Phantom electrical issue?

[RivNut]

On 1/29/2018 at 5:34 PM, 1965rivgs said:

DShoes,

Do not simply "clean" the terminal on the large red wire at the ignition switch, REPLACE it. That terminal no longer has the properties which enable it to "grab" the male terminal of the ignition switch due to mettalurgical changes from heating and cooling cycles. If you replace the plastic housing but fail to also replace the female terminal it will melt again. If you cannot find a complete "pigtail", which is the plastic housing with new terminals and a short wire length, a used plastic housing and NEW terminal are available. I would also recommend the appropriate crimping tool for packard connectors. Dont want to see another Riviera go up in flames!

  Tom Mooney

Look on-line or at a full line jobbers for Auveco electrical terminals. Male and female as were original.  They also make insulators to go with the terminals.  

 

 

They also make the "shells" that insulate them.  Parts #8774, 8775, 8776, and 8777.

 

Get a good set of crimp pliers, not the universal kind that will measure, cut, strip, and crimp.

Like these  https://www.harborfreight.com/9-1-2-half-inch-wire-crimping-tool-36411.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[KongaMan]

12 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

Take a couple of weeks to get steeped  in some good automotive electrical learning and avoid the anecdotal advice.

 

Except that anecdotal advice is often someone else's experience.  I mean, who ya gonna listen to: the guy who says "I read about that." or the guy who says "I've done that."?

[DShoes]

1 hour ago, KongaMan said:

 

Except that anecdotal advice is often someone else's experience.  I mean, who ya gonna listen to: the guy who says "I read about that." or the guy who says "I've done that."?

 

Haha! If nothing else, I do love the personalities on here!

[1965rivgs]

9 hours ago, RivNut said:

Look on-line or at a full line jobbers for Auveco electrical terminals. Male and female as were original.  They also make insulators to go with the terminals.  

 

 

They also make the "shells" that insulate them.  Parts #8774, 8775, 8776, and 8777.

 

Get a good set of crimp pliers, not the universal kind that will measure, cut, strip, and crimp.

Like these  https://www.harborfreight.com/9-1-2-half-inch-wire-crimping-tool-36411.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ed, et al.

  Auveco is an aftermarket company. I believe the originals are Packard or Delco/Packard or some combination of those names depending upon time frame and who bought who. But I have used these Auveco aftermarket terminals and they worked out OK. There are several types of crimping tools which are available to properly install these terminals. I remember a Packard crimping tool which was exteremely expensive back in the day but did a great job. There are other more affordable and simple tools for the home hobbyist which do the same job but are a little less user friendly. No matter the source of the tool what you want is a crimper which crimps both the wire in the terminal and the insulation at the same time. The crimper in the center of the pic in the link Ed sent is not that type. The crimper in the lower right corner is is the type which will make both crimps at the same time. I have this crimper and dont care for it. The quality of the crimp is not what I like and this crimper is bulky to use, especially in tight places. I would post a pic of the other crimpers I have but they are in my shop which is 25 miles away. I dont remember the source, probably the Matco or Snap On tool truck...but they are out there. Do a search and use Delco/Packard or GM in the search. Take a good look at the jaw of the crimper and you will see a double step surface in each location in the jaw. One step is tighter than the other because it crimps the wire and terminal. The other jaw will be more open, or have a larger space, because it is intended to crimp the terminal to the insulation.

  Tom

  Tom

[RivNut]

I did a search for the Packard crimper and found one for a little over $170.  I think that I can do two separate crimps with a less expensive tool. ? The one I pictured from Harbor Freight is only for the picture, I actually have a Klein one. I think it was about $30.

 

I didn't mean to insinuate that the Auveco terminals were what was used originally, but that they're of the same general design.  They have the tangs that secure them in  the shell/insulator and require the Lisle tool that Bernie pictured earlier for release.   I've never had a problem with them pulling loose if crimped properly.

 

Ed

[60FlatTop]

Here is a picture of the extent of my electrical hand tools unless you count a soldering iron. The green tool is the Lisle terminal tool.

And that is a '64 Riviera harness disassembled to be repaired and rewrapped with non-adhesive tape. I also have a short piece of 2x6 with a row of finishing nails on one edge. I put that in a vise to tension the wires while I wrap.

 

Notice the work is being done on a folding table. The picture is from around 1994. I had my home garage built in 1988. By that time, and still today, I do most of my work on folding tables that lean against the wall when not in use. I have never seen a psychiatric term called "flat surface syndrome"  but it must exist.

 

Oh, the can of lacquer thinner is for cleaning the wire ends where the used car lot detail man painted everything black.

[Seafoam65]

This is something I need to address on my car......the ignition key gets very warm after driving the car for a half hour. My car only has

57,000 miles on it so these switches don't take many key cycles to burn up.

 

[KongaMan]

Which begs the question: which circuit is heating up?  The ignition doesn't draw that much current; it is likely the accessories which are responsible.  Although a lot of the high-draw components (windows, lights, etc.) don't go through the switch, those that do (blower, etc.) are substantial enough to put a strain on the wiring.  You could probably get away without a relay on the starter circuit.  Even though it's a long run and a heavy draw, it's a really short duty cycle (might save your neutral safety switch, though).  In any event, you could probably eliminate the warm key problem with one relay. 

[Seafoam65]

                      99 per cent probability it is the red wire connection at the switch. When i fix it I'm going to put the wire

on a relay to take the load off the switch.

[1965rivgs]

6 hours ago, RivNut said:

I did a search for the Packard crimper and found one for a little over $170.  I think that I can do two separate crimps with a less expensive tool. ? The one I pictured from Harbor Freight is only for the picture, I actually have a Klein one. I think it was about $30.

