1913 Buick model 25

[Simon Anderson]

Hello

 

I am looking at purchasing a 1913 Buick model 25.

my questions are,

What should i be looking out for?

Is there any company's out there that deal in any reproduction or second hand parts?

what would you call a fair price?

 

Thanks for your input.

Simon

[trimacar]

Without seeing the car in person, it's tough to put a price on it.  25 HP cars form 1912-1915 seem to trade in the 20-30K range, with exceptional examples possibly a little higher.  That looks like a very nice car, but not in the exceptional realm.

 

From the picture, hard to tell quality of paint, how it runs, quality of upholstery (is it leather or vinyl, and first glance seems to be foam?), frame painted an odd color for the car, strange horn mounting and tube, condition of top, and so forth.

 

If it's a fair price and you like the car, and it runs and drives well, go for it!

[ROD W]

Simon,    Ask this question in the Buick Pre- War section of this Forum.  You will get more reply,s.   That looks like the car sold by Rainsfords  a while back,  but It  isn,t  in his cars  currently for sale.

[edinmass]

I agree, ask on the Buick forum, also, hire a expert to inspect ANY car before you purchase it. Money well spent.

[Simon Anderson]

Thanks All,

 

Yes Rod W, it was sold by Rainfords, it has come up for sale again.

 

[Mark Shaw]

57 minutes ago, trimacar said:

25 HP cars form 1912-1915 seem to trade in the 20-30K range

David,

    The Model 25 actually has a 165 cu in engine rated at 22.5 HP according to the Standard Catalog of American Cars.  I have two Buicks with that engine and the power to weight ratio is similar to the bigger series Buicks, so they can keep up quite well with the bigger cars on tours.  Depending on the quality of the restoration & current condition I think it would be closer to the $20K end of the range.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Mark Shaw (see edit history)

[Joe in Canada]

Why is it up for sale again I would be thinking??? Wood or engine issues??? Just thinking out loud.

[Simon Anderson]

its up for sale again because, sadly the owner passed away.

 

[Joe in Canada]

4 minutes ago, Simon Anderson said:

its up for sale again because, sadly the owner passed away.

 

Seems like so many of the earlier cars are estate sales.

[C Carl]

Hi Simon! By all means introduce yourself on the Buick forums , particularly Pre-War. The Buick ladies and gentlemen are the most numerous , and most active on AACA. You will be in the best of hands with them. A few never venture out of the Buick forums at all , some seldom. 

 

It it is an all too frequent sad reminder as another one of our treasured friends leaves us. Fortunate are those who get to enjoy their toys up to that point. I myself am making plans to do exactly that.

 

It is always a good idea when looking for the type of advice you are seeking , to include some of your background, experience with and ownership of any old cars. Welcome to AACA forums ! I hope you agree on a price , and then stay on with us here !     - Carl 

[mercer09]

I agree with Trim on the pricing-hard to tell wo more information, but I prefer it over a T any day of the week and T's are bringing those prices.

 

A nice 13 roadster just sold on the HCCA for around 21k, and it looked like a bargain and sold in a day or two.

 

Buicks are great cars. Hope you buy it and enjoy it!

[Chris Paulsen]

Looks like a nice car. I agree with the others-more info would be helpful. The hubcaps are 1914 or newer-the hubs look like they may be, too. The front fenders are 1914 or 1915. The sidelights appear to be 1914.

If it is a Buick (not a McLaughlin), it looks like a 1914 B-25 body. If it was made for export that would explain the RHD. US Buicks were LHD in 1914, RHD in 1913.

Does it have an electric starter and generator?

I am more familiar with 1913 Buicks than 1914's, but there are several things about this car that would encourage me to do more homework if I want a 1913, not a 1914. It may not matter.

Either way, great cars, and a lot of fun!

[Simon Anderson]

Thanks all, 

from what I am told it’s a 13 model as it has no electrics. I am yet to go and see it as it’s 1000klms away.  I just want to educate myself before view the car.

[Simon Anderson]

[Chris Paulsen]

There should be a small aluminum tag on the left front frame horn, under the headlight. It will give you the model number.

That engine has some 1914 features such as the exhaust manifold and the push rod/rocker towers. In 1913 the exhaust manifold turned down in the back of the engine. And in 1913 the push rods floated in the rocker stands.

[ROD W]

Yes,  it looks like a 1914  165 cu inch motor.    Here are pics of a 1913   165 cu inch showing the rockers and exhaust manifold,  as described by Chris.  I understand that  In Australia they didn,t start  electics until after 1914 as the starter/generator got in the way of the right hand stearing.

Edited February 16, 2018 by ROD W (see edit history)

[Simon Anderson]

Thankyou all for your input.

another question, what would be the cruising speed? 35mph?

[Povertycove]

You can go a great deal faster than 35, but you don’t want to. You have just rear service brakes and an emergency brake. Driving brass cars takes all the concentration and energy you can muster. Our HCCA tours are usually under 100 miles a day for a reason. After 100 Miles, most drivers are ready for a rest. 35 mph is comfortable for most of the four and six cylinder cars.

