1932 Packard 900; Sagging door

[1937 Buick 66C]

I have recently acquired a 1932 Packard 900 Light Eight Roadster (I am new to Packard ownership).  The driver's door sags, and is extremely difficult to latch.  I would appreciate any suggestions on how to go about determining the source of the problem, and any suggested resolutions.  I suspect that the door was left unlatched for several months, resulting in the sagging I am observing.  The door does not appear to be loose at any of the hinges, and is quite difficult to lift into position to get it latched. 

 

This car is an excellent, older restoration, and I would like to address this issue with the door without embarking on significant body rework, if avoidable.

 

 

[alsancle]

9 hours ago, 1937 Buick 66C said:

 I suspect that the door was left unlatched for several months, resulting in the sagging I am observing. 

 

If you feel that this is not a framing issue, or in the hinge pins and is in fact related to an extended period of the door being open,  you could try very slowly and gently reversing the process.   Place a jack under the door and every few days or once a week increase the up pressure every so slightly.

[Restorer32]

Your door is wood framed though the hinge to body connections are metal to metal. Sounds like sagging or improperly installed wood. You might try installing a screen door turnbuckle inside the door from top front to bottom rear. A few turns on the turnbuckle might solve the problem. We have rewooded many of these doors. Getting them to fit properly can be tricky. 

[Restorer32]

Here's what your doors look like deskinned.

[1937 Buick 66C]

On 2/26/2018 at 6:26 AM, alsancle said:

 

If you feel that this is not a framing issue, or in the hinge pins and is in fact related to an extended period of the door being open,  you could try very slowly and gently reversing the process.   Place a jack under the door and every few days or once a week increase the up pressure every so slightly.

 

On 2/28/2018 at 6:42 AM, Restorer32 said:

A few turns on the turnbuckle might solve the problem. We have rewooded many of these doors. Getting them to fit properly can be tricky.    Here's what your doors look like deskinned. 

 

Good Afternoon,

 

Thank you both for the helpful comments, and the images of the "deskinned" door.  Both provide me with insight I did not previously have.   After taking possession of the Packard about 3 weeks ago,  I unlatched the top from the windshield and worked the door into the fully closed position, noting here that the door does not act "loose";  It was damn difficult to lift it into position to get it fully latched.  I don't think that unlatching the top had much effect;  I wanted to make sure that the top was not providing still more undesirable pressure on the windshield frame and cowl, as it was very cold when I was doing this.  Last week I checked and observed that the door fit was much closer, but still exhibiting an undesirable amount of sag.  It is not nearly as difficult to get it into position as previously.

 

Please provide me with a "reasonableness edit" on the following:

I am suspecting that the wood is loose enough that the extended period of time that the door was standing unlatched (weeks, if not months) caused the sag.  The fact the it being properly latched reduced the sag significantly and there is no apparent looseness in the door seems positive to me.    I believe I will do as alsancle recommends, and apply gradual upward pressure on the door using a bottle jack for the next few weeks and see if I can gradually eliminate the sag entirely.  I have a question about how to approach this;  Would you recommend that I apply pressure to the door when it is very close to closed (using the running board as leverage) or apply pressure when the door is fully open?

 

My long-term concern is that sufficient "looseness" has been introduced into the wood framework that it will quickly revert back to a sagging state.  Should this happen, I would like to then apply Restorer32's suggesting of installing a turnbuckle into the door frame.  Should it become necessary to do this, is there a particular position you would recommend for installation of a turnbuckle?  As with my prior question, would installation of the turnbuckle take place with the door in an open or closed position?

 

I note here that this car is an older, but excellent restoration and remains in excellent condition.  t was awarded a Gold Senior award (I don't recall if it was CCCA or AACA) a decade or so ago.  I really would like to avoid doing anything that is likely to create additional damage or necessitate a great deal of rework, yet I would like to resolve the issue as permanently as possible.

 

Thank you again for your assistance.  Following please find an image of my car:

 

[alsancle]

Nice Packard!

 

I would pull the door panel off and see what the wood looks like.  There may be a turnbuckle already in place.

[Restorer32]

Most cars we rewood get turnbuckles in the doors. You want the turnbuckle to go ftom the top hinge side of the door to the opposite lower corner. A simple.screen door turnbuckle from the hardware store works fine but you will likely have to modify it's length. You also need to recess the ends.of the turn buckle into the wood so the fit of.your door panel isn't affected.You will be surprised how well a few turns on the turnbuckle works to adjust the fit of the door.

 

[1937 Buick 66C]

Good Afternoon all,

 

For the past 10 days or so, I have been putting a mile upward load on the door, in a nearly closed position, using a fabric ratchet strap suspended from the truss immediately above the door.  The good news is that the "sag" is much improved over time.  The bad news is that the sag is still present, and the door does not close as well as it should.  I will check for, and try the turnbuckle approach.  I'm also going to have my body man look at it, as the gap between the cowl and door is greater at the top than the bottom, making me think that the hinge may be bent a bit also.  In any case, I'm going to ask him to evaluate the fit and see if removing the top hinge and bending the cowl side of the hinge slightly would be appropriate.

 

Thanks, all for your help. 

