oldcar

1922 Fiat 501 Targa Florio

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Now back to more mundane things.....
Regarding the generator, having sent all the spiders on their way, dragging their webs behind them, I have now dismantled fully one generator/dynamo and have just one recalcitrant screw to remove before I can take the second one apart, Next week I will take both armatures to be checked on a “growler”.  If one of the two proves to be ok I can reassemble one generator, the second one had a crack through the aluminium section of the housing, making it good only for spares. I should have sufficient usable carbon brushes to assemble one generator. While I am feeling “sparky” I may as well look at at least one of my four starter motors.
In the past I have used the Indian Gentlemen at Springvale to rewind my armatures. Do any of the Melbournians reading this know of any other friendly armature winders?

As the Rice Bubble adverts used to tell us,
Snap Crackle and Pop!
Nice clear blue sparks are said to be sign of a healthy electrical leak,
usually the smoke comes “shortly” after.

Bernie j.

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On ‎5‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 9:14 PM, oldcar said:

Hello Paul

I have uncovered a real "Pandora's box" of info through the link you found. This link took me to some very good videos from the same person "fiatguy"  he made a series of videos about his experiences working on his Fiat. Just what I saw in a few minutes will have saved me a whole lot of trouble when dismantling the rear axle.

Thank you.

Bernie j.

 

Glad to help a little Bernie! I had looked at that rear axle video, and the disassembly was amazingly simple. Very interesting how the axle is designed/constructed.

 

EDIT: I saw on the British car forum that Helen had surgery. Tell her that we are wishing her a speedy recovery. Hope you are a good nurse Bernie. :)

Edited by r1lark (see edit history)

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I picked this up at the library. It seems to be written in a language I am not familiar with; but giving it a try nonetheless.

 

 

Jeeves.jpg

 

 

Edited by mike6024 (see edit history)

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It may take you a little while to understand, It is one of PGW's later works being written in1960. He was first published in 1902 and wrote about 130 books, I have a small collection including some of his earlier work including his second book, A Prefect's Uncle (1903) and one other pre WW1. The 1913 "The Little Nugget". Probably his most prolific period was "between the wars". He lived in and wrote about life in America for a number of years.  You probably need some understanding of "life of the English upper crust during the 1920s & 30s" .The sort of people who bought Lagondas when they were new in the 1930s. That and the role played by some of the "Buttlers" employed by these people, It is all a bit "tongue in cheek". I have just finished reading "Barmy in Wonderland' written in America in 1952 and basically talks about the trials and tribulations of a young "English-man's" efforts to break into "Show Business"in America. I will now start to re-read Jeeves in the offing.

I do hope that you enjoy his somewhat strange sense of humour. 

 

From time to time I threaten to sell my "collection" but never seem to quite get around to it.#

 

Pip Pip 

 

Bernie j.176598486_JeevesintheOffing.jpeg.170e3b5e2f573d92852a185ef15c8716.jpeg

DSCN5985.jpg.144f79dcb4b0176f42ffadba7f1c81a6.jpg

 

# Or, as one of my very English friends would insist "get a round toit"........

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)

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Changing the subject ever so slightly and going back to the Fiat, I now have the Smiths Rim Wind clock. After giving it a gentle wind, not "fully" in respect of its age and rarity and I was somewhat disappointed when I could not hear it "ticking". Not feeling too optimistic I set the hands to 12.00 (Midnight) and left it on my desk. It was not until a day or two later that I noticed that the "Hands had moved". Slightly doubtful, I reset it back to 12.00 again and gave the rim another gentle twirl,  I still cannot hear any sign that it is running but again after leaving it over-night the hands had  moved yet again. Still doubtful I have again reset the hands to the present time. I will again leave it on my desk and wait to see if it is still running and how well it is "keeping time".

 

Bernie j.DSCN5986.jpg.8299c05e71b06eb199225d9508c45596.jpg

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)

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Hello John

I bought it from eBay and I am amazed that it is even working.

It is now 9.45 pm our time and it is still keeping up.

The clock in the Lagonda needs some work but I have not bothered, it's ticking could be heard inside the house with all the windows and doors closed. Like a lot of car clocks, if I remove it from the dashboard and place it on its back on a shelf in my "study". It may run for a day or two then again it may need to be put either face down of on its side. It too is a Smiths Clock but a small 2 inch with Lagonda written across the dial. IF we manage to do another overseas trip with the Rapier I may go to the trouble of having it "over-hauled". It has been suggested that  I could possibly have a small battery/electric fitted into the case.

