Mulling over a barn find

[MarkV]

So I found a 76 seville that has been sitting in storage for 30 years. It doesn't have the keys but cosmetically in great shape. First how would I tow? It's in park and what's involved with getting it running again?

Edited February 1, 2018 by MarkV (see edit history)

[C Carl]

Obviously the fuel/fuel injection system will need careful attention. You MUST replace all the rubber seals in the F.I. system. I see you have had a '77 , so you are probably aware of this.   - Carl

[fordrodsteven]

first off -  I like your Reatta avatar! Anyway. If the caddy is nose in it could be picked up with a tow truck at the rear (rear wheel drive) and towed with the front wheels on the ground. If it is situated "nose out" you could jack the rear to get it onto dollies and then roll it out to allow a tow truck to pick it from the rear once it's clear of the structure. If you're trying to get onto a flat bed truck it depends on whether you want to have it dragged with the rear wheel not turning. Another option is to get under it, disconnect the shift linkage and shift it into neutral. Problem is you won't be able to steer ti because the steering wheel is most likely locked.

[tripwire]

Maybe contact a locksmith to see if they can make keys using the VIN?

 

My 2¢.

 

 

[joe_padavano]

Congrats.  Towing is easy.  Pull the steering wheel, remove the lock plate, and temporarily lift the turn signal switch. This will let you remove the lock cylinder using a screwdriver to depress the spring loaded retention tab on the cylinder.  You do not need the key to do this.  Once the cylinder is out, reassemble the steering column and use a flat blade screwdriver to turn the key from LOCK to RUN. You can even try to start the car this way. This web site has photos of the process. Note that the website covers further disassembly of the column for other reasons.  Just stop at the step that removes the lock cylinder.

If you've owned a first gen Seville, you know this is an Oldsmobile-sourced 350 with an ancient analog EFI system.  It doesn't even use an O2 sensor. Sensors and other parts that tend to go bad are not readily available. Good luck.

[joe_padavano]

Let me add that if you do extract the ignition lock, I can cut a new key from the four character code stamped on the cylinder.  Email me privately at joe_padavano@rocketmail.com if interested.

[MarkV]

Yes the steering wheel is locked I may not have time to pull everything if I buy it, any other ideas? The car has 8500 miles and has been owned by the same person since 1988. He wants 500

[joe_padavano]

12 minutes ago, MarkV said:

Yes the steering wheel is locked I may not have time to pull everything if I buy it, any other ideas? The car has 8500 miles and has been owned by the same person since 1988. He wants 500

 

The only way to unlock the steering is to remove the wheel and the lock plate.  At that point it's about five more minutes to get the lock cylinder out.   The shift linkage can be disconnected under the hood.

[old car fan]

Not home yet,a bit new for me,but itwould be home

[CarlLaFong]

If originality is not of prime concern and you aren't in California, I'd find a four barrel manifold and slap a carburetor on it. I battled one of those FI systems until it beat me into submission

Edited February 1, 2018 by CarlLaFong (see edit history)

[MarkV]

I'm in ca unfortunately

[joe_padavano]

The Olds 350 was emissions certified with a carb also - in every other application that year except the Seville. It's legal either way.

[MarkV]

So I could do a carb? What kind and how do I smog it?

 

[CarlLaFong]

In California, every car has to first pass the visual test. If it  has been altered, modified or disconnected, you get the big goose egg

[joe_padavano]

1 minute ago, CarlLaFong said:

In California, every car has to first pass the visual test. If it  has been altered, modified or disconnected, you get the big goose egg

 

Not true. In CA it is legal to swap any motor that is the same year or newer, so long as it does not emit MORE pollutants than original.  It's legal in CA to swap a 700 HP LT9 motor into that car.  You have to go to a referee station for verification that all the emissions equipment for the swapped motor is in place and functioning.

[C Carl]

Wes , mull no longer. RUN , put the 5 bills in the owners hands , put the title in your pocket , and then come on back. The guys here , and on the Cadillac & LaSalle club tech forum , will get and keep you running. Take a few pics to share after you get the title. See you when you get back. Don't let anyone beat you to it. 8500 miles ! Wow !      - Cadillac Carl 

[joe_padavano]

I'll add that once you DO get the referee station to buy off on the swap, they affix a sticker like this. 

