R.White Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 I am having real trouble in obtaining bent valve inner tubes for 400/450 - 21 tyres/tires. The valve needs to be metal as it comes into contact with the rim. It also needs to be bent over - and long enough to exit the disc wheel to the front. (See photos 1 & 3). Trying to inflate the existing tyres (with the valve behind the disc wheel) is a very inconvenient and dirty job. The existing rubber valves on three of the wheels are also chafing on the rim and won't last much longer. In the middle photo (courtesy of Vintage Tyres at the National Motor Museum, Beaulieu) a "beaded edge" tyre inner tube with an angled valve extension is being considered but it is not quite the right size.(More like 22" ). How easy is it for you guys to get the right inner tubes? Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 https://www.gemplers.com/valve-stems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
27dodger0 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Would a truck tire or a RV tube work?? I know that some have bent valves for dual rims. Good luck!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 5 minutes ago, 27dodger0 said: Would a truck tire or a RV tube work?? I know that some have bent valves for dual rims. Good luck!! You beat me to that answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 Thank you Tinindian. That valve is described for tubeless tires. I don't know if it would be possible to fit to an inner tube.? 27dodger and Keiser. Thanks. I have enquire with various tyre experts over here and despite their best efforts to find a suitable 21" tube of the right diameter they have come up with nothing. 21" Truck tubes appear too big for the DB rim/tyre. I wonder if there are suitable tubes available in the States? Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
27dodger0 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 When I started the restoration of my car, the first thing I wanted to do was get the tires to a reliable state. In the process, I found one of them had an odd sized tube, inflated to a lesser degree, to fit the tire. Could have been a truck tube!! Us old guys make things work!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
27dodger0 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Forgot to mention, I put all new flaps in the rims, and dealt with Coker Tire, who at that time had everything I needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 I already have a less than perfect option.; I just like to be better safe than sorry. Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) I had bent valves similar to those shown above fitted to the tubes for my Dodge 8, years ago. Still OK. The valve stem screws into the base that was glued to the tube in place of the original valve. The hard part was to get the stem facing at 90o to the plane of the tube. I think I was told the valves were for truck tubes, but ithat was 20+ years ago so ..... Edited February 21, 2018 by Spinneyhill (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 1 minute ago, Spinneyhill said: I had bent valves similar to those shown above fitted to the tubes for my Dodge 8, years ago. Still OK. The valve stem screws into the base that was glued to the tube in place of the original valve. The hard part was to get the stem facing at 90o to the plane of the tube. So would you glue the valve base (like tinindian has posted) in place of the original rubber valve on the outside of the tube? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 That is how I remember it. They ground off the old valve, which is a similar construction to the replacement but short stem with the stem covered in rubber and vulcanised onto the tube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 8 minutes ago, Spinneyhill said: That is how I remember it. They ground off the old valve, which is a similar construction to the replacement but short stem with the stem covered in rubber and vulcanised onto the tube. Therin lies a problem. I understand that this type of repair is illegal in the UK/EU. Even if I was able to get the tubes modified, it would compromise my car insurance... you just can't win these days. Then again, how safe would it be?. Everything is steering me away from tube valve replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 At one time you could order tubes from the vintage tire people and tell them what stem you wanted/needed on the tubes. The vulcanized the proper stem and as far as you would be converned they came that way. By the way: ALL valve stems are either vulcanized on to the tube or are clamped into the tube. There is no other way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 4 hours ago, R.White said: I understand that this type of repair is illegal in the UK BS AU 159 is the relevant standard. You need a library; it is c. 100 GBP to buy it! Ouch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFranklin Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 (edited) I bought tubes from Coker and had bent metal stems (clamp style) bought and installed by them. Nothing glued on. These were on Budd disk wheels. Edited February 22, 2018 by JFranklin (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted February 22, 2018 Author Share Posted February 22, 2018 9 hours ago, Spinneyhill said: BS AU 159 is the relevant standard. You need a library; it is c. 100 GBP to buy it! Ouch. I very much appreciate your help, however BSI recommendations are just guidelines. I think it unlikely that a tyre centre will carry out any repairs that could possibly (however unlikely) result in litigation. They are generally all looking over their shoulders these days. As to your other suggestion. I am sorry but I am not familiar with the software to which I think you are referring. I am probably a dinosaur. Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert b Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Ray realy this is a basic repair that has been with us for the past 100 years plus and its no like you are ever going to do free way speeds in this car . tell them thats its for a lawn tractor ha ha ha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted February 22, 2018 Author Share Posted February 22, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, robert b said: Ray realy this is a basic repair that has been with us for the past 100 years plus and its no like you are ever going to do free way speeds in this car . tell them thats its for a lawn tractor ha ha ha If you scratch the surface of almost any of the new regulations you will find the letters "E.U." I have no idea whether or not the U.K. will fly or die outside the E.U. but hopefully we will see an end to suffocating legislation. If we don't, then what would have been the point of Brexit? The plan now is to fit a 820 x120 mm beaded edge tube (as shown in the middle photo). I am told this will work. Ray. Edited February 22, 2018 by R.White (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert b Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 yeah Ray it seams that there is a new regulation for every thing that we do to day , even here in the lost world the boffin controilers seam to want rule our daily lives with more regulations that do nothing for the good of man other than make them important . This is a simple tube repair that been going on for the past 100 years plus and its in use on a car would never reach a speed that would ever any thing to worry about ,but the legal dudes would seam to tell us other wise from there ivory towers ( even though they are still in nappies and just out of school ) we must remember that they KNOW BETTER THEN US . Man what is this world doing ,does not anybody accept the own responsibilty any more . sorry the rant Ray but your not alone on this garbage , even we are getting this here .Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted February 22, 2018 Author Share Posted February 22, 2018 Rant as much as you like, Bob. This is my thread and, as you know, I like a diversion now and then. There are a lot of people here who think leaving the E.U. will shake off some of the chains but I'm not so sure. As I write this, our Parliament is carbon copying every single bit of red tape that has ever come out of Brussels and transferring it into British law. We will end up with Brexit In name only. There is even a name for it: "Brexino". We are even adopting the new M.O.T. standards as decided by the E.U. This means that any car over 30 years old will be deemed a VHI (vehicle of historic interest) and will be exempt from the road worthiness test...unless it has been "substantially modified" in the past 30 years...in which case it will have to not only take the test but meet all the latest exhaust emission standards...which, of course, older engines cannot meet. Take a look at some of the brilliant cars which could become extinct.http://www.suffolksportscars.com Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Sounds like the UK vintage car lobby better get themselves into gear and demand some rules to allow them to own and drive old cars. We have to keep onto it here to make sure our freedoms aren't unwittingly regulated away by unknowing youngsters. BS AU 159 seems to be the "best practice" standard. I see a few web sites advertising repairs and other work to that standard. In my experience, there are very few voluntary Standards; they cost money to produce (and buy!) and are usually the technical part of some regulations, which probably means you can find the appropriate gazette notice making them legal. If it is illegal to vulcanise a patch including a valve onto a tube, is it illegal to patch a hole in a tube? It is the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted February 22, 2018 Author Share Posted February 22, 2018 (edited) The fact is that even independent tyre fitters (you can forget the chains) very rarely handle an inner tube these days. There is also no profit in repairing a tube if they can sell you a new one.! My local outfit are helpful enough when dealing with modern tyres but when it comes to an old car they are just not used to our ways. The practices of old have no place in a commercial facility these days. Even if it is not strictly illegal to replace a valve in an inner tube, the guys doing the work will just say it is so you go away. As to the major proposed changes to the rules by the authorities; we have a last ditch hope of side stepping their worst effects through the efforts of the FBHVC - the Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs - who are listened to by the ' All Party Parliamentary Committee" which examines the effects of legislation on our hobby and the businesses which it supports. We are hopeful that sensible exemptions can be agreed. I have spoken recently to the owner of the 'Suffolk Sports Cars Company' who tells me that they (and other producers and kit car firms) are appealing the changes and are quite hopeful of a good result. The replica 1930s Jaguar SS100 they produce is based on the the JAGUAR XJ6 saloon of the 1980s so has a fully refurbished but "old" XK engine which would never pass today's exhaust emissions tests. The cars can be bought ready assembled or in a home build kit form (which I am keen on). I have suggested that if they are unsuccessful in their appeal then perhaps they might like to consider LPG as a fuel not tested for emissions. They had not thought of this and didn't realise that an open loop system could be used with twin carburettors. I think the solutions are usually there if you look for them. Ray. Edited February 22, 2018 by R.White (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 I ran into the exact same problem Ray. In desperation, I tried carefully bending the valve stem and it worked! There must be a brass tube inside of the stem that holds the bend. It still has enough pre load against the slot that chafing wear has not been an issue (yet). I can take some close up photos if you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted February 23, 2018 Author Share Posted February 23, 2018 Thanks Mike. More photos would help. I have now ordered three new tubes (at considerable expense) and can only hope they will work with my rims. If you look at the photo I took of one of my two correct tube/ tyres and compare it to the photo of the new tube with angled valve sat in a tyre, can you see if there is likely to be a problem fitting the rim? If the valve extension sits under the rim the tube doesn't lay flush with the inside surface. If the valve extension needs to be attached to the outside of the rim the valve may not be long enough to accept the angled extension. Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 I will Ray. I’m flying home from a business trip (Istanbul) on Saturday so I should get to it on Sunday. I did purchase a new tube a couple of years ago for my spare tire and I seem to recall only straight valve stems were available. But it is long enough that I was able to successfully do the bend trick with it as well. The tubes on the other tires were installed by the previous owner but I did the bending without dismounting them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted February 23, 2018 Author Share Posted February 23, 2018 I am committed to the tubes that I have paid for now. Being 820 x 120 mm, originally for beaded edge tyres, they are very expensive but the chap at Vintage Tyres (located at the National Motor Museum in Beaulieu) has assured me that they will be O.K. I know my luck. When I try to fit them, I will find a problem.. Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFranklin Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 (edited) Anybody else looking to solve this these are listed on Ebay. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Model-A-T-Ford-Truck-Schrader-4414-Inner-Tube-Tire-Valve-Stems-Original/222844065668?hash=item33e28a9784:g:22gAAOSwUDxaeg59&vxp=mtr Edited February 25, 2018 by JFranklin grammer (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 Hi Ray, Here are photos of the stem bending I did. I think I deflated the tire in order to maneuver the bend into the slot (I'm certain I didn't dismount the tires). I think I used a 1 - 1.5 inch round bar to bend against to obtain the radius. When I did the spare, I bent the stem before installing tube/tire. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted February 25, 2018 Author Share Posted February 25, 2018 (edited) That looks just fine Mike. Unfortunately, three of my tubes have the standard short rubber valves so too short to be bent. I will soon receive the new tubes which do have long valves but they are detachable so the tyre expert guy thought it would be better to replace them with angled valves as shown in the photo. The worry I have is that if you look at one of my correct tubes (photo) the plain part of the valve exits the rim so do I fit the collar of the new valve under the rim or above? If below, the shoulder of the valve/tube will not sit snugly against the underside of the rim. If I try fitting the valve extension above the rim there might not be enough sticking out to join on to. I suppose I will have to experiment when the tubes arrive. If the original valves have been included I can bend them like you have done with yours. Thanks for posting the photos. Ray. Edited February 25, 2018 by R.White (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 OK, good luck with it Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted March 7, 2018 Author Share Posted March 7, 2018 I am in a spot of trouble with these wheels. Having shelled out £150 for new inner tubes and bent valves, I tried to remove the tyres with tyre levers but it was too much for me so I went to our local independent tyre centre (tire center) . When I showed the old guy there the 21" disc wheels he said they wouldn't fit on his machine. He also said that even if they could fit, his firm would not do the work. The reason given was that they were dangerous and needed to be done in a cage. The only people who had that sort of kit would be a Truck tyre outfit. To add insult to injury I was informed that the truck people would probably refuse to change the tubes because the 'cover' was perished around the side wall. Apparently, there is a risk that the machine used to remove the tyre could damage the side wall so I would need to buy all new tyres. I tried to explain that these disc wheels have a "split ring" rather than a "split rim" and were not the infamous "widow maker" that Ford trucks used to fit but the old fella was having none of it. He was adamant the law was that a cage must be used. The only option if I can't find a truck place todo the job is either leave it as is (unsatisfactory) or sell the car. with the inner tubes thrown in. I have taken a fair bit from this car but this may be the last straw. Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 I do my own, but with old tires it is very hard work. They are very stiff. I would call them "locking ring" wheels, not "split ring". I take off the ring with two big sacrificial screwdrivers to start then two narrow somewhat modern tire levers to work around as I go. I wear my heavy boots to stand or stamp on it strategically as required. Once the ring is off I push a short length of plastic tube onto the valve and push the valve through the rim to inside the tire. The plastic protects the valve thread and the rim paint. This is the really hard part: it is easy enough to get a lever in and lift the tire at the valve, but getting your hand in there to pull the valve in is really hard. I tend to lift a bead, pop in a block of wood, lift a bit of tire nearby and pop in another piece of wood and so on until it is open enough for me to get in and pull the valve in. With new, flexible tires, it is easy and doesn't require all these shenanigans. Once the valve is inside the tire, I turn it over onto a big block of wood so the rim is off the floor an inch or two then gently knock the tire off with light blows as close to the bead as I can get (hit a piece of wood held on the bead). If you hit it hard it just bounces. The tire slides off, with difficulty. When you put the tire on, do it dry. Any moisture you put in