to them before doing anything, however.

 

Just my two cents - weeks of prep and a day in the spray booth......

[Xander Wildeisen]

I really like the look of dull chrome and trim on a fresh paint job, or when you can see that the door jams were skipped. Old weather stripping can set off some tones that are seen in the right light on some colors. Tape lines, if placed in the right spot, can highlight body lines. Be very careful in your quest to find a nice paint job for little money. Think about what you are asking a professional painter to do. Pay close attention to all of the comments you get from people on this question. This is the one area that I have seen more people loose their desire to be involved in old cars. Do not stumble into restoration/build costs, you will get what you pay for when it comes to body work/paint. Ask a lot of questions, find quality people, stay on top of your project and know what you are going to get for your budget. This hobby looses/turns off to many people because they do not understand what costs can mount up when you start to pull a car apart. You can just mask it off and shoot it. And when it is done, it will look like it was just masked off and shot. There is a reason the unfinished look is so big in the hobby/industry. I say paint it, love seeing fixed up old cars on the road. Just do your home work.

[Restorer32]

Well stated Mr. X.  Figure $15-$20k for  show quality paint. This would entail stripping the entire car to bare metal, removing bumpers, lights, doors, hood, trunk lid and fenders. Just the cost of materials including epoxy primers, sealers and good quality paint would be $2500-$3000 depending on color. It's a simple concept that people seem not to fully grasp. If you pay for less than perfect than the final product will be less than perfect. How much imperfection are you happy with? Do you want to apologize for the deteriorated but original paint or do you want to apologize for a poor quality paint job?

[Wheelmang]

I guess the flip side question of this conversation is - Is it the original paint? If so as someone else has already alluded to, maybe you should just look at original paint restoration. Just saying.

[Guest]

A friend of mine was quoted a couple of months (a lower price because of doing it between other jobs) and 3-4 thousand dollars about ten years ago.  The final job was $24,000 and over two years.  The final amount was not a surprise to him as he visited the shop regularly and all the extra work was approved by him as the job went along.  From a simple mask and spray it became a disassemble, strip to metal, repair of all defects (many of them from the factory) and paint.  The car is absolutely stunning and was the job he really wanted.

[Matt Harwood]

You can save some money by eliminating a lot of hourly work that the paint shop must do--remove trim, glass, and rubber. Do as much disassembly as possible yourself before delivering it to the paint shop. Bear in mind that you'll also be doing the reassembly so pay attention to how it all fits together. I don't think many body shops will want you to do your own prep work, so leave that to them, but if you can get it stripped down and minimize the amount of labor they'll need to do in order to begin their real job, you'll save some money. Not a lot, but some.

 

As everyone has pointed out, a paint job is one place where it will be obvious that you cut corners (all the things that Xander mentions). However, I'll also point out that most people aren't really keen enough to notice those things and few people look that closely, so if you can live with them, perhaps 80% of the public won't notice and will think it's perfect. You'll get experienced hobbyists and experts spotting those things and it'll hurt you if you have the car judged, but if that doesn't matter you can save a few bucks. Go to a few local cruise nights and really look at the cars there (not an AACA or Packard show, where the quality tends to be higher--a local casual show where everyone brings anything). You will see VERY wavy bodywork, lots of bondo, sloppy masking, irregular surfaces, bad gaps, and all kinds of other maladies. This is what inexpensive paint looks like. As you'll see at those shows, most guys don't seem to notice or care, or are merely happy that they got something shiny on the cheap. The question is: can you live with those flaws?

 

With paint jobs, you typically get what you pay for. You can sometimes cheat it in your favor by working with the painter or finding a guy who works part-time in his garage, but there's no way around the fact that it takes a lot of time and the materials can be expensive.