 

 

In this case, if the OP wanted a carbureted Olds 350, so long as the engine had the same carb, emissions equipment, etc from any other 1976 Olds 350, it would be a same-year swap of a certified configuration and thus be legal under CA law.

[MarkV]

What would I need for the swap

[C Carl]

GO...............GET ...........THAT ................SE .........VILLE. !!!  Everyone will still be here waiting for you. The car might not , at that price. GO !      - CC 

[old car fan]

Do you have some pics Would like to see them,my interest in caddys got lost in 72.

[Vila]

I am not sure about Cadillac, but some manufactures keep the key code records and to get a new key all you need is to supply the VIN.  I recently needed a new door handle with integrated lock for one of my BMWs and all I had do was provide the VIN and it was shipped with the lock coded.

 

Not sure if the American manufactures have this capability, but worth asking a dealer if they can make keys from the VIN for a 1976 Seville.

[C Carl]

Looks like Wes has gone to get it. You just have to move fast for the super bargains. Look what just happened to Joe over in Ontario, Canada. The 1910 Reo in Yakima , WA ? You just can't snooze. I am way past the point of acquiring cars anymore , but I used to enjoy bottom feeding on low hanging fruit. That bargain basement Reo was about 40 miles from my shop. All slow , scenic , low density backroads that I occasionally drive for the fun of it. I would pay good money just to do it one time in a 1910 Reo. And then to own it to take that drive anytime I feel like ? You just can't assume someone 20 years younger than I am is not in such an advantageous position. 8500 mile 1976 Sevilles "cosmetically in good shape" don't come around every year for $4000. Much less $500.  - CC

[CarlLaFong]

1 hour ago, MarkV said:

What would I need for the swap

I would guess the manifold, carb and, if I remember correctly, the FI had a different distributor. Possibly a fuel pump, too. The distributor may be a non issue but, if not, it's a generic AC/Delco unit. The carb would be whatever the Olds came with, probably a Q-Jet. I would source all of the correct Olds parts, get it running, be sure it has a factory air cleaner, ect., and take it to the smog guy. Who knows, it might just pass without a bunch of funny business. You have nothing to loose.

First, try to fire it up, as is. You might hit the lottery

[C Carl]

Totally agree. There are early F.I. wizards on CLC , and elsewhere ready to help you. You may or may not want to change it. Do you California guys know if modern , state-of-the-art aftermarket F.I. systems pass CA emissions ?   - Carl 

[joe_padavano]

1 hour ago, C Carl said:

Totally agree. There are early F.I. wizards on CLC , and elsewhere ready to help you. You may or may not want to change it. Do you California guys know if modern , state-of-the-art aftermarket F.I. systems pass CA emissions ?   - Carl 

 

Only if they have a C.A.R.B. Exemption, which means that they have gone through a rigorous emissions certification.  The problem is that such certifications are application specific. You may find one certified for a small block Chevy. I can guarantee you won't find one certified for an Olds 350.

 

As for the factory system, again, these are ANALOG computers, not digital.  They cannot be reprogrammed (at least, not easily). The system runs open loop all the time - there is no oxygen sensor. The distributor is a unique HEI unit that has a separate RPM sensor below the main body of the distributor.  The injectors are dimensionally unique to this application. The fuel pump is a electric unit.  I would certainly try to resurrect the stock EFI - it's a unique piece of history.  The problem is that replacement parts, if needed, are extremely difficult to find. I do have one of the factory Seville service manuals for this car that completely describes the EFI system.  This should be the first thing you get.

[Rusty_OToole]

76 Seville is a cool car. I noticed back in the day that owners tended to keep these first generation Sevilles a long, long time even though they could afford a new car. I took from that, that they loved their Sevilles and enjoyed driving them.

 

$500 is the buy of the year.  You will  need new battery, tires, brakes, probably to clean out the gas tank. I would not be too quick to tear out the fuel injection until I did some more research and checked the car carefully. I would check the tank for old gas and clean it out. Then I think I would check the ignition and make sure it is working, cross my fingers and try firing it up. You never know your luck.

 

They were a simple system based on a Bosch system that was one of the first electronic fuel injections. There is a good chance other Seville fans have solved any parts and repair problems long ago. You might want to look up some Cadillac web sites and forums.