 

Bj.

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Back to the real "stuff"....

I think that today has been quite productive, having finished cleaning the 'brush holders" I could start to re-assemble the generator.

After a break for one of Helen's delicious lunches I could get on with the task. This  included cleaning up the end of the comutater shaft where it had been dropped at some time in the past. My new set of Metric taps and dies actually got some use with the 12mm x 1.75 die was run down the thread on the end of the shaft and its matching tap run through the nut. This being done the nut threaded its way down the shaft without any need to force it . I will need to take the sprocket out to Steve so he can set it up in his lathe and straighten it. It too appears to have been dropped with the full weight of the generator on it. Considering how long it had been stored and how grotty it was I an happy with the result. only problem is that it may be some time before it will be actually doing anything more. It is chain driven from the front of the timing gears and the chain has to be in place before I can fit either the timing case or the sump. Tomorrows task will be fitting the carbon brushes and completing the internal wiring.

 

 

 

 

DSCN5995.jpg.54398940cb770c5672c439d9d5836b2b.jpgDSCN5994.jpg.9fa8e66c4a6570f3c05d2be425dc0453.jpg272590932_DynamoDrawing.jpeg.9dcff14db2e3a4980fafe119f7b81f5c.jpeg

583490515_Generator3rdBrushtype..jpeg.8fc582ab9cdcd8866ddfba607a6b82e8.jpegDSCN5993.jpg.01a9f69cbfcf42c29ddce434a3f7d3ca.jpg

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)

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Getting in ahead of all the people who are wondering what the thread like groove around the waist of the generator is for. The bolt the tightens the clamping action of the mount also runs in this groove turning the generator around on its longitudinal axis allowing the chain drive to be tightened of slackened off. 

 

Bj.

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)

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Hello John

All these things I am gradually learning. Having looked in a number of places I now know that the Fiat runs on a 12 Volt system, I still have to discover the polarity. 

 

Thanks for asking.

 

Bernie j. 

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Hi Bernie, 501s run a 12v system with a positive ground.

 

On the topic of electrics, we bought a wiring harness from a company named "vintage wiring harnesses" I believe, all original cloth braided wire and the fit was perfect. It was a bit pricey, but nice to have something that was plug and play for a change! 

 

Cheers, Brodie

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Hello Brodie

Thank you. I have been meaning to "touch base" with you. I am slowly learning about Fiats, all the ones that I have owned previously were from the 1950s and later, Topolinos, Millicentos, the 1300/850 based race car and the Osca engined sports roadster. Now one of our sons, Steve, has bought a "kit" of 501 parts too. Work on my 501 has slowed over the past two or three weeks but I still manage to do "something" on it but not every day. My wife, Helen's recovery after her hip replacement takes priority.

 

Bernie j.

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Hello all,

Friday morning in East Doncaster (where we live in Aust) tends to be devoted to our weekly Shopping for all the normal things, meat, grocery, fruit and veg etc. This left me with an hour or two to finish the cover for the bursh gear on the generator of if you are frightfully posh the  dynamo. I my age group a Dynamo was the little gadget mounted on one side of the front forks of your bicycle. This had a little wheel than ran against the front tyre (tire) to generate the electricity for the head and tail lamp if you were out riding after dark.

Either way "it" is now virtually ready to be fitted onto the Fiat engine. Once it is in place with its drive chain fitted and adjusted for tension. I can start thinking about fitting the sump and timing chest cover. Here are some photographs of this afternoon's work.

 

Bernie j.DSCN5997.jpg.87aa7eb5a92137d1b5f13f307c02d264.jpgDSCN5996.jpg.7f2f7074eee5b8f63a9ac797d1009c8d.jpgDSCN5999.jpg.188b1a87074d5b11a851e879743f79f2.jpg

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)

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Another day and just a little bit more progress, The one problem  that is becoming apparent is that for every component I bolt onto the engine it becomes that bit heavier. Oh Well!. I am not planing to tear it all apart but the sooner I can lift it into the chassis the better.

 

DSCN6006.jpg.cb77fd30ccce59f3d707fd584812af5d.jpg

 

DSCN6005.jpg.15501b5a22bf0d098594b27224b9089b.jpg

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Looking good Bernie! I like the shade of red on the block and head, I painted mine black but its a bit generic.