[Xander Wildeisen]

Bad fitting doors, can also work well with open cowl vents. Every car should be looked at for what it is, what you want it to be, what you can afford and what work you can do yourself. This is where quality dealers come in. There will always be a owner that can do the work, some times it is best for a hobbyist to cash out of a project, kick in the money that they were willing to put into the project. And get more for their money by buying a better car from a quality dealer. Builders should talk to customers about what is the best use of the customers money, and work with quality dealers. Some people should not go down the road of building/restoring a car. Not because they can/can't/should not. Because they do not have the funds to see a project through. If the project goes south because choices/options were not presented to the customer. That will turn off the customer, and everyone he/she talks to, when they share his/her bitter experiences with the classic/custom car industry. And the same goes for customers who think they can use someone by holding the work over a shops head. Want the job? This is what I will pay! What do you really think you will end up with?

[alsancle]

You can easily go through 3-4k in just materials very quickly.  That is a big car. 

 

Just wondering,  what does the car look like now?   Could you post a picture?     For me,  a faded but straight older paint job is more attractive than a flashy, but lower quality new job.

[Bhigdog]

Paint is one of the things where you really get what you pay for. You have to decide what level of quality will fill your needs. That can run from giving your car a nice compounding, detailing, and wax job and calling it "good to go" to a high end resto shop's $25,000.  If you get a few names of local shops visit them and look at finished jobs and talk to the car's owners. Worst case scenario is paying top dollar an getting a crappy job. It happens. Be careful out there.........Bob

[joe_padavano]

I paint my own cars.  Quality materials for a simple paint job (not any bodywork or rust repair) will easily cost me $1500-$2000.  A quality paint job is at least 90% labor.  Do the math and you'll find that $10K is about the minimum. 

Edited February 27, 2018 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[Paul Dobbin]

A good Body Shop with a good painter can give you a show car look within your budget.  Body work in preparation to paint will add to your costs.   I agree with the idea of talking to other car guys at local shows and find where they had their work done, then visit those shops.   Don't mention "Restoration"

because what your are describing is a repaint.

If your car is a drivable , make appointments with a few shops for  "in 'person" estimates. Without seeing the car they're just selling you a dream.  I also agree that by removing bumpers and other trim, you and the shop will get a better idea of what's involved.

Materials costs can make a big difference in the cost too.  Red cars are more expensive in material costs,  than other colors.  Base coat clear coat is really two paint jobs.  I like Acrylic enamel with a hardener, buffed out looks like lacquer and is very durable, costs less too.

Cheap is not always good, but expensive is no guarantee of satisfaction either.  

when you find a shop you feel good about, return often to see other projects as they complete them.

Good luck & have fun!

[kingrudy]

Hello Michael,

I just got my car back from a "restoration shop" who said that he would only guarantee the paint if he disassembled the car. He did poor work and I am doing much of the work myself to have the work done again. To choose a painter the next time I will make sure that the company has a paint booth and can allow me to speak to customer that had their car painted at least two years prior. I want to know how long the process took (paint can take days to cure) and how satisfied the companies customer were. If the job is done correctly this will increase the value of the car, but I wouldn't expect to get the entire price of the paint job when you do sell the car.

Best of luck these Packard's are beautiful cars.

 

Mike Nelson

1940 Buick Super Coupe

[Brass is Best]

Another thought. If you ever go to sell the car you will wish you had done a good paint job. Every corner you cut will be seen by perspective buyers. In the end it will hurt the sale of the car. 

[Joe in Canada]

You can always take it to a shop in Canada for the 30% savings in $$ exchange. If you can get in as there are many cars from the US being done up here now. I know the better shops now have a waiting list.

[39BuickEight]

Not a single recommendation for the guy to call in the Philadelphia area?

 

Well, I can't give one either, but a car can certainly be painted, and painted well, for under $10,000.  You can get that figure down to $5000 in many places if you do the everything but the actual painting yourself.  Sure a person can also spend $20,000+.  From the tone of your opening post, it appears you want a really nice looking car, and that can easily be done for less than $10,000.  Hopefully someone will give you some leads.  It was mentioned going to a local show and asking around--that's a great idea.

 

Is there a Cars and Coffee there?  We have one in Lexington, KY the first Saturday of every month, so I would imagine a place 10x the size would also have one.  Just stop by and do some research with vehicles owners.

[Restorer32]

Everyone knows a guy who knows a guy who can do a show quality paint job for under $10K but strangely that guy can seldom actually be found. As far as doing most of the work yourself it is often better to do what you do best so you can afford to pay someone to do what they do best. 

