64 Front Disc Project

[CTX-SLPR]

Howdy,

 

Finally going to get my poop in a group and put out a thread on the front disc brake project I've been working on for what has to be 5yrs at least now.  I know this isn't for everyone and just like those bearing holders I posted earlier I don't really feel comfortable with putting this out for sale due to liability.

The basic components are

Nissan 87-94 R32 Skyline 4 piston calipers

1971-76 Riviera/73-87 C-10 HD front rotor and hub units, note it has to be the HD model of C-10 since they need to be 1.25in or 32mm thick

66-70 Riviera/65-70 Fullsized "symmetric" front spindle

Suitable wheels, in my case the 67-70 specific disc brake wheels

 

I choose the "symmetric" spindle since it allows you to bolt to the unused leading edge holes.  Obviously something has to bridge the gap between the caliper and the spindle.  

Edited February 12, 2018 by CTX-SLPR (see edit history)

[CTX-SLPR]

To fit inside of 15in wheels, that 12in rotor is pretty much as big as you can go, definitely so with the fixed 4-piston calipers that I prefer.

 

Fit the caliper up in free space with some bailing wire to hold it to the rotor and spindle, then slipped some cardboard under the caliper to hold it off of the rotor and bring the pads to the edge of the rotor for maximum bolt clearance to the spindle.

 

One of the bolt holes from the calipers is pretty much going to end up under the spindle body.  In this picture you can already see the start of a 3/8in plate steel bracket I was working up for the adapter.

 

There isn't much clearance between the stock wheel cylinder boss and the back of the rotor, only 3/16in.

 

This meant I pretty much had to machine down the boss 1/8in to it would have enough room for a bolt head since machining the spindle is cheaper than buying a counter sink and the more specialized 9/16-18NF counter sunk cap screws.  Overall that means I have one plane on the lower boss on one face of the 3/8in thick adapter, a middle plane 1/8in deeper for the caliper bolts, and a final 1/8in off of the backside to fit the upper bolt into.

I had the parts water jet cut off of the CAD model I designed but only the 2D bulk part was cut and I had to machine the rest.  You can see in the rendering the three different plane as well as that ball mill clearance for a stiffening rib on the caliper mount.

[CTX-SLPR]

Fast forward a lot of time since I've moved three times, and traveled a ton in my current job and I've finally wrapped up machining the 3D features into that bracket and getting it all fit up.

 

I did end up having to rethread the weird M13-1.75UF threads into 1/2-20's so I could actually get button head fasteners but it fits.

 

The caliper almost clear the wheels without a spacer but I didn't want to grind any on the stiffening ribs so I went ahead and just got a pair of 1/8in spacers off of eBay to hold the wheels off just a bit more.

 

Here it is from the front side

 

And a close up of the adapter on the back of the spindle

 

And a final picture with the raw adapter blank

[CTX-SLPR]

What's left

 

Mostly cosmetic work cleaning up the wheels, spindles, and brackets before prime and paint.  Functionally I need to bend and mount the hardline adapter to bridge to the braided steel flex lines and then install them.  Oh and I have to do the machine work on the other side but that I have mostly figured out so it's more execution vs. figuring it out.

 

Cosmetically I am considering machining the NISSAN off of the calipers but road wheels don't really show much so I'm not sold on doing that since it does slightly dampen the value of the calipers if I resell them later.

[RockinRiviDad]

VERY cool. 

[jsgun]

Interesting conversion, I like that kind of inventiveness. I hate 4 piston calipers though, the pads never seem to wear evenly.

[Hazdaz]

For those that have gone with a disc conversion, how much better does your car really stop? 

 

Before I got the Riv, I was expecting atrocious stopping from the stock drums, but I can honestly say I haven't had any braking issues (yet).  So while I purposefully don't push the car (its a cruiser, not corner carver), I am wondering how big of a difference would one realistically see with discs.  Would any improvements be in shorter stopping distances, better fade resistance (since discs are vented far better), or a combination of both?  Or is it more a function of the tires of the era that simply didn't have the grip to stop the car regardless of the brake-tech being used? 

 

 

[Bleach]

I had a 63 Riviera as an almost daily driver back in the early 90's. I recall the stopping power was excellent with the stock drums. The 67 and 68 Cadillacs with stock drums I had before the Riv were almost as good. I don't know if such a conversion will make enough difference.

[TexRiv_63]

The biggest difference is heat fade resistance. Drums can stop great the first time but they lose effectiveness with repeated short term use. Discs are also much more resistant to water fade.