 

Where'd you source the new spark plugs from? I've got a feeling my spark is breaking down under cylinder pressure occasionally causing missfire.

 

Brodie

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Hi Brodie

I got then some time ago from the internet. I think that there are two or there sites with them. I tend to go my own way with colour schemes and I have had such a time with members of my family because I used to paint everything green over green.

The Fiat is having Red and Off-white,  what in the early 1920s was referred to as Blood & Bandages as applied to the architecture of public buildings with red brick and sandstone trim. The actual colours are Kil-rust paint's "Deep Indian Red & Kosisko Pebble". The plan is to base my 501 on Elizabeth Junek's first "race car". She was a young Czech lady who went on to become famous as a Lady race driver for Bugatti. You could say that her Fiat was more a "touring" version of the Targa Florio 501s. The double tailed Lion is from the Czech coat of arms.

Bernie j,

634633512_MadamJunek1.JPG.6201ae301f200cc05470607714b08b09.JPGtwo_tailed_czech_lion_a.jpg.75b1a4505ab886dd6560926606791951.jpg

 

I have used the same Deep Indian Red before on a very "special"Dodge 4.1370651376_FlyingFour008.jpg.5409cf0da8d787a2c267c0c3dcf13c7c.jpg1352624106_FlyingFour1jpg.jpg.aff12bbc78985e768b0c7fb0fa1cff75.jpg

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)

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Hi Mike

Thank you for finding that most interesting Video. 

I have a friend in the Czech Republic who has suggested that she may be able to source some more info regarding Madame Junek.

 

Thank you too JP928 for the link re  Spark plugs.

 

Bj.

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There is an old song/saying "Little things mean a lot". For some one brought up on British cars with their "Simms Couplings" as the almost infinitely adjustable magneto drive it came as something of a shock that despite looking everywhere I could not find anything similar coupling on the Fiat engine. Just a flat disc without even one hole in it. I clould not find any reference to a Magneto coupling in even one of the three "owners" hand books and the diagram in the "Spare parts book" did not help.

The "driven" plate on the magneto is similar but at least it has three evenly spaced holes in it. 

I will come back to the mystery of the Magneto coupling  shortly,  meanwhile I have another little Fiat trick for you to sort out.

This strange looking "bolt" is a genuine original Fiat part No 38500 as shown in the Parts Book (below).

What is it and how does it work? If you go back to the photographs on #189 you may just find a clue depending on how observant you are.

Bj.

2005390296_Fiatstuff.jpeg.b8239209f2f2213a684e68a2776174cf.jpeg

734119702_Fiat510Partsbook9.jpeg.13a8dd0748c77c002eacfefafe9c836e.jpeg

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)

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2 hours ago, oldcar said:

There is an old song/saying "Little things mean a lot". For some one brought up on British cars with their "Simms Couplings" as the almost infinitely adjustable magneto drive it came as something of a shock that despite looking everywhere I could not find anything similar coupling on the Fiat engine. Just a flat disc without even one hole in it. I clould not find any reference to a Magneto coupling in even one of the three "owners" hand books and the diagram in the "Spare parts book" did not help.

The "driven" plate on the magneto is similar but at least it has three evenly spaced holes in it. 

I will come back to the mystery of the Magneto coupling  shortly,  meanwhile I have another little Fiat trick for you to sort out.

This strange looking "bolt" is a genuine original Fiat part No 38500 as shown in the Parts Book (below).

What is it and how does it work? If you go back to the photographs on #189 you may just find a clue depending on how observant you are.

Bj.

2005390296_Fiatstuff.jpeg.b8239209f2f2213a684e68a2776174cf.jpeg

734119702_Fiat510Partsbook9.jpeg.13a8dd0748c77c002eacfefafe9c836e.jpeg

 

So it lines up with the serrations on the dynamo? And adjusts the chain tension.

 

Not sure of I have asked this question before - Are the bolts on the 501 metric or imperial?  My early 2B engine had lots of Whitworth stuff in it.

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Top marks NZCN.

The "thread" around the body of the dynamo is clearer in this photograph. Basically it works as a worm & wheel. The smaller thread is for the nut that clamps it  all in place. The Commutater shaft is offset, so as the body of the Dynamo is turned the drive chain is tightened or slackened.