[Bhigdog]

I paint my own cars and do a respectable job. In the past I've "shot" a couple of cars for friends for free if they did all the labor and bought all the materials. That said, if I was in business there is no way I would let the customer be ANY part of the process. A good job requires absolute control of EVERY part of the process..............Bob

[JACK M]

I know a guy that promises a super paint job, just buy him a drink and the best price is just before he gets 86ed.

[Restorer32]

We will only paint a car if we are allowed to strip it to bare metal. Now and then someone will bring us a project where the car was stripped to bare metal and primered. Even then we strip off that primer. We want to know exactly what goes onto the car, from bare steel to finished polish. I wish we could paint a car for under $10k. We would have an inexhaustable customer base. Have you noticed that very, very few body shops will do overall paint jobs anymore? Sit down with a pencil and paper and write down your estimate of the time it takes to perform each phase of the paint job. Disassembly and begin stripping paint 40 hrs? Minor body work, finish stripping paint and mask and prep for primer 40 hrs? Carefully sand body and apply filler where necessary, mask again for 2nd primer 40 hrs? Final sanding to perfect finish for paint, thoroughly clean away sanding dust, clean up paint booth, mask entire car, carefully wipe down to remove all finger prints etc and mix and spray base coat, 3 coats. 60 hrs? Let dry, thoroughly clean again and prep for clear, 3 coats. Begin sanding with 800 grit to remove any imperfections, follow up with 1200 then machine polish. Prep and paint doors, trunk lid, hood, wheels? 60hrs? Now, reassemble entire car. Remember that bad light socket you discovered when disassembling the car? Repair that and finish final assembly and panel adjustment. Another 40 hrs? Let's see....40 +40 +40 + 60 +60 +40 = 280 hrs. Assume a shop rate of $50/hr. and we are at $14,000 plus $2500 for materials. Final price $17,500. More if an early car with wire wheels or hood louvers. Even more if two tone. We recently paid $970/gallon for the right red for a '60s car we painted. It all comes down to "The nicer the nice the higher the price".

[joe_padavano]

5 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

We will only paint a car if we are allowed to strip it to bare metal. Now and then someone will bring us a project where the car was stripped to bare metal and primered. Even then we strip off that primer. We want to know exactly what goes onto the car, from bare steel to finished polish. I wish we could paint a car for under $10k. We would have an inexhaustable customer base. Have you noticed that very, very few body shops will do overall paint jobs anymore? Sit down with a pencil and paper and write down your estimate of the time it takes to perform each phase of the paint job. Disassembly and begin stripping paint 40 hrs? Minor body work, finish stripping paint and mask and prep for primer 40 hrs? Carefully sand body and apply filler where necessary, mask again for 2nd primer 40 hrs? Final sanding to perfect finish for paint, thoroughly clean away sanding dust, clean up paint booth, mask entire car, carefully wipe down to remove all finger prints etc and mix and spray base coat, 3 coats. 60 hrs? Let dry, thoroughly clean again and prep for clear, 3 coats. Begin sanding with 800 grit to remove any imperfections, follow up with 1200 then machine polish. Prep and paint doors, trunk lid, hood, wheels? 60hrs? Now, reassemble entire car. Remember that bad light socket you discovered when disassembling the car? Repair that and finish final assembly and panel adjustment. Another 40 hrs? Let's see....40 +40 +40 + 60 +60 +40 = 280 hrs. Assume a shop rate of $50/hr. and we are at $14,000 plus $2500 for materials. Final price $17,500. More if an early car with wire wheels or hood louvers. Even more if two tone. We recently paid $970/gallon for the right red for a '60s car we painted. It all comes down to "The nicer the nice the higher the price".

 

That's an excellent summary, thanks.  I'd argue that $50/hr is on the low end for shop rates.