[Bleach]

You're right Tex. I've had that issue on other cars like those with drums and no power brakes such as my 56 Ford. I never noticed any fade issues driving the Riviera or the Cadillacs in L.A. stop and go traffic back then.

[RivNut]

That's why Buick made their front drums 12" in diameter and 2.25" wide, made them from heat transferring aluminum, and put cooling fins on them.  I guess when I can't have drums relined any longer and a disk brake conversion is the only remaining alternative, I'll make the swap.  But that probably won't happen in my life time given my age. ?

[first64riv]

Being a former S14 owner with a Q45 brake upgrade, I like the outside the box thinking! 

[60FlatTop]

I have ridden with my Sister and highly recommend disc brakes on anything she drives. Me, not so much.

Bernie

[RivNut]

Somewhere along the way, my cousin and his wife both learned to brake with their left foot.  They have a tendency to ride the pedal. For them the disk brakes with their less chance of fade is a good thing.

[OldGerman]

The stopping power off the 12“ front drums is great compared to my 11“ drums on my 1966 Chrysler 300. I‘m more concerned about the front to rear power balance , which is about 56/44. My Riviera has always blocking rear wheels already on light breacking maneuver at a pedastrian crossing with a squicking sound like an emergency break, making people scared.

I will convert to a dual master cylinder for Safety reason and a manual adjusting valve für the rear break circuit, but I will stay with the original drums, because they seem to be adequat in Performance.

 

Frank

 

 

[CTX-SLPR]

This project isn't as direly critical as I once thought it was.  Since I've done some other work on the brake system, namely changed out the master to admittedly a disc unit and shortened the pedal ratio, the original drum brakes have been working much much better than they originally did when I couldn't get them to lock no mater how hard I tried.  I'm still going for discs since my goal for the car is something more canyon carver and backroad blaster.  I hope these things will be just as good if not better than the stock AlFin drums and will set the stage hardware wise for my later plans for more performance oriented wheels and tires that will allow even bigger brakes.  Sizing wise I'm taking my cues from HiPo SUV's that have popped up recently such as the Porsche Cayenne and the Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8.  But this is down the road a bit.

[telriv]

One thing no one ever thinks about, if using cast iron calipers & rotors, is the added unsprung weight. Makes a HUGE diff. in ride & handling. Put forged aluminum wheels on with the same tires over ANY steel wheel & one would be AMAAZED at the diff. One reason the aluminum drums are so hard to find in good shape is because us roundy-rounders used up so many. We would scrounge the yards for as many as we could get. Of course at the time they were like $10.00-$15.00 each. For our purposes they were BETTER than disc brakes because the cars handled so much better. Everyone is driving themselves CRAZY converting to discs which in MANY cases is not NEC. in my opinion the way MOST are drivin' today. YES, I have them on my '64 Riv. since the late 70's, but the way I drove my car then I NEEDED them, especially rat racing with Healy's, Alfa's & other foreign exotics. They couldn't believe how well the car handled & braked, especially when I passed them on the outside doing a four wheel drift. It would most times freak them out.  If EVERYTHING is working correctly in the 1st. place, with quality linings etc. there's just not a lot that can be improved upon.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

 

 

Tom T.

[RivNut]

Opinions wanted.

 

How many think that a disk brake setup on a first generation Riviera is more of a bling factor than a true improvement in braking performance?  No considerations for canyon carving, just day in day out daily driving.

[Bleach]

Bling. OEM was fine for me.

[60FlatTop]

1 hour ago, RivNut said:

How many think that a disk brake setup on a first generation Riviera is more of a bling factor than a true improvement in braking performance?

Forced, and only forced, to make a choice, I would do the disc brakes before putting an LS SBC in it. Superfluous modifications, both.

 

20 minutes ago I was sitting in my '64 Riviera tucked in the warm garage. "Bling" for me was spitting on my finger and rubbing the horn bar to a nice shine.

Bernie

[DualQuadDave]

7 hours ago, RivNut said:

Opinions wanted.

 

How many think that a disk brake setup on a first generation Riviera is more of a bling factor than a true improvement in braking performance?  No considerations for canyon carving, just day in day out daily driving.

Necessary, at least in So Fla.  Way too many idiot drivers and population density.  If this was asked 10+ years ago, my answer would be different.

[KongaMan]

Your steering wheel and a modicum of attentiveness will get you out of more situations than will disc brakes.

 

If you're involved in that many near misses, maybe you should modify your driving style instead of your brakes.