[cxgvd]

Since no one mentioned the fact the gear lever is outside of the body and chassis frame and not Buick makes me wonder how it can even work?  Is the main body wooden sill tunnelled through for the gear linkage?  Regards, Gary

[Mark Shaw]

21 minutes ago, cxgvd said:

Since no one mentioned the fact the gear lever is outside of the body and chassis frame and not Buick makes me wonder how it can even work?

 

cxgvd,

      In 1912 and earlier, Buick did make outside shifters as shown in the photo.  My 12 Buick Model 34 Roadster is the same as shown, and has the 165 cu in engine.  In the 1913 Model 31 with the 201 cu in engine, Buick put the shifter in the door.

Photos of 1912 Model 34 before and after restoration.

[cxgvd]

Thanks Mark for the explanation, I know the '12 Cadillac is outside the body, didn't know about yours.  Seems like the mechanism travels through a hole in the frame?  Gary

[Simon Anderson]

very interesting,

I have got the agent to do some measurements for me.

wheelbase is 106"

wheelsize is, 815/105   32" x 3.5

engine number, 15792-2

id number could not be found, its not located under the LH headlight

 

could this be a model 27? with the exposed gear/brake lever, this model did have 106 wheelbase.

 

i think i am just going to have to take the 2000klm round trip to take a look for myself.

 

Simon

[Ozstatman]

Simon,

 

Before today hadn't realised you are an Aussie, so G'day!

 

This looks to be the car you are interested in - http://prestigeclassiccars.com.au/index.php/classic-cars-for-sale/279-1913-buick-model-38-tourer

 

If it is, then it's probably from the estate of a well known NSW Southern Highlands collector who passed away the year before last. Adam has been brokering the sale of many of his vehicles. I went and looked at about 20 Packards that were in the collectors main warehouse in the Southern Highlands last year and felt that most were overpriced, some grossly so. The main drawback to these cars is that they just sat, some for many, many years, because I believe he had something like 700 cars and a similar number of motorcycles. Hope the Buick saw some time on the road.  Is the car at Pambula or Mittagong?

[Mark Shaw]

Simon,

     Keep in mind that Buick was known to introduce new models for the USA market and exported left over parts from the previous year's models.  That might explain the outside shifter on a 106" wheel base exported car.  Buick exported knock-down chassis that required bodies to be made by a licensed importer in the destination country.  Holden started importing into Australia from GM in 1908 when Buick was the largest component of GM; so this probably a Holden Buick. 

Edited February 20, 2018 by Mark Shaw (see edit history)

[Joe in Canada]

53 minutes ago, Mark Shaw said:

Simon,

     Keep in mind that Buick was known to introduce new models for the USA market and exported left over parts from the previous year's models.  That might explain the outside shifter on a 106" wheel base exported car.  Buick exported knock-down chassis that required bodies to be made by a licensed importer in the destination country.  Holden started importing into Australia from GM in 1908 when Buick was the largest component of GM; so this probably a Holden Buick. 

Would they have shipped new USA made Buicks to a Commonwealth Country or only McLaughlin Buicks made in Canada?

[Simon Anderson]

1 hour ago, Ozstatman said:

Simon,

 

Before today hadn't realised you are an Aussie, so G'day!

 

This looks to be the car you are interested in - http://prestigeclassiccars.com.au/index.php/classic-cars-for-sale/279-1913-buick-model-38-tourer

 

If it is, then it's probably from the estate of a well known NSW Southern Highlands collector who passed away the year before last. Adam has been brokering the sale of many of his vehicles. I went and looked at about 20 Packards that were in the collectors main warehouse in the Southern Highlands last year and felt that most were overpriced, some grossly so. The main drawback to these cars is that they just sat, some for many, many years, because I believe he had something like 700 cars and a similar number of motorcycles. Hope the Buick saw some time on the road.  Is the car at Pambula or Mittagong?

Yes Ozstateman it is,

I have been in the shed before as I brought an Austin seven form the estate, i total agree with your comment regarding over priced and just sitting around.

at first when talking to Adam the price was $50k...  i told him he was dreaming, you would pay that for a fully restored car. this is why I am trying to educate myself with info. thanks for the input

[Mark Shaw]

Joe,

     As I said, Buick contracted with coach builders in other countries (including McLaughlin in Canada) to build bodies for their "made in USA" knock-down chassis.  I understand that some countries had import laws and/or taxes that could be avoided by shipping only the running gear rather than a complete car. 

     I can only speculate that because Canada was a "Commonwealth Country", McLaughlin may have been able to sub-contract with England and other Commonwealth countries where GM could not establish such arrangements.

 

"The McLaughlin Motor Car Company Limited was formed in 1907 when McLaughlin began manufacturing automobiles under the leadership of Robert's son, Colonel Sam McLaughlin. Under a fifteen year contract the Canadian automobiles received drive trains bought-in from the Buick plant in Flint, Michigan."