[misterc9]

I have had a mobile locksmith come to the car and pick the ignition lock without taking it apart. He then made a key for it in his van. The only hitch is not everybody stocks the old GM key blanks.

[C Carl]

Does anyone know how much interchangeability, (or specific lack thereof) , there is between the Seville F.I. and the systems on the Cad 500s and 425s of the period ?   - CC

[John_S_in_Penna]

14 hours ago, C Carl said:

... 8500 mile 1976 Sevilles "cosmetically in good shape" don't come around every year for $4000. Much less $500. 

 

There certainly are low-mileage Cadillacs around,

since their owners tended to be older.  But as a

potential buyer, I wouldn't believe the mileage without

documentation:  Old repair records, mileage logs, etc.

Even though the car looks great cosmetically, the

mileage could easily be 108,500.

 

A low-mileage car is interesting to talk about, but

noted automotive author Tim Howley wrote a good article

warning about low-mileage cars.  They have low mileage

because they sat idly for many, many years;  so rather than

being an asset, they'll likely have MORE items to address:

fuel system, exhaust, even transmission.

 

You're experienced in cars, Mr. Mark V, so these shouldn't

be problems at all.  Just go into the situation with your eyes open.

[joe_padavano]

8 hours ago, C Carl said:

Does anyone know how much interchangeability, (or specific lack thereof) , there is between the Seville F.I. and the systems on the Cad 500s and 425s of the period ?   - CC

 

Almost none.  The Seveille used an Olds 350.  Throttle body, injectors, intake, distributor, all different.

[MarkV]

3 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

 

There certainly are low-mileage Cadillacs around,

since their owners tended to be older.  But as a

potential buyer, I wouldn't believe the mileage without

documentation:  Old repair records, mileage logs, etc.

Even though the car looks great cosmetically, the

mileage could easily be 108,500.

 

A low-mileage car is interesting to talk about, but

noted automotive author Tim Howley wrote a good article

warning about low-mileage cars.  They have low mileage

because they sat idly for many, many years;  so rather than

being an asset, they'll likely have MORE items to address:

fuel system, exhaust, even transmission.

 

You're experienced in cars, Mr. Mark V, so these shouldn't

be problems at all.  Just go into the situation with your eyes open.

Even at 108k if it is, it is still a good deal. I'm going to see it today if my schedule opens up.

[John348]

I am pretty sure that they used the Bendix fuel injection, the fuel filter for those FI Caddy's can be used for the Cosworth Vega's which use the Bendix system.I remember someone telling me that Cadillac used the same or very similar system, If so  there are two pumps. low pressure in the tank and a high pressure under the car. The Bendix fuel injection was giving me a ton of problems, I was lucky to find a set weber carbs and intake. I had replaced the tank pump with a V-6 Camaro/Firebird Pump and had to do some fabrication on the sending unit for it to work but it was rather simple, just time consuming  

Edited February 2, 2018 by John348 (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

If the fuel injection system is a write off (unlikely) I would look into the Megasquirt system. This is a home made control system that works with any fuel injection and cost $140 last time I looked.

 

Most likely it will need the tank cleaned and possibly the injectors cleaned. Much easier and cheaper to fix the old system than tear it out and start from scratch. As I said before, check with some Cadillac forums. I am sure any problems have been solved long ago by other owners.

[joe_padavano]

2 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

If the fuel injection system is a write off (unlikely) I would look into the Megasquirt system.

 

 

You missed the part where the OP pointed out that he lives in Calif and is subject to emissions inspection (yes, 1976-up).  The Megasquirt is a non-starter for that unless you can very carefully disguise all the wiring and sensors to look like OEM.  That's not impossible, by the way.  I'll also point out that at least one person has converted this system to digital EFI using a GM ECU from a Chevy Tuned Port Injection system.  It's speed-density, batch fire.

 

 

 

[Rusty_OToole]

So you are saying it is possible to keep the fuel injection? Worst case, might need to change to a more modern control system?

 

I'm familiar with the Bosch system as used on VW and BMW. It is very simple with 4 or 5 inputs for temp, throttle position, barometric pressure etc. The so called computer is not a computer at all but an electronic control box. The ones I have worked on, in almost every case, were easy and cheap to fix. The problems were mainly cracked leaky vacuum hoses, hoses missing or misrouted, and wiring not making a good connection due to being frayed loose or corroded. Injectors, pumps etc were very reliable. Everyone always wanted to replace the "computer" first thing but I never found one bad.  You need to get the factory manuals or equivalent and diagnose the problem. The worst messes I had to straighten out, were untrained mechanics getting ideas of their own and tearing everything apart. Then saying "it must be the computer".

Edited February 3, 2018 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Bloo]

Once again, Rusty nails it. I cant imagine this being any tougher to support in 2018 than a Quadrajet, particularly if it has to be a "correct" one to pass some visual inspection.

 

Are there some bad sensors? Yes, probably a pile of them after this many years. It is still a simple fuel injection system. A Quadrajet on the other hand, if it needs any more than a kit and a float, and a lot of them do..... 

 

Quadrajet bodies warp. People cross-thread and strip the fuel inlet.. Throttle shafts (and sometimes the butterflies) often need to be replaced. If the secondaries leak air , the carb  just dumps fuel. 30 years ago there were specialists everywhere who could handle the machine work necessary, and could even straighten castings and provide replacements out of the junkpile if necessary. As far as I know those guys are all retired now. Today I think you would mail it off to a specialist somewhere and hope for the best.

 

Bendix EFI huh? The only "pattern failure" I remember on those was the fuel pump circuit. The fuel pump was switched directly by the ECM ("computer") without a relay. If it wont run check the voltage at the fuel pump. It might be low or nonexistant. The fuel pump circuit overheats and burns up the circuit board, sometimes literally burning a hole in it. If it still switches at all, you can add a relay (switched by the old fuel pump lead from the ECM) and get things working again. Otherwise, you need to open up the ECM and try to repair the smoking hole in the circuit board, or get a replacement ECM.

 

 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Bloo (see edit history)

[John348]

39 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

So you are saying it is possible to keep the fuel injection? Worst case, might need to change to a more modern control system?

 

I'm familiar with the Bosch system as used on VW and BMW. It is very simple with 4 or 5 inputs for temp, throttle position, barometric pressure etc. The so called computer is not a computer at all but an electronic control box. The ones I have worked on, in almost every case, were easy and cheap to fix. The problems were mainly cracked leaky vacuum hoses, hoses missing or misrouted, and wiring not making a good connection due to being frayed loose or corroded. Injectors, pumps etc were very reliable. Everyone always wanted to replace the "computer" first thing but I never found one bad.  You need to get the factory manuals or equivalent and diagnose the problem. The worst messes I had to straighten out, were untrained mechanics getting ideas of their own and tearing everything apart. Then saying "it must be the computer".

 

I think that is why this car was sitting with such low mileage, probably got screwed up with someone trying to fix it only making it worse. What I found to be one of the  contributing factors to failure besides what was already mentioned with the fuel pumps is that everything is controlled with 1955 wiring harness technology regulating controls that resistance sensitive . Too many places to gain resistance. 

I know the sensors for the Cosworth are pretty hard to come by, I don't know about the Cadillac.   

[Rusty_OToole]

I agree, early EFI used standard type electrical connections and they were prone to failure or excess resistance. From the mid 80s up they had much more sophisticated connectors with strong hard plastic blocks and silicone seals. These are nearly immune to corrosion and getting pulled apart by accident.

 

The sensors on the early Bosch systems were analogue and very robust. But of course, after 40 years anything can happen. But they are easy to test with a simple multi meter and you know at once if they are good or not. In many cases a shot of contact cleaner sets them right.

 

I wouldn't be afraid of the fuel injection but then I know a little about them. You don't have to be a fuel injection expert but you need a little background in electrics and electronics, and you must be able to understand and follow simple instructions without flying off the handle.

[joe_padavano]

Here's a listing of the EFI diagnostic flowcharts for the Seville.  I would still suggest a real factory service manual.

 

http://www.cadillacseville.org/technical.html

[joe_padavano]

9 hours ago, mike6024 said:

 

http://www.autozone.com/repairinfo/repairguide/repairGuideContent.jsp?pageId=0900c152801c84fa

 

FI should be kept original and will need servicing. Clean or replace injectors and many other things. Yes a factory service manual is the thing to get.

 

 

 

Well, for starters, do NOT use Autozone as a technical reference.  That photo shows a Chevy throttle body injector.  The Seveille EFI is a PORT injection system.  It is also an analog system, not digital.