[mtnchev]

Michael:  Looks like you got a lot of answers for one question.  Each of those answers make one or more valid points.  My advice is to really look at every part of the car, including the underneath, and list every imperfection that you find that could affect the appearance of the car when it is finished the way you want it.  Be critical, think like a buyer instead of an owner. If you have friends interested in older cars and have some automotive experience (especially in the body and paint area) they can be a greal help in finding the problem areas (everybody likes to point out problems in someone elses car).  When you have a pretty clear idea of the actual condition of the car, including upholstery and mechanical areas, then look at your budget in the same critical manner.  You may decide to change your goals for the car.  There is nothing wrong with driving an unrestored car.  I know several guys who have put their car in good mechanical condition, cleaned the inside and outside, and drive their cars every chance they get.  A few have told me that they like not worrying about getting a minor dent or scratch at an event.  Also, I agree that good paint jobs are expensive, but I also agree that location can have a pretty big effect on labor costs.  If you decide to have the car painted, go to as many events in as many different areas or towns as you can and look at the cars there. You may decide that a less than complete repaint is good enough for you.  Talk to the owners of cars you like.  They may have a paint and body shop reccommendation for you.  Look into as many of those you can.  Whatever you decide, remember that the reason for having a classic car is having the most enjoyment you can.  Good luck!

 

Larry

[Rusty_OToole]

If the original paint is intact you are far better off to polish and wax it. You can do this yourself but do it by hand, do not use a buffer. A buffer can do major damage unless you are an expert and you don't want to make your newbie mistakes on a car like that.

 

I won' t go into all the gory details there must be lots of videos on Youtube. Basically start with a clay bar to take off dead paint. Polish with fine compound or polish and then wax it. Give it at least 3 or 4 coats of wax. It gets easier each time. Once you have it polished and waxed it will stay beautiful if you go over it once or twice a years.

 

Small blemishes can be ignored or touched up. Even if it is not perfect it will look good from a little distance. These days a lot of people prefer the well preserved original look.

[AJFord54]

All I can say is - I spent (yes, 15 years ago) exactly $4000 and that included welding body rear quarters, frame off, base coat/clear coat with Glasurit paint.  Small town - excellent work.  Result:  Grand National.  Yes, today with all of the extra work done, probably $8000.  Again, Philadelphia, Cleveland, etc. probably a lot more.  A private individual will certainly have lower costs and be able to provide equal quality if he/she has the talents.

 

[Akstraw]

I agree with the post above; go to local cruise-in or cars & coffee events and find the paint jobs you like.  Then ask the owners who painted them.  Members of your local AACA Region or other local car club would be a good source of recommendations as well.  I am sure that there are some good local shops from which to choose.  My experience is that the best ones stay busy without advertising, so they can be somewhat obscure.  I generally avoid the shops that primarily do collision or "insurance" work, as they tend to charge more, and also treat the collector car projects as a lower priority.  Good luck!

[mercer09]

go to Maaco and drop 4-5k and that is the best you are going to do. Dont want to get top heavy on costs for a 55 Packard.

[Buffalowed Bill]

I agree with Rusty on this one. Detail it to the the best that the car's ability will take it. Drive it and enjoy it for awhile. Learn to live with what you have. If you just jump into a protracted period of paint work, you are loosing time that you could be enjoying it. Chances are that after you put a nice paint job on the car, the chrome and interior will not be good enough. Many of us have already been there. 

 

An alternative, find another car on which some poor guy has already bit the bullet restoring. He has already done the work, and paid the bills, now you might be able the reap the benefit. Then you can keep or sell your car, as you see fit. Surprising how good your unrestored  car might look when you have something that's really nice to alternate with it. You might be surprised by the response that your car will get, from real car people.  The hobby has come a long way from the time when we thought that everything had to be restored. 

[Brass is Best]

There is always this cheap option...

[Xander Wildeisen]

 

[Xander Wildeisen]

ACT FAST!!!!  Before the price goes up !! RIGHTTTT.

 

[Matt Harwood]

1 hour ago, mercer09 said:

go to Maaco and drop 4-5k and that is the best you are going to do. Dont want to get top heavy on costs for a 55 Packard.