[Highlander160]

You don't want to jack or pull on the door. Can we assume you did the obvious and checked all the screws, on both the door and cowl, and were they all tight? I've run into more loose fasteners over the past 8-10 years than I have in the decades prior, and always on "restored" or other recent projects. The door frame shown to you by Restorer 32 is a great "tell" for you. The screws are usually going into wood nuts, or simply threaded metal inserts that use a pass thru machine thread screw. Someone may have thought a hardy wood screw was sufficient. With the windows and related hardware that's some notable weight there. The other thing missed by some is that often the final fit of the door gaps requires a sequence of tightening on the cowl bolts. For example, if the body/cowl bolts by the door are loosened a little, then tighten the forward cowl bolts, it raises the door and aligns the rearward gap. Make sense? A little movement there is a lot at the top rear gap. Then there's dove tails and receivers that come into play too, but not 100% keen as to what was used in the 900s. Good luck, but don't jack the door up for alignment. You might get rewarded with buckled sheet metal. More pictures of the problem and fasteners would help.

[Classic Car Fan]

If all the screws for the hinges, and the hinge pins are tight, then the door misalignment is likely caused by wood that moved, then in my opinion the best option is to turnbuckle the door. 

Andy

turnbuckle doors.pdf

Edited March 24, 2018 by Classic Car Fan (see edit history)

[1937 Buick 66C]

Good Evening all,

 

Before applying any upward pressure to the door, I did find that the screws holding the hinges to the door were not tight (not loose, certainly not as tight as they should be).  I tightened these, and with the assistance of another Buick club member watched the door very carefully as we lifted it into position to get it latched.  There is slight wear in the top hinge pin, however not nearly enough to account for the amount of sag.

 

I have left the "sling" around the door for a couple of weeks while I deal with the fuel system (6 gallons of nasty smelling stuff that was once fuel and all of the downstream nastiness).  I got the Packard running and up to temperature over the weekend!!  So far, so good.  The door is much better than it was, and will close without lifting it, although it is still not correct.  I'm taking off for two weeks on business;  When I return, the turnbuckle looks like the next step. 

 

Are there any tricks to successfully disassemble the interior of the door without damaging stuff?  Any advise on getting the door apart is welcomed.

 

Thanks again to everyone.

Best Regards,
Jon B Kanas

[Restorer32]

You can remove the wood panel that  holds the window regulator and door handle. You can also remove the inner cross piece at the bottom of the door,  Other than that you cannot disassemble the door wood  without deskinning it first. 

[trimacar]

Do you have the door panel itself removed?  If you have questions about how to remove the panel itself, assuming it's not obvious (i.e. exposed screws), then let us know and we'll try to help, a picture of the door panel would be good.

 

There are so many things on an open car that can affect door alignment and closure.  Condition of the wood sills, shimming of the body when it goes back on frame, condition of cowl wood, condition of door wood, hinge wear and alignment, and so forth.

 

The one comment that you made that gives me pause is when you stated that you loosened the top attachment to the windshield, and at some point the fit of the door seemed better.  If the tension of the top on the windshield is affecting door alignment, then you have issues with the cowl, and in all probability some hidden bad wood.  I'd be all in and under the cowl wood and the sills, poking with a screwdriver and visually inspecting, my bet is you're going to find either bad wood or a bad repair job that's allowing the cowl to flex.

[Restorer32]

Other than the sills there is no structural wood in a 900 cowl. The hinges mount directly to steel. I suspect your sill is bad. The steel A pillar attaches with 3 stout screws to the outside of the sill under the sheet metal and several screws down thru the base of the A pillar. 

[Restorer32]

You should not have to pull on the cowl to latch the conv top. It should be a natural fit. 

[1937 Buick 66C]

Good Evening all,

 

Please forgive my ignorance, but please explain the "sill", or where I can obtain a body structure guide for the 900 that would show me how this is designed / assembled.  I have a "Fisher Body Guide" for my Buick, but do not know what the equivalent for the Packard is.  This is my first antique car with structural wood, so I am generally unfamiliar with how these cars are assembled. 

 

On my Buick, the door alignment is adjusted by shims between the body and frame (all steel body).

 

A local Packard enthusiast took a look at it last weekend, and also observed that the gap between the hood and cowl was greater than the gap between the hood and the radiator shell;  He also mentioned "sill", but we didn't have a lot of time to follow up. 

[Restorer32]

There is no book dealing with 900 wood. The sills are the long and wide pieces of wood that run from the front of the cowl to the rear of the body. All the rest of the wood is built up from these pieces. Unless they are in good shape you will never get the doors to open or close accurately. Trust me, I know. We have rewooded at least a dozen 900's over the years, including 2 in the last year. I own one myself. There is a good bit of wood in a 900 coupe or convertible, both being the same. You are looking at $7500 or so  to purchase all new wood, more to have it installed. You might be able to bodge up your wood with "miracle" wood fillers if that's how you chose to go. Your body has to be disassembled to replace the wood. There is no "putting new wood into the body" as all the fasteners that hold the wood together are under the skin of the body. The wood needs to be assembled on the rear metal pan then the body is put in place. Not as complicated as it sounds. Happy to answer any questions you might have. If there is one car I know well it's the Packard 900. I think I could make a set of wood with one hand tied behind my back.