 

N.B. Just make sure that the threads that you are taking as Whitworth are not Pre-WW2 Metric coarse. They look much the same until you put a thread gauge on them. Also Pre-WW2 Metric used odd numbers (7-9-11 etc) while the Modern Metric uses even numbers (8-10-12 etc) for diameters. Often Whitworth nuts will go on so far and begin to run-out after three or four turns. Eventually they will destroy the thread on the bolt or in the nut or sometimes both. These days it is almost impossible to buy "Odd number metric taps and dies. You need to cultivate a friend who works on Bugattis.  This is a very good reason not to throw out old nuts and bolts from your Pre  WW2 cars.276084480_FiatGenerator1.jpg.3f0107590e0d5ec65184fbad2ca1afea.jpg

 

Why is it so?

At what many people would consider an advanced age, I am delighted to say that I am still learning. Some of the people reading this already know me but I am sure that there are very few who could say that they actually know what motivates me!

For virtually my entire adult life I have sought out and bought cars that someone else has pulled apart. In most cases when I say pulled apart, I mean really dismantled! Not just taken the engine out and left it but have taken virtually everything down to its individual pieces. Not only this but more often than not the car will be an obscure make. The American “Dixie Flyer” was a classic example; made in Louisville, Kentucky, they were made only between 1917 and 1923 and then in limited numbers. So much so that there thought to be just four of five still existing. The “car” i bought had been taken apart out in the open over a period of years by young children who having dismantled some thing simply dropped it on the ground and moved on to next component.

While both built and surviving in far greater numbers, my current project car, a 1924 Fiat 501 is still no less a challenge. It in fact could  be more accurately described as someone else’s collection of “bits”. There is even some doubt that  it ever existed as a car. The person I bought it from is reputed to have spend a number of years going to the major “Swap-meets” or as my English friends would say “Auto-jumbles”. Either way he simply bought anything that was labelled as coming from a Fiat 501. He took these treasurers home and stored them in his shed. What I had bought was the result of forty or fifty years of collecting. Coming back to the present day, up until now I have never owned or even seriously looked at a Fiat 501. While included in the boxes of bits were three “Owners Hand books including one in the original Italian, none of them give detailed information about the make up of individual components, I have also obtained a copy of an original “Parts Book”, this at least gives “exploded drawings” of most of the major components BUT it does not go into detail as to how the individual “parts” are actually assembled. This is left to the owners imagination.

Let me give you a typical example, The Fiat 501 has the generator or dynamo, chain driven from the front of the camshaft, within the timing case.

Looking at the parts book it shows part number 38500 but really gives no explanation as to why it is included on this page. While sorting through a container of rusty nuts and bolts I had come across this strange “stepped” bolt. Looking at it in isolation it was something unremarkable and I almost dismissed it as the work of some demented person with no possible use or value. Fortunately I did not “consign it to the “Bin’ but cleaned it up on the wire brush and put it to one side.

Having assembled the motor I got to the point that I could put the timing case back onto the front of the engine but before I could do this I needed to fit the generator drive chain. But before fitting the generator I needed to clean and check it.  In the process I noticed that it had a strange ring of thread like marks around the outer case. Old car parts often have nasty accidents at one time or another during their extended lives so I took little or no notice of this. Having reassembled the generator I could fit it into the “support” cast into the crank case. With this done I could fit the chain. To adjust the chain tension, the generator which has an offset commutator rotates in the housing, This brings me back to that stepped bolt that was very nearly thrown into the bin. This has in fact two purposes. The main task it performs is to clamp the generator in place. the secondary task brings both the coarse section of thread and the strange marking around the body of the generator into play. In effect it is a worm and wheel which actually rotates the generator in its housing, in the process adjusting the tension on the drive chain. The second smaller thread is used in conjunction with its nut to clamp the generator is place.

This is of course just one tiny example of  why I am at almost 82 years old, still fascinated with task of bringing yet another “basket case” back to life.

 

Bernie j.

 

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)

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One of the things about old motor cars and working on them is that you never stop learning. I find that discovering the problem solving approach of early Automotive Engineers incredible. In todays Electronic Age we tend to forget that only a single lifetime away, none of the stuff that makes our lives so easy and comfortable even existed. Every time I pick up another piece there is something to excite my imagination. Just think about it, what would life be if some time a few hundred years ago some unknown genius had not designed and made the first wheel.

Perhaps it is just me but I hope not.

Bernie j.

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