Quoted from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Edited February 20, 2018 by Mark Shaw (see edit history)

[Chris Paulsen]

19 hours ago, Simon Anderson said:

very interesting,

I have got the agent to do some measurements for me.

wheelbase is 106"

wheelsize is, 815/105   32" x 3.5

engine number, 15792-2

id number could not be found, its not located under the LH headlight

 

could this be a model 27? with the exposed gear/brake lever, this model did have 106 wheelbase.

 

i think i am just going to have to take the 2000klm round trip to take a look for myself.

 

Simon

 

I believe the wheelbase should be 105", so it could just be a slight miscalculation, or the springs could have been changed.

The number 15792-2 is actually the cylinder jug casting number. There may be a number on a cast boss on one of the aluminum crankcase ears.

It is not a Model 27. A Model 27 has a larger engine.

[Mark Shaw]

To accurately measure the wheel base by cancelling the misalignment of front wheels, add the center to center measurements from both sides and divide by 2.

 

[Joe in Canada]

5 hours ago, Mark Shaw said:

 

"The McLaughlin Motor Car Company Limited was formed in 1907 when McLaughlin began manufacturing automobiles under the leadership of Robert's son, Colonel Sam McLaughlin. Under a fifteen year contract the Canadian automobiles received drive trains bought-in from the Buick plant in Flint, Michigan."

Quoted from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That is all correct I worked in CKD in Oshawa when it was in the old parts building back in the day. The car was built on the main assembly line then sent to CKD next building to the north by the rail lines. Where it was disassembled and packed in crates. But my question was did they ship Buicks to Australia without the McLaughlin badge on it.

[Simon Anderson]

Yes Australia did have an import tax on complete cars even back then, my Austin 7 was the same. Most makes came to AU as a chassis and there where a number of body builders, Holden was the major player but didn't start building bodies from 1917.

 

Edited February 20, 2018 by Simon Anderson (see edit history)

[1939_Buick]

23 hours ago, Simon Anderson said:

I have got the agent to do some measurements for me.

wheelbase is 106"

wheel size is, 815/105   32" x 3.5

engine number, 15792-2

ID number could not be found, its not located under the LH headlight

 

Could this be a model 27? with the exposed gear/brake lever, this model did have 106 wheelbase.

 

I think I am just going to have to take the 2000 klm round trip to take a look for myself.

As above, Au Buick's can/do vary from USA Buick's. And in Australia cars are often referred by date of manufacture and not "model year". In USA the next "model year" was introduced months before 1 Jan. 

 

The value of collectable cars in Australia is a lot different to USA.  This is a USA web site, with most posters from USA

 

To me 15792-2 does not appear in the BCA serial number range. May be a casting number

 

19 hours ago, Joe in Canada said:

Would they have shipped new USA made Buick's to a Commonwealth Country or only McLaughlin Buick's made in Canada?

USA Flint Buicks. As above may have local Au body.

 

BCA judging rev2 pg23 1904-1922.pdf

Edited February 20, 2018 by 1939_Buick (see edit history)

[Simon Anderson]

Here's an interesting picture, very similar to the car I am looking at, exposed gear and brake lever with a similar scuttle.

It was on the Buick AU site listed as a 1914. 

[tomcarnut]

Simon,

 

I am bit late to this discussion but I have a 1912 Buick Model 35 and 1912 McLaughlin- Buick Model 35 both with the same 165 CI engine and chassis. The Body of the McLaughlin is different than the Flint made body with a cowl but both have the shifter inside the body as have most 13 Buick model 25's I have seen. It was unusual to see the shifter on the outside but as Mark Shaw and other have stated, it might be due to shipping laws. I have toured quite a bit in the McLaughlin and it cruises nicely at 35-40 MPH on flat ground but has slightly different rear end ratio than most others that run better at 30-35 MPH.  I have not run the 12 Flint Buick yet as I inherited it from my Father and while it was almost completely restored about 15 years ago, it was never sorted out and has carb issues now and I have not had time to deal with them yet but hope to later this year after I get a 1911 T Ford back on the road after a cracked engine head issue last fall. One of the issues you must consider with a Buick or any non-Model T era brass car is the fact that you will have to make or have made any parts that fail. For a brass T, you can order most any mechanical parts you would need from numerous suppliers on the net for a very reasonable cost. With a Buick like this, no so. For example, the ring and pinion on my McLaughlin went out a few years ago and I had a new set made to the tune of $2000 vs $300 for a Model T. I had lot of other issues with the Rear end that made the $2000 ring and pinion cost pocket change. Got almost as much in the rear end as I paid for the car. Same thing if you have major engine or Tranny issues, be prepared to shell out big bucks or hot rod with other cars parts. A friend has a 1911 Overland his father modified years ago with 26 Chevy Rear end and Tranny. It also has cast Aluminum wheels that look like the wood ones. Wish I had done that with McLaughlin as I am grossly underwater. On a side note, my daughter met an Aussie in Perth, Au four years ago while student teaching. She stayed and they were married last year. I have made one trip to Australia so far but will be making some more in future.

 

Tom Muth

Cincinnati, Ohio