[Bleach]

Can't be any worse than Los Angeles even 25 years ago on both counts and I didn't have anything too close for comfort. What helped me drive more carefully was I had no seat belts in the Riv.

[60FlatTop]

In the late 1980's I was sorting out an early cogeneration project for Xerox in the Los Angles area. We took the freeway down to Huntington Beach one evening. I will never forget seeing a set of brake lights come on way up ahead of us and the the sequence of lights from every car between create this big wave of light coming toward us. It was, like, Wow, for a country kid. I'd say you have a lot of time to prepare for braking on the L A Freeway. Lots of preparation time for the attentive.

 

I just got back from a coffee break at the other end of town with my four wheel disc brake '94 Impala. I don't remember pulling into the driveway and breathing a sign of relief that they were able to withstand multiple panic stops without fade. In fact, I can't remember locking up the brakes on any of the disc brake cars. Maybe it's me.

Bernie

[CTX-SLPR]

20 hours ago, telriv said:

One thing no one ever thinks about, if using cast iron calipers & rotors, is the added unsprung weight. Makes a HUGE diff. in ride & handling. Put forged aluminum wheels on with the same tires over ANY steel wheel & one would be AMAAZED at the diff. One reason the aluminum drums are so hard to find in good shape is because us roundy-rounders used up so many. We would scrounge the yards for as many as we could get. Of course at the time they were like $10.00-$15.00 each. For our purposes they were BETTER than disc brakes because the cars handled so much better. Everyone is driving themselves CRAZY converting to discs which in MANY cases is not NEC. in my opinion the way MOST are drivin' today. YES, I have them on my '64 Riv. since the late 70's, but the way I drove my car then I NEEDED them, especially rat racing with Healy's, Alfa's & other foreign exotics. They couldn't believe how well the car handled & braked, especially when I passed them on the outside doing a four wheel drift. It would most times freak them out.  If EVERYTHING is working correctly in the 1st. place, with quality linings etc. there's just not a lot that can be improved upon.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

 

 

Tom T.

I'll weigh the stock setup and this setup with the spacers when I get them completed.  I'll leave the wheels out of it as the weights of the steelies and the road wheels is something I suspect is either covered or close enough to equal to not matter in this case.

 

For me I intend these to be more than bling, I intend to use them and their eventual replacements/upgrades.

[jsgun]

On ‎2‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 9:21 PM, KongaMan said:

Your steering wheel and a modicum of attentiveness will get you out of more situations than will disc brakes.

 

If you're involved in that many near misses, maybe you should modify your driving style instead of your brakes.

Nothing is that black and white man. Never been to California? I had manual drums on my mustang. Most roads in the desert are at least 50mph, and people like to pull out in front of you. There's at least 4 times I remember that I thought I was done, from a-holes in toyotas. I went to power, and it was a different car. Then went to disc, and it was a different car again. I'm sure the drums on buicks are friggin amazing, but nothing will ever top disc for panic situations.

[KongaMan]

10 hours ago, jsgun said:

Nothing is that black and white man. Never been to California?

I've lived there for over 20 years.

 

10 hours ago, jsgun said:

I had manual drums on my mustang.

 

Well, that's a POS car with POS brakes. Apples and oranges.  And that's the point: drum brakes aren't this monolithic technology wherein all applications are created equal.  Put front discs on a 64 Chevy and you'll see noticeable improvement.  Of course, you'd also get better performance from 12" drums.  Given that the Riviera starts with those 12" drums, the difference between those drums and discs is much smaller.  And that's what folks are saying: when you're talking about incremental improvements, it needs to be a significant increment to be worthwhile.  For many of us, that increment isn't large enough to justify the time, effort, and expense.

 

10 hours ago, jsgun said:

There's at least 4 times I remember that I thought I was done, from a-holes in toyotas. I went to power, and it was a different car. Then went to disc, and it was a different car again. I'm sure the drums on buicks are friggin amazing, but nothing will ever top disc for panic situations.

 

Nothing is that black and white man.

 

I live in a world of "driving is their next skill" drivers.  You wanna talk about folks pulling out in front of you?  Try dealing with roads full of Asian women in minivans.   Just the other day I'm going down a 6-lane road and the car in the left lane hangs a right turn across traffic while the car in the right lane is cutting across two lanes to turn left.  Keep your eyes open, leave space in front of you, and watch your mirrors so you know your evasion options.

 

Besides, there are almost always contributing factors in the near misses that I see.  That guy pulled out in front of you?  Yeah, but you were doing 45 in a 30.  The car in front of you stopped short for a yellow light?  Maybe so, but you were drafting him like you were Ricky Bobby.  Accidents are usually the result of compounded errors, by all parties involved.