there, detergent or whatever, will still be there when you take the tire off in 10 years time. Talcum powder works, but not much coz the tire will move on it. I also leave the piece of plastic on the valve: it makes it easy to feed it through then pull the valve through the rim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArticiferTom Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Is this type of tire your talking about ? Good vid . https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=vintage+tire+change&&view=detail&mid=237B5F294ED498270128237B5F294ED498270128&&FORM=VRDGAR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 This video shows the type of rim that most shops think of when you say split rim. These are the rims that can kill you if you don't take proper precautions. At age 5 my Grandparents and I lived next door to a Transportation Company shop which was next door to the local Greyhound shop. In 1946 one or the men in the Greyhound shop had a groove nearly an inch deep in his head where a lock ring had blown off, hit the roof and came down and knocked him out. The year I am talking about (1947) a mechanic in the Transportation shop was killed when a lock ring blew off and killed him. I guess he did not learn anything from the guy next door. I worked in a GM truck dealership for fourteen years and we never had an accident or incident with 3 piece split rims. Today many/most guys working in tire shops have no experience with tube tired wheels either drop center, two piece or three piece rims and they have no interest in learning. Possibly because of insurance liability and incorrect wording in their insurance policy. Workers compensation has not helped either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 Installing a new tire and tube wasn't that difficult but I haven't had the pleasure of removing an old tire/tube yet. Were you able to get the lock ring removed or is that where you're stuck? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted March 8, 2018 Author Share Posted March 8, 2018 6 hours ago, MikeC5 said: Installing a new tire and tube wasn't that difficult but I haven't had the pleasure of removing an old tire/tube yet. Were you able to get the lock ring removed or is that where you're stuck? The tyre centre guy is right about one thing. These tyres may have plenty of tread on them but they are very old and show signs of perishing on the side wall. With the wheel on the floor I tried to remove the ring but the cover is too stiff to compress enough. I tried standing on the sidewall and it moved a bit but just not enough to get the ring out. From what I have been told if this compression was done on a machine it could damage the sidewall beyond repair. These 21" tyres don't come cheap but if I want to be safe perhaps I need to replace them all? Beginning to wish I had left well alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 Hi Ray, if you don't know how old they are and have doubts about the structural integrity, new tires sounds like the way to go. Over here they run around $200 each, which, although by no means cheap, isn't that much more than a good set of tires for the typical SUV. I hope the price is not more on your side of the pond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted March 8, 2018 Author Share Posted March 8, 2018 22 minutes ago, MikeC5 said: Hi Ray, if you don't know how old they are and have doubts about the structural integrity, new tires sounds like the way to go. Over here they run around $200 each, which, although by no means cheap, isn't that much more than a good set of tires for the typical SUV. I hope the price is not more on your side of the pond. Yes Mike, but even if I were to shell out for new tyres I would still need them fitted by someone with a cage. I hate to think how much a truck tyre centre would charge. When you get into commercial vehicle prices the prices kick in at a higher level. Having read so many horror stories on these locking rings I can't see me attempting it at home. As it happens, my first job was in a tyre centre and there I learned not to ignore safety warnings from guys who had done it all their lives. All I wanted to do was change the tubes with different valves making it easier to inflate. What I should do about it I am not sure. I am not even sure I want a car with this kind of problem.? Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheelmang Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 It is not the wheels that are the problem. This type of setup, trucks or cars, gained it's notoriety from improper installation due to a lack or training or using worn out components. I have seen lock rings embedded in cinder block walls because someone used improper or worn out components. Another trick when big truck tubeless first came on the scene was the use of ether to inflate a tire. Fill the unseated tire with ether and throw a match at it. A four hundred pound assembly would lift off the floor and come down seated. Do not recommend this! Ken Tool used to make tire irons specifically for working on these type of wheels and rims. There are also a number of lubricants, Murphy,s and Frye-lube to name a couple, made specifically for easing the mounting. These will in no way harm the rubber or steel. This is not to say it is easy peasy work to change these. You will work up a sweat. The point, is if done with the proper tools and tires, rims, rings and mounting surfaces, that are in usable condition, they are safe. Never stand directly over or in front of ANY tire that is being inflated. If you are afraid of it blowing up, get a lock on inflation tool and slide it under your wife's car to inflate. Just kidding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted March 8, 2018 Author Share Posted March 8, 2018 10 minutes ago, Wheelmang said: If you are afraid of it blowing up, get a lock on inflation tool and slide it under your wife's car to inflate. Just kidding. Would that be with her in the car?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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