 

I can't argue with this advice. Remove everything you don't want painted and let Maaco shoot it. Low(ish) cost, decent results for a driver-grade car. Use single-stage paint, no clear. I did that when I was 15 and put my first car back together (a '76 Eldorado convertible). I removed everything that could be removed, put it on a flatbed, and let Maaco shoot it. It still cost about $3500 and that was 1985 dollars, but when the trim went back on, it looked pretty darned good. Plenty of tape marks in the jambs and overspray in the engine bay, trunk, and underneath, but I didn't care and nobody would really notice. Mercer is right, spending a huge pile of cash for paint on a '55 Packard is probably a mistake. 

[60FlatTop]

16 hours ago, Michael C Wauhop said:

I have a 1955 Packard 400 Hardtop. It is a  rust free car from the state of Arizona I bought over 15 years ago . The car has been garage kept since i bought it.

 

Have you been driving this car on a regular basis and have a friendly, reliable relationship with it? If it has been sitting there for 15 years waiting to be prettied up to take out in public the dreams may not turn out so good.

 

I learned a great question for car buying from a friend, ask the seller "If you kept the car, what would you do to it to make it better?". Put yourself in that position, if you didn't need to paint the car and you had extra money what would you do? The answer will give you a good idea of how well you know the car and your priorities. I just bought a newer car with a very high reputation for demanding maintenance. It was the dealer's personal ride and I asked that question. He gave a very satisfying answer and got the fish hooks out of my pocket.

 

I also think a shop rate of $50/hr is low. There are a lot of fingers dipping into that money during the hour. $100/hr gives the Boss a chance to take home a check as big as the helper after expenses are paid. So you have 10 major panels that average 10 hours each at $100.hr. There is some easy math. Throw on $3,000 for material and expect the unexpected. Have you priced door and window rubber?

 

You can buy a lot of painting equipment for that money and do it until you get it right. "I do it nice, cause I do it twice" or was that thrice?

Bernie

[Xander Wildeisen]

All of this talking is wasting time. The price keeps going up!!! RIGHTTT.

 

[Mark Shaw]

18 hours ago, Michael C Wauhop said:

I am not looking to win 1st place at Hershey but I do want the car to look good.

 

Michael,

    I have had several cars painted by my local MAACO shop.  They are in the top 20 of hundreds of MAACO shops in the US, and they do exactly what you want.  Just tell them what level of perfection you want and see if they can do it for the price you want to pay.  I had body damage on my 38 Buick that required painting the whole car.  I removed all the bright work & fenders and let them do the rest.  Their top level color/clear paint job proved to be an excellent choice.  I had it detailed at another local shop that polished out the little bit of orange peel and paid less than $2500 for everything.  Before and after photos below:

 

[RiKi5156B]

And it looks great in person.

[Frank DuVal]

3 hours ago, Mark Shaw said:

They are in the top 20 of hundreds of MAACO shops in the US

Yes, Mark is right that you need to know the quality level of your local MAACO. They vary in quality, paint lines, technical ability, etc.  Like the above suggestions, ask around for references and see the finished cars. 

 

The was a MAACO in Richmond that did poor work, brought all their dis-satisfied customers cars in and torched the place! This was maybe 30 years ago, no relation to the franchises there now. Those owners left town!

[cahartley]

9 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

If the original paint is intact you are far better off to polish and wax it. You can do this yourself but do it by hand, do not use a buffer. A buffer can do major damage unless you are an expert and you don't want to make your newbie mistakes on a car like that.

 

I won' t go into all the gory details there must be lots of videos on Youtube. Basically start with a clay bar to take off dead paint. Polish with fine compound or polish and then wax it. Give it at least 3 or 4 coats of wax. It gets easier each time. Once you have it polished and waxed it will stay beautiful if you go over it once or twice a years.

 

Small blemishes can be ignored or touched up. Even if it is not perfect it will look good from a little distance. These days a lot of people prefer the well preserved original look.

 

There is a place in this area that does amazing things to vehicles with weathered but otherwise decent paint.

Some of their before & after photos boggle the mind.

Perhaps there is a detailing outfit in your area.

 

http://www.totallyspotless.net

[Rusty_OToole]

Agree about the detail shop. A good man with a buffer can do wonders. Some are real artists and have the experience not to burn thru or damage paint. Your car could look practically as good as new for a fraction of the cost of a paint job