 

[RivNut]

3 hours ago, KongaMan said:

I live in a world of "driving is their next skill" drivers.  You wanna talk about folks pulling out in front of you?  Try dealing with roads full of Asian women in minivans.   Just the other day I'm going down a 6-lane road and the car in the left lane hangs a right turn across traffic while the car in the right lane is cutting across two lanes to turn left.  Keep your eyes open, leave space in front of you, and watch your mirrors so you know your evasion options.

 

Besides, there are almost always contributing factors in the near misses that I see.  That guy pulled out in front of you?  Yeah, but you were doing 45 in a 30.  The car in front of you stopped short for a yellow light?  Maybe so, but you were drafting him like you were Ricky Bobby.  Accidents are usually the result of compounded errors, by all parties involved.

 

Where I live it's the bottle blonde millennials driving their Hyundai SUV's, who think they're driving a Mercedes around the Nurburgring, and act as though they're late to everything and have to explain why  over their cell phone to anyone who'll listen.   Headlights disappear in my rear view mirror thinking that if they push me I'll pull over, even though I'm already 10 over the speed limit trying to keep up with the flow of traffic and there's someone next to me in the other lane.  That's when my right foot gets light and I slow to a speed that won't cause major damage if I get rear ended.   Then by the grace of God they do get by me and wind up stopped at the next red light.   

[sixxer]

On 2/18/2018 at 2:54 PM, RivNut said:

Opinions wanted.

 

How many think that a disk brake setup on a first generation Riviera is more of a bling factor than a true improvement in braking performance?  No considerations for canyon carving, just day in day out daily driving.

 

Mine was completely for bling/factor front and rear. And I always hated working on drum brakes - doesn’t matter if they are superior. 

[60FlatTop]

On 2/21/2018 at 5:39 PM, RivNut said:

Where I live it's the bottle blonde millennials driving their Hyundai SUV's, who think they're driving a Mercedes around the Nurburgring, and act as though they're late to everything and have to explain why  over their cell phone to anyone who'll listen. 

 

I used to work where coworkers thought being cynical AND opinionated was being kind of greedy. Cynical AND opinionated makes me remember this famous statement.

 

[KongaMan]

4 hours ago, sixxer said:

 And I always hated working on drum brakes - doesn’t matter if they are superior. 

 

Now, that makes sense.

[sixxer]

I knew I could find one of my brethren!

[CTX-SLPR]

Updates on this project

Finished machining up the second caliper bracket

 

New shoes for the Riviera since the old tires are at least 12yrs old and probably more.  Just some basic Hankook 275/70R15's to get a decent tire that could last 2yrs or the next 12, who knows.  That's my daily driver in the background, 1982 Fuji Del Rey road bike.

 

Masked and painted the second set of wheels after knocking the centering rings out of them.  These are at the local America's Tire getting the tires installed today

 

Finished machining the brackets and yes the brackets are upside down in the picture compared to the spindles but I have mirror images and they fit on their respective spindles.  I did have to grind a bit on the spindle over the middle bolt and around the lower attach bolt since the castings were fairly rough.  Most of it was with a sanding drum and a hand file so the removal is fairly light but needed

 

I then went and painted the spindles, steering arms, and brackets Rustoleum Hi Temp silver

 

Now onto assembly...

 

And now they're pretty much done!  I do need to make a hardline that goes from the caliper to a bracket on that open bolt hole in the spindle to connect the shown braided steel line to the caliper.

 

Next month I'll get these mounted and bled since I need to get the car into the garage for that project and I'm not going to have time till then for the major work (i.e. patching up the rusty floor around the seat mounts) that goes along with rebuilding much of the front suspension to account for the lower weight in the nose.

[CTX-SLPR]

Well the hope the NISSAN wouldn't be seen was a bit off...

But it fits and clears and has enough clearance to be sufficient. Plumbed and bled too. Mark that project as done!

[RivNut]

14 minutes ago, CTX-SLPR said:

Well the hope the NISSAN wouldn't be seen was a bit off...

But it fits and clears and has enough clearance to be sufficient. Plumbed and bled too. Mark that project as done!

I would imagine that a grinder would make short work of that.

[CTX-SLPR]

If I really wanted to I'd put them in the mill and machine it off and paint them argent grey... however I feel like it would take a bit of the value off of them when I go to resell them after I'm done with this project.  240SX and the 300Z guys can bolt these straight on so there is some value there.