 

I didn't mean to insinuate that the Auveco terminals were what was used originally, but that they're of the same general design.  They have the tangs that secure them in  the shell/insulator and require the Lisle tool that Bernie pictured earlier for release.   I've never had a problem with them pulling loose if crimped properly.

 

Ed

Yes Ed, as I stated the "genuine" Packard crimper is expensive. There are cheaper alternatives but the jaws must have a projection in the middle which folds the "wings" of the terminal to the inside and down as you complete the crimp. If you look at a factory crimp, what I describe will be evident. A regular pair of oval shaped jaws will not duplicate the same crimp.

  Tom

Edited January 31, 2018 by 1965rivgs (see edit history)

[1965rivgs]

24 minutes ago, KongaMan said:

Which begs the question: which circuit is heating up?  The ignition doesn't draw that much current; it is likely the accessories which are responsible.  Although a lot of the high-draw components (windows, lights, etc.) don't go through the switch, those that do (blower, etc.) are substantial enough to put a strain on the wiring.  You could probably get away without a relay on the starter circuit.  Even though it's a long run and a heavy draw, it's a really short duty cycle (might save your neutral safety switch, though).  In any event, you could probably eliminate the warm key problem with one relay. 

The combined amp draw of all the circuits which are not unloaded thru a relay enter the switch via the red battery lead wire...so that wire, because it carries all the amps into the switch, shows the effect of heating and cooling before the other wires which feed individual circuits.

As I stated in my first post, there is a possibility an issue on any of the circuits could cause the overheating/excessive amp draw thru the switch but I have seen this sort of deterioration when all is well more frequently as compared to a short or excessive amp draw.

  Tom

[KongaMan]

13 minutes ago, 1965rivgs said:

The combined amp draw of all the circuits which are not unloaded thru a relay enter the switch via the red battery lead wire...so that wire, because it carries all the amps into the switch, shows the effect of heating and cooling before the other wires which feed individual circuits.

As I stated in my first post, there is a possibility an issue on any of the circuits could cause the overheating/excessive amp draw thru the switch but I have seen this sort of deterioration when all is well more frequently as compared to a short or excessive amp draw.

  Tom

 

That's true, but there won't be nearly as many amps going through that red wire (or the switch) if the ACC feed goes to a relay instead of directly to the fuse box. If you think that deterioration is a function of current draw, then putting a relay on the ACC circuit will help to mitigate a problem with the battery lead.  The other high draw circuit feeding from that red wire is the starter.  Put a relay on that circuit as well, and you reduce the maximum current through the red wire and switch to a fraction of its present value.  At that point, the only current through the red wire, switch, and connectors would be that required to power the ignition and two relays.  That low draw shouldn't present any problems at all.

 

One might also suggest that if you see deterioration at the red wire, then by definition, all is not well.  IOW, you're seeing the failure of an under-engineered component.

[1965rivgs]

23 hours ago, KongaMan said:

 

That's true, but there won't be nearly as many amps going through that red wire (or the switch) if the ACC feed goes to a relay instead of directly to the fuse box. If you think that deterioration is a function of current draw, then putting a relay on the ACC circuit will help to mitigate a problem with the battery lead.  The other high draw circuit feeding from that red wire is the starter.  Put a relay on that circuit as well, and you reduce the maximum current through the red wire and switch to a fraction of its present value.  At that point, the only current through the red wire, switch, and connectors would be that required to power the ignition and two relays.  That low draw shouldn't present any problems at all.

 

One might also suggest that if you see deterioration at the red wire, then by definition, all is not well.  IOW, you're seeing the failure of an under-engineered component.

You asked "which circuit is heating up?" My reply was to point out that the heat is being generated on the feed of the switch, not a switched circuit. Is it possible one of the switched circuits is the culprit? I`ve already stated so several times in this thread because I have found this to be true in isolated cases.

My reference to "all is well" was in regard to the switched circuits operating as originally intended, not the original engineering of the circuit as a whole. Was the circuit layout poorly engineered? Maybe. Are the cars well beyond their intended life cycle? Definitely.

 To add a relay to reduce load on a switch when needed? Seems like overstating the obvious but sure, knock your socks off...

Tom

[Grimy]

On ‎1‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 12:01 PM, 60FlatTop said:

a psychiatric term called "flat surface syndrome" 

As a very good friend says, "horizontal surfaces are the enemies of order" and I'm living proof!

[KongaMan]

33 minutes ago, 1965rivgs said:

You asked "which circuit is heating up?" My reply was to point out that the heat is being generated on the feed of the switch, not a switched circuit. Is it possible one of the switched circuits is the culprit? I`ve already stated so several times in this thread because I have found this to be true in isolated cases.

Understood.  The point is that the circuits coming from that main feed do not draw equally.  As such, remediation efforts are best directed at the circuit(s) which are responsible for high draw.  In that same vein, it's not just possible that one of the switched circuits is the culprit; it's inescapable.  Drop the current through that connector and switch, and the problems disappear. Look at it this way: if the key gets warm and the connector from the battery feed to the ignition switch is burned, pitted, and/or melted, do you just let it go until it burns through or catches on fire because it still works?

 

It should also be mentioned that there are ancillary benefits to adding relays to the ACC and/or starter circuits.  To wit, you'll see better performance from the high draw accessories (blower, wipers, etc.) and the starter as you lessen the inherent voltage drop in the original circuit.  You'll also prevent damage to other components (e.g. NSS and ignition switch).  Folks don't seem to think that adding relays to the headlight circuit is ill-advised or excessive. Are the reasons for that not the same as the reasons for addressing the same problem in